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Piercing copperclouds


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I love Copper. I think copper is one of the strongest allomantic metals out there and I think it will have uses that stretch far beyond what we are used to as the cosmere opens up. I also think it gets a bad reputation sometimes. 

In my mind I like to think of copper as a sliding bar for use. I would love to imagine that someone practiced with copper would be able to shrink and grow their coppercloud focusing its power on smaller areas or spreading it more thinly over larger areas. But does copper really kill the other metals uses?  

I think I remember part of one of the books where it talked about not using copper all the time because then you can't seek and you can't manipulate people as much. But does it really? We see that every metal is a sliding bar. We see every metal can be flared for greater effect or barely burned at all for the most precise touches. Why not copper? 

Can a mistborn flare bronze and tone down their copper burn to seek outside of their cloud? Can a coppercloud be focused with more strength directly around the user while still having a smaller effect outside of that area?  Could a mistborn make a coppercloud that is just big enough to cover a room or home and, though it may make seeking in that home impossible, still be able to hear and feel pulses outside of the home?  

As for zinc and brass, can a coppercloud focus a strong enough cloud to keep themselves immune while titrating the cloud enough to still be able to get some effect through it ending in slight manipulation of those near them while still causing a cloud?  

Spoiler

Copper seems like it is going to have larger implications. I think the biggest taunt of a WOB that I have read has to be that copperclouds will do something to spren and then not explaining further!

But I also think that it is easy to slap this false idea that copper is all or nothing and while using it you cant use half of your other abilities. I agree there should be some play around with it but titrating up and down and flaring vs keeping a low burn should really allow a lot of wiggle room right?

Edited by Tamriel Wolfsbaine
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2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think I remember part of one of the books where it talked about not using copper all the time because then you can't seek and you can't manipulate people as much.

Correct on the Seeking, wrong on the Rioting/Soothing.

More specifically, Bronze (in a normal situation) can't see into or out of a Coppercloud. Vin could Seek from inside one for the same reason she could pierce a Coppercloud. Rioting and Soothing definitely work through a coppercloud (just not on the Smoker themselves), as shown in TFE Ch 10:

Spoiler

“Secure,” Ham said. “But I’ve got Tineyes on the corners just in case. Your bolt-exit is behind that hatch in the corner.”

Breeze nodded, and Ham turned, looking at Clubs’s apprentice. “You Smoking back there, Cobble?”

The boy nodded.

“Good lad,” Ham said. “That’s everything, then. Now we just have to wait for Kell’s speech.”

<snip>

Breeze turned slightly. “Rudd, send in the blue server, please.”

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Can a mistborn flare bronze and tone down their copper burn to seek outside of their cloud?

Not confirmed (and unlikely that it creates enough disparity). What is confirmed is that Duralumin/Nicrosil enhanced Bronze can pierce a cloud.

Spoiler
Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

If you are Smoked, you can't Seek.

KChan (paraphrased)

[Brandon] told me that because burning copper creates an Allomantic dead zone, so to speak, everything inside it is effectively silenced. This prevents pulses from reaching Seekers who are outside the cloud, but it also prevents anyone inside the cloud from receiving any pulses whatsoever. The reason Vin could do this is because of her earring.

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Can bronze+duralumin pierce copperclouds for a split second?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, for an instant.

A copper Misting is known as a Coppercloud or Smoker. When an Allomancer is burning copper, the pulses from nearby Allomancers cannot be detected by most Seekers.[1] Allomancers with a Hemalurgic spike that enhances their natural ability with bronze, genetically more powerful Allomancers, such as those created with lerasium, and bronze savants are all capable of "piercing" a coppercloud.[2][3] Nicrosil can also allow a Mistborn or a Seeker to pierce a coppercloud for a brief moment; duralumin would also work for a Mistborn.[4] Multiple Smokers burning copper in the same area will make the resulting coppercloud harder to pierce.[5] As few Allomancers have the ability to pierce a coppercloud, Smokers are of central importance when Allomancers are trying to hide. If a Seeker is inside of a coppercloud, they will be unable to receive any pulses from the outside.[6] Copper is the slowest burning metal of the basic eight Allomantic metals.[7] Non-Mistborn Spoilers:

Spoiler

Copperclouds can also block other uses of Investiture. On Scadrial, this is most commonly seen in its ability to protect the user from emotional Allomancy;[8] protecting others in the cloud's boundaries is very difficult but not impossible.[9] Copperclouds also block other methods of detecting Investiture, such as an Awakener's life sense or a secretspren's ability to sense the use of Investiture.[10][11] Additionally, a coppercloud can interfere with more passive uses of Investiture; for example, it can prevent a singer from attuning a Rhythm and affects how spren act.[12][13]

 

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

As for zinc and brass, can a coppercloud focus a strong enough cloud to keep themselves immune while titrating the cloud enough to still be able to get some effect through it ending in slight manipulation of those near them while still causing a cloud?  

Not a factor as clouds don't prevent Zinc or Brass - only the Smoker is immune.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

But I also think that it is easy to slap this false idea that copper is all or nothing and while using it you cant use half of your other abilities.

The only ability inhibited by Copper is Bronze, and only if the Seeker can't pierce a cloud.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:
Spoiler

I think the biggest taunt of a WOB that I have read has to be that copperclouds will do something to spren and then not explaining further!

 

This needs a spoiler tag in the Mistborn Forum (only Cosmere Discussion is not limited to references for it's section) - so anything non-Mistborn needs a spoiler tag, or ask the Mods to move the thread to Cosmere Discussion where spoiler tags are only needed for new releases/preview material.

Edited by Treamayne
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10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Can a mistborn flare bronze and tone down their copper burn to seek outside of their cloud? Can a coppercloud be focused with more strength directly around the user while still having a smaller effect outside of that area?  Could a mistborn make a coppercloud that is just big enough to cover a room or home and, though it may make seeking in that home impossible, still be able to hear and feel pulses outside of the home?  

Making a weaker coppercloud would expose you to any Seeker and Mistborn in the area - they would be now stronger and would be also able to piece your coppercloud. Moreover your seeking would be weaker even if you pierce your cloud - Vin felt weaker pulses from assassins than normally. You can do it, but there are downsides to it which makes it less useful.

Coppercloud is like a wave absorbing material, like a silent room - while inside you can't hear anything outside and inside it as well (as a Seeker), if something inside a cloud emits waves, you can't hear them outside. So you can't make clouds like you described, they are uniform in the area they affect. You can make stronger or weaker clouds (as every metal can be burned on a sliding scale - WoB), but you can't make it "stronger around you, weaker outside" - it's uniform strength.

So if you make a normal cloud - you can't sense through it with bronze. If you make a weaker cloud, you might be able to pierce it with bronze and sense everything weaker, but you will be susceptible to Seekers and Mistborn as they would also be able to pierce your cloud (even Rioters and Soothers might be able to break through it and manipulate your emotions slightly). 

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