Dalinar's Realization

[Caval]

Dalinar's realizarion in chapter 59 that his feeling that everyone almost wants him to pull out the sword is partially a matter of his own perception. As he fails to quickly get people on his side in Oathbringer and the monarchs are dodging his inquiries he begins to feel like people are almost asking him to take a more violent path. In a way this comes to a head in Theylenah. He realizes that many factions in the kingdom still resist working with him because they fear him conquering them. His initial choice is to intimidate them, to show them he is so capable that if he is not coming in stabbing them that shows he intends to be peaceful. It is a ploy which he is familiar with, one that relies on fear. He has begun to feel uncomfortable with this, but cannot think of any other way. He then thinks of another direction and also realizes he needs advice from many types of people with different perspectives as his limited perspective has so failed him. He is what his life and choices have made him. He grew up in a military culture and had incredible skill as a soldier and a general that he kept working on throughout his life. He made a reputation for violence and war within an already warlike people. That he has the reputation he does and also fails initially to find paths to convince people without violence is a product of his origin and his actions throughout his life. I'll let some quotes from the chapter say the rest.

Quote

Why couldn’t he ever convince anyone peacefully? Why couldn’t he get people to listen without first pounding them bloody—or, conversely, shocking them with his own wounds?

Quote

Storms. Does everything I imagine have to be about destruction? About dying, broken bodies, smoke in the air and blood on the stones?

The warmth inside of him said that it did not.

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A hand touched his arm; Navani’s soft fingers. “Dalinar … what did you do?” “I listened.” The power was good for far, far more than breaking. We’ve been ignoring that. We’ve been ignoring answers right in front of our eyes.

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Dalinar knew that feeling: the lingering effects of Stormlight. “I should have seen it earlier—I should have sent for him the moment I saw those wounded. I’m a fool.” Dalinar shook his head. “Renarin has the ability to heal. He is new to his powers, as I am to mine, and can best heal those who were recently wounded. I wonder if it’s similar to what I’m doing. Once the soul grows accustomed to the wound, it’s much harder to fix.”

Quote

“I think like an Alethi, as do most of my advisors. We consider the war, the conflict, but miss important facts. When I first learned of Renarin’s powers, I thought only of restoring people on the battlefield to continue the fight. I need you; I need the Azish. I need a coalition of leaders who see what I don’t, because we’re facing an enemy that doesn’t think like any we’ve faced before.” He bowed his head to her. “Please. Join me, Fen.”

Quote

“Try me,” Dalinar said. “I’m starting to appreciate that the way I usually do things has severe limitations.”

 

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Caval said:

Dalinar's realizarion in chapter 59 that his feeling that everyone almost wants him to pull out the sword is partially a matter of his own perception. As he fails to quickly get people on his side in Oathbringer and the monarchs are dodging his inquiries he begins to feel like people are almost asking him to take a more violent path.

I don't think this is a matter of his own perception. It's because people don't know about this new Dalinar. They only know Dalinar the Blackthorn, not Dalinar the Bondsmith. They know Dalinar who is violent, eager to fight and constantly awaiting a war, not Dalinar who wants to talk, use nice words and diplomacy to gain allies. Kings and Queens were just confused, because this wasn't the Dalinar they knew about. They couldn't recognize him at all, therefore they suspected a plot. They thought that Dalinar the Blackthorn just wanted them to open their gates before his army using nice and soft words, and then he would conquer them from the inside. That's what they all feared, because they never met Dalinar the Bondsmith.

They don't want Dalinar to get bloody and violent, but that Dalinar is familiar to them, they know him and understand him, they're more comfortable with that Dalinar the Blackthorn, then with Dalinar the Bondsmith.

It's best said in Dalinar's first meeting with Queen Fen in his vision. She didn’t trust his nice words, they were fake to her, she only began to realize this is the new and real Dalinar when he started to shout at her. OB ch 32:

Quote

“Fine,” she snapped. “Fine, Kholin. You want to dig into it for real? Tell me this. You really expect me to believe that the storming Knights Radiant are back and that the Almighty chose you—a tyrant and a murderer—to lead them?”

In response, Dalinar stood up and drew in Stormlight. His skin began glowing with luminescent smoke, drifting from his body. “If you wish proof, I can persuade you. Incredible though it seems, the Radiants have returned.”
“And of the second part? Yes, there is a new storm, and perhaps new manifestations of power. Fine. What I don’t accept is that you, Dalinar Kholin, have been told by the Almighty to lead us.”
“I have been commanded to unite.”
"A mandate from God—the very same argument the Hierocracy used for seizing control of the government. What about Sadees, the Sunmaker? He claimed he had a calling from the Almighty too.” She stood and walked among the people of the town—who stood as if frozen, barely moving. She turned and swept a hand back toward Dalinar. “Now here you are, saying the same things in the same way—not quite threats, but insistent. Let us join forces! If we don’t, the world is doomed."
Dalinar felt his patience slipping. He clenched his jaw, forced himself to be calm, and rose. “Your Majesty, you’re being irrational.”
“Am I? Oh, let me storming reconsider, then. All I need to do is let the storming Blackthorn himself into my city, so he can take control of my armies!”
“What would you have me do?” Dalinar shouted. “Would you have me watch the world crumble?” She cocked her head at his outburst. “Maybe you’re right, and I am a tyrant! Maybe letting my armies into your city is a terrible risk. But maybe you don’t have good options! Maybe all the good men are dead, so all you have is me! Spitting into the storm isn’t going to change that, Fen. You can risk possibly being conquered by the Alethi, or you can definitely fall to the Voidbringer assault alone!”
Curiously, Fen crossed her arms and raised her left hand to her chin, inspecting Dalinar. She didn’t seem the least bit fazed by his shouting. Dalinar stepped past a squat man who was slowly—as if through tar— turning toward where they’d once been seated. “Fen,” Dalinar said. “You don’t like me. Fine. You tell me to my face that trusting me is worse than a Desolation.”
She studied him, aged eyes thoughtful. What was wrong? What had he said?
“Fen,” he tried again. “I—”
“Where was this passion earlier?” she asked. “Why didn’t you speak like this in your letters to me?”
“I … Fen, I was being diplomatic.” She sniffed.
“That made it sound like I was talking to a committee. It’s what one always assumes anyway, when communicating via spanreed.”
“So?”
“So compared to that, it’s good to hear some honest shouting.”

[...]

“Fen,” he said, “you say you expected to talk to a committee through the spanreed. What’s wrong with that? Why would you want me to shout at you instead?”
“I don’t want you to shout at me, Kholin,” she said. “But storms, man. Don’t you know what has been said about you these last few months?”
“No.”
“You’ve been the hottest topic on the spanreed informant networks! Dalinar Kholin, the Blackthorn, has gone mad! He claims to have killed the Almighty! One day he refuses to fight, then the next day he marches his armies off on an insane quest into the Shattered Plains. He says he’s going to enslave the Voidbringers!”
“I didn’t say—”
“Nobody expects every report to be true, Dalinar, but I had extremely good information claiming you’d lost your mind. Refounding the Knights Radiant? Raving about a Desolation? You seized the throne of Alethkar in all but title, but refused to fight the other highprinces, and instead ran your armies off into the Weeping. Then you told everyone a new storm was coming. That was enough to convince me that you really were mad.”
“But then the storm came,” Dalinar said.
“But then the storm came"

[...]

All I knew,” Fen said, “was that the voice on the other end of the spanreed was not the Dalinar Kholin I’d expected. The words were too polite, too calm, to be trusted.”
“And now?” Dalinar asked. Fen turned.
“Now … I’ll consider."

[...]

“Because,” Dalinar said, “I know how to talk to her now. She doesn’t want polite words or diplomatic phrases. She wants me to be myself. I’m fairly certain that’s something I can deliver.”

 

Other than that I agree. He can't find a way to diplomatically unite Rosharan leaders quickly, because of his violent past and reputation. He doesn't know the way of diplomacy, only the way of war. He was just learning how to unite without starting a fight.

[Caval]

@alder24

I wasn't claiming that all of it was his own perception, but specifically the idea that the way that they were responding to him was almost asking him to be violent, that the choice was between slow and ineffective politics and diplomacy with people who won't listen or fast violence that gets what you need, what the world needs, from an unwilling people. It was, in part, because of his experience in war and inexperience elsewhere that he felt so stiffled by his failures and took a while to find other paths that lead to success (though the use of the visions was inspired). He was in that position in part because of his reputation and his country's reputation throughout the centuries, and of course rumors of his madness, but even without that reputation there would be people in various countries resistant to his push for unity, at the very least hoping unity could come on their terms rather than his. He would feel stiffled and limited in options in that type of situation too, even if less so. That we would feel so restricted would in part be a result of his perception trained by his experience and inexperience.

They were unfamiliar with his diplomatic persona and that made some uncomfortable. They probably felt, in the back of their mind, that Dalinar is a wolf so the fact that he looks like a nice sheep means that there is trickery afoot. Indeed, it is not all his own perception. They certainly didn't want Dalinar the warmonger, but theh were uncomfortable with an unfamiliar Dalinar and waiting for the moment the "true Dalinar" comes out. It is still partially his own perception of things. He could not think of ways to communicate that diplomacy was his true goal effectively without resorting to his old ways and therefor felt like they almost wanted him to take that path, that they were forcing him into a corner, giving him no other option.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Caval

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Caval said:

He could not think of ways to communicate that diplomacy was his true goal effectively without resorting to his old ways and therefor felt like they almost wanted him to take that path, that they were forcing him into a corner, giving him no other option.

Until he finds the third option. When first meeting with the Azish and he begins to realize that he can think of negotiations and diplomacy in martial terms (making it easier for him to understand). (OB Ch 65)

Spoiler

A woman stepped forward, the many layers of her long, extravagant robes rustling as she walked. A matching hat completed the outfit. She was important, and perhaps planned to interpret for him herself.

Time for my first attack, Dalinar thought. He opened the packet that Fen had given him and removed four pieces of paper.

He presented them to the woman, and was pleased at the shock in her eyes.

<snip>

The viziers and scions finished reading, then turned toward Dalinar, lowering the pages he’d given them. He had heeded Queen Fen’s plan, trusting that he couldn’t bully his way through Azir with a sword. Instead, he had brought a different kind of weapon.

An essay.

<snip>

Which, hopefully, would make it perfect for the Azish. And if it wasn’t quite sufficient … well, Dalinar knew never to go into battle without fresh troops in reserve.

“Your Highness,” Noura said, “as impressed as we are that you cared to learn our language—and even considering the compelling argument presented here—we think it best if…”

She trailed off as Dalinar reached in his packet and withdrew a second sheaf of papers, six pages this time. He held them up before the group like a raised banner, then proffered them. A nearby guard jumped back, making his mail jingle.

<snip>

Well, he didn’t know much about essays, but he had an instinct for combat. When your opponent was gasping for breath, you didn’t let him get back up. You rammed your sword right into his throat.

Dalinar reached into his packet and removed the last paper inside: a single sheet written on front and back. He held it up between his first two fingers. The Azish watched it with wide eyes, as if he’d revealed a glowing gemstone of incalculable wealth.

This time Vizier Noura herself stepped forward and took it. “ ‘Verdict,’ ” she read from the top. “ ‘By Jasnah Kholin.’ ”

The others pushed through the guards, gathering around, and began reading it to themselves. Though this was the shortest of the essays, he heard them whispering and marveling over it.

<snip>

 He spread his hands to the sides. “Do not send me back immediately. Let us talk as allies, not men in a battlefield tent of parley.”

“I will bring these essays before the Prime and his formal council,” Vizier Noura finally said. “I admit he seems fond of you, despite your inexplicable invasion of his dreams. Come with us.”

 

[Letryx13]

15 hours ago, Caval said:

Dalinar's realizarion in chapter 59 that his feeling that everyone almost wants him to pull out the sword is partially a matter of his own perception. As he fails to quickly get people on his side in Oathbringer and the monarchs are dodging his inquiries he begins to feel like people are almost asking him to take a more violent path. In a way this comes to a head in Theylenah. He realizes that many factions in the kingdom still resist working with him because they fear him conquering them. His initial choice is to intimidate them, to show them he is so capable that if he is not coming in stabbing them that shows he intends to be peaceful. It is a ploy which he is familiar with, one that relies on fear. He has begun to feel uncomfortable with this, but cannot think of any other way. He then thinks of another direction and also realizes he needs advice from many types of people with different perspectives as his limited perspective has so failed him. He is what his life and choices have made him. He grew up in a military culture and had incredible skill as a soldier and a general that he kept working on throughout his life. He made a reputation for violence and war within an already warlike people. That he has the reputation he does and also fails initially to find paths to convince people without violence is a product of his origin and his actions throughout his life. I'll let some quotes from the chapter say the rest.

 

 

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think this is a matter of his own perception. It's because people don't know about this new Dalinar. They only know Dalinar the Blackthorn, not Dalinar the Bondsmith. They know Dalinar who is violent, eager to fight and constantly awaiting a war, not Dalinar who wants to talk, use nice words and diplomacy to gain allies. Kings and Queens were just confused, because this wasn't the Dalinar they knew about. They couldn't recognize him at all, therefore they suspected a plot. They thought that Dalinar the Blackthorn just wanted them to open their gates before his army using nice and soft words, and then he would conquer them from the inside. That's what they all feared, because they never met Dalinar the Bondsmith.

They don't want Dalinar to get bloody and violent, but that Dalinar is familiar to them, they know him and understand him, they're more comfortable with that Dalinar the Blackthorn, then with Dalinar the Bondsmith.

It's best said in Dalinar's first meeting with Queen Fen in his vision. She didn’t trust his nice words, they were fake to her, she only began to realize this is the new and real Dalinar when he started to shout at her. OB ch 32:

 

Other than that I agree. He can't find a way to diplomatically unite Rosharan leaders quickly, because of his violent past and reputation. He doesn't know the way of diplomacy, only the way of war. He was just learning how to unite without starting a fight.

I think you're both right.  Dalinar was a soldier for decades, and struggled from the start of trying to be a politician, even when trying to work with the other High Princes.  And that was in a clearly understood war.  Until he figured out how to think like a politician, but in a military mindset at the sometime, he had a hard time talking to people as a politician.  But at the same time, everyone knew him as a near savage man.  People usually don't trust something that seems completely inconsistent to them, such as a man known for being a violent soldier talking to them diplomatically.  He needed to learn to be both diplomatic while still being himself in order to communicate with other politicians.

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Until he finds the third option. When first meeting with the Azish and he begins to realize that he can think of negotiations and diplomacy in martial terms (making it easier for him to understand). (OB Ch 65)

Agreed.  It's something another King in the comere, although this one a philosopher turned king turned soldier, had trouble balancing.  But once he found out how balance both his military style mind with politics, he had a great deal more success.

[Caval]

26 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Agreed.  It's something another King in the comere, although this one a philosopher turned king turned soldier, had trouble balancing.  But once he found out how balance both his military style mind with politics, he had a great deal more success.

Spoiler

I am not completely sure, but are you referring to Elend? There are not all too many cosmere kings and none of the others seem to fit that description from what I remember. 

 

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, Caval said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I am not completely sure, but are you referring to Elend? There are not all too many cosmere kings and none of the others seem to fit that description from what I remember. 

Yes, he's the one I mean.  I see a lot of parallels between him and Dalinar, although they start out on opposite sides of the spectrum, struggling to find the right middle ground.

 

[Caval]

@Letryx13

That rings true. He is someone who starts with all these ideas and struggles with how to actualize them in a troubled world that is slow to change in some important ways and has difficulties that force such aims to be sidetracked.

Dalinar struggles in a world that is both stubborn in its ways and changing faster than he can manage. He changed to a person who truly holds to high ideals, yet struggles to actualize them in the world. He thinks that a world where the right to rule is implicitly strength of arms is one where true unity is impossible and honor always too far to reach. Yet, at the same time he is a military man and a natural power seeker and tyrant. He doesn't trust others to do things properly, especially when he doesn't understand what they are doing and why. He sees a world shifting away from the dynamic of king truly at the top and towards law and negotiation. In part this is the only thing that can truly align with his ideals, but it makes him uncomfortable all the same. Learning to read was a major step and his discomfort at fighting all the more forces him to seek another path. I hope in book 5, and maybe a bit so beyond that, we can see a Dalinar more fully coming into his own as a politician and diplomat. He has truly entered that world already.

 

This is an oversimplification of both, especially the first which I did not wish to discuss too much on a post and section of the forum unrelated to him, but  it says something all the same.