Firesong she/her Posted August 9, 2023 Author Posted August 9, 2023 3 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Right. I took that to mean their Cognitive Self (an application of identity) became discorporated - but it could not have been separated from the rest of their Spiritweb in the SR or Painter's Climax fails. I took his painting of them as the people they actually had been to be reconnecting their Cognitive Identity to their Spiritual Identity. That allowed their discorparated Cognitive Self to reform from the Shroud (as seen) So, I can agree that the Cognitive Identity was broken down and incorporated into the Shroud, the part I do not agree with is that their Spiritweb lost its Identity. I hope that makes sense to somebody besides me. . . Well, Spiritwebs are able to lose Identity via things like Feruchemy. So it isn't impossible, fits with how we already know things to work. And that does help with how easy they are to change with the perception of only one person.
alder24 Posted August 9, 2023 Posted August 9, 2023 6 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Right. I took that to mean their Cognitive Self (an application of identity) became discorporated - but it could not have been separated from the rest of their Spiritweb in the SR or Painter's Climax fails. I took his painting of them as the people they actually had been to be reconnecting their Cognitive Identity to their Spiritual Identity. That allowed their discorparated Cognitive Self to reform from the Shroud (as seen) So, I can agree that the Cognitive Identity was broken down and incorporated into the Shroud, the part I do not agree with is that their Spiritweb lost its Identity. I hope that makes sense to somebody besides me. . . It's possible he brings back their Identity, but I think his perception reinforces their personality, overwriting the will of the machine and allowing them to stay like that, as now there is someone else that remembers them as they were, that knows who they were and who they are. I think this is more likely than bringing back their Identity somehow. 1
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted August 9, 2023 Posted August 9, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Right. I took that to mean their Cognitive Self (an application of identity) became discorporated - but it could not have been separated from the rest of their Spiritweb in the SR or Painter's Climax fails. I took his painting of them as the people they actually had been to be reconnecting their Cognitive Identity to their Spiritual Identity. That allowed their discorparated Cognitive Self to reform from the Shroud (as seen) So, I can agree that the Cognitive Identity was broken down and incorporated into the Shroud, the part I do not agree with is that their Spiritweb lost its Identity. I hope that makes sense to somebody besides me. . . I don't know that Cognitive Identity (with a capital I) is a thing. They had their personalities all along, even if their minds weren't in a proper state to think clearly or express it. Nightmare Painting isn't an Invested Art, it isn't really doing anything using Investiture, which would have been required to reConnect them to their Identity, if it even still exists somewhere in the SR or Beyond. I think it's more that his Painting them into their actual forms is mimicking what the FM was doing: keeping a grip on them to make them manifest as they should be (original personalities, bodies, etc), but allowing them to go about as they would have of their own volition. By forcing them into their actual bodies, he was helping them remember who they are and think clearer. They were already stabilized by the FM, but since his attention wasn't on them, they could act for themselves, once Painter reminded them who they really are. Alder described it really well, he was reinforcing their personality with his own perception, and since the FM had given them substance but wasn't forcing his own will on them, they basically reverted back to normal people, if Cognitive Shadows. Edited August 9, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper
Leuthie Posted August 10, 2023 Posted August 10, 2023 On 7/28/2023 at 5:18 PM, Nitpicking said: Yeah, manifesting a Shardpaintbrush while in the Cognitive Realm isn't using Investiture at all. /s Fine. Painter didn't collect and shape Investiture in the process of painting to change Nightmares into less dangerous shapes. Technically, everything is Investiture, so everything you do is using Investiture. When you're existing as a Cognitive entity, you can't do anything without using Investiture. So you're absolutely right. I need to be more precise with my use of language and my description.
MasterK-Bob he/him Posted October 10, 2023 Posted October 10, 2023 No one posted on this in a while but I think the question of what Yumi is, and whether cognitive shadows are souls or copies, is kind of like a ship of Theseus question. What was originally there is replaced with different investiture, but I suspect the investiture was always dynamic and very slightly flowing in and out of all beings. There's just a much bigger faster plank-replacement when a being becomes a cognitive shadow, and that plank replacement usually happens in place of ceasing to exist as such (though, the matter, energy, and investiture remain) in the non-Beyond. I don't think matter, energy, or investiture ever go to the Beyond. What goes there is something else, though it's closely connected to the Spiritual Realm. I think the closest we ever get to the Beyond is what Dalinar did to allow Kaladin to interact with Tien, but I think that's more like Tien still existing in the Spiritual Realm, which is also really him and more connected to the Beyond to the extent that anything is. I don't know what I'm saying. I say that what came back really is Yumi. My big question is whether she got a downgrade in the amount of investiture she used to have in the process of turning investiture into the matter for a real body.
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