AllomanticIron Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 Technical question about identity and shardblades: If a shardbearer were to fill an aluminummind, then someone else took it and tapped the shardbearer's identity from it, would they be able to summon the other person's shardblade? Since they technically now have their spiritual identity? Not sure whether this has been asked or not.
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 1 minute ago, AllomanticIron said: Technical question about identity and shardblades: If a shardbearer were to fill an aluminummind, then someone else took it and tapped the shardbearer's identity from it, would they be able to summon the other person's shardblade? Since they technically now have their spiritual identity? Not sure whether this has been asked or not. Take that aluminummind and give it to an aluminum compounder. Then have the surge binder and the compounder both attempt to summon the blade at once. Would the spren be ripped in and and both summoners only get a half a sword?
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 I'm 99% sure tapping someone else's Identity is technically impossible. You can tap other people's Metalminds by having the attribute stored in the Metalmind be Identityless. That applies to everything but Identity itself, which you can't Unkey because what's the point of tapping Identityless Identity? If it can be formed at all, it's just blank Investiture, since the thing it was supposed to be supplying necessarily has to be erased for you to be able to store it in the first place. Besides, it hasn't been canonised yet whether or not an Aluminummind actually stores Identity, or if the Identity being stored just vanishes 2
alder24 Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 8 hours ago, AllomanticIron said: Technical question about identity and shardblades: If a shardbearer were to fill an aluminummind, then someone else took it and tapped the shardbearer's identity from it, would they be able to summon the other person's shardblade? Since they technically now have their spiritual identity? Not sure whether this has been asked or not. No, because a Shardblade isn't bound to one's identity, but it's Connected to his soul. You can't tap Shardbearer's identity and summon his Shardblade. If a Shardbearer were to store his Connection to his Shardblade in unkeyed duraluminmind, give it to somebody else, then maybe that person would be able to summon Shardbearer's Shardblade. 1
Duxredux he/him Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I'm 99% sure tapping someone else's Identity is technically impossible. You can tap other people's Metalminds by having the attribute stored in the Metalmind be Identityless. That applies to everything but Identity itself, which you can't Unkey because what's the point of tapping Identityless Identity? If it can be formed at all, it's just blank Investiture, since the thing it was supposed to be supplying necessarily has to be erased for you to be able to store it in the first place. Besides, it hasn't been canonised yet whether or not an Aluminummind actually stores Identity, or if the Identity being stored just vanishes If it is possible, it would probably involve storing all of your own Identity first, which VenDell thought may let you tap another person's metalmind. That said, I don't think we've seen someone tapping and storing the same attribute simultaneously which could be trivial or highly complicated. If storing and tapping is simple, it would let a feruchemist withdraw from an unsealed metalmind or an unkeyed metalmind and rekeying it to themselves. And yup, it's Connection you want for spren bonds.
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 24 minutes ago, Duxredux said: If it is possible, it would probably involve storing all of your own Identity first, which VenDell thought may let you tap another person's metalmind. It may well let you access other people's Metalminds. However, trying to Unkey Identity itself is like trying to store Strengthless strength in a Pewtermind by Storing all of your strength into one Pewtermind, then trying to store even more in a separate one. At worst it won't work, at best you're going to divert some of the attribute going into the first metalmind into the second where both are exactly the same. You can't even create Investiture that isn't keyed to any attribute that way, since you'd already be using up all of the thing you're converting by totally filling that first Metalmind. In my example that's strength, but that also applies to Identity. 24 minutes ago, Duxredux said: That said, I don't think we've seen someone tapping and storing the same attribute simultaneously which could be trivial or highly complicated. If storing and tapping is simple, it would let a feruchemist withdraw from an unsealed metalmind or an unkeyed metalmind and rekeying it to themselves. You can do it, it's just not very useful. The only use I can think of it right now is to near-instantly transfer an attribute from one metalmind into another, by simultaneously tapping it from one and storing it into another. Some attribute is lost, but not that much. You could do that to an Unkeyed Metalmind and key all of the attribute to yourself. You could tap and store it in the same Metalmind to Key all of the Investiture to yourself, which is what I assume you were describing. WoB: Quote Lightning If you have a metalmind, you have, like, weight stored in it, and you want to transfer it to a different metalmind, can you just transfer it directly? Or does it pass into you, and then you lose some of the power, and then it goes... Brandon Sanderson You don't have to draw it completely out. You are gonna lose a little in the transfer. But it's not as much as you probably think. You can kind of do a little hack thing where it goes through. Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 34 minutes ago, Duxredux said: If it is possible, it would probably involve storing all of your own Identity first, which VenDell thought may let you tap another person's metalmind. That said, I don't think we've seen someone tapping and storing the same attribute simultaneously which could be trivial or highly complicated. If storing and tapping is simple, it would let a feruchemist withdraw from an unsealed metalmind or an unkeyed metalmind and rekeying it to themselves. And yup, it's Connection you want for spren bonds. I think the key is having 2 different metalminds. Tin is a great example for something that can be tapped and stored in at the same time... but it is not the same metalmind. Tapping your sense of feeling while storing your sense of pain would be a great use. Tapping hearing while storing sight because its dark in a cave could also be a good example. In the case of aluminum minds... to have an identity in one metalmind and tap it while storing yours fully into another metalmind should be possible. I can fill up one bottle of water from the faucet while dumping another down the sink. Its hard to dump and fill the same one at the same time.
Duxredux he/him Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 1 minute ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: It may well let you access other people's Metalminds. However, trying to Unkey Identity itself is like trying to store Strengthless strength in a Pewtermind by Storing all of your strength into one Pewtermind, then trying to store even more in a separate one. At worst it won't work, at best you're going to divert some of the attribute going into the first metalmind into the second where both are exactly the same. You can't even create Investiture that isn't keyed to any attribute that way, since you'd already be using up all of the thing you're converting by totally filling that first Metalmind. In my example that's strength, but that also applies to Identity. I was more ambiguous than I meant to be. The person who wants to tap the Identity of the Knight Radiant would be the one storing their Identity before replacing it by tapping the Knight's Identity, not the Knight storing Identity-less Identity which as you said doesn't make sense.
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Duxredux said: I was more ambiguous than I meant to be. The person who wants to tap the Identity of the Knight Radiant would be the one storing their Identity before replacing it by tapping the Knight's Identity, not the Knight storing Identity-less Identity which as you said doesn't make sense. How would they tap the Knight's Identity though? They'd need the Unkeyed Identity of the Knight, which is impossible. Edit: And that's assuming that Aluminum actually holds a Feruchemical charge rather than just acting like a sink. Edited June 17, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper
Duxredux he/him Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: How would they tap the Knight's Identity though? They'd need the Unkeyed Identity of the Knight, which is impossible. No, they don't. It was in VenDell's recruitment powerpoint presentation in BoM, at least theoretically. If a Feruchemist were to blank their own Identity they would be able to use another Feruchemist's metalminds regardless of Identity locking. This was glazed over because it only allowed for a single person to do spectacular things like many Twinborn, whereas they were more focused on potential technology that could make anyone a Feruchemist. I'm paraphrasing since I listen to audiobooks. Edited June 17, 2023 by Duxredux clarity
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, Duxredux said: No, they don't. It was in VenDell's recruitment powerpoint presentation in BoM, at least theoretically. If a Feruchemist were to blank their own Identity they would be able to use another Feruchemist's metalminds even if they had been keyed to them. This was glazed over because it only allowed for a single person to do spectacular things like many Twinborn, whereas they were more focused on potential technology that could make anyone a Feruchemist. I'm paraphrasing since I listen to audiobooks. Oh, that's a lot more plausible. I still don't think it could work, and VenDell's idea hasn't been proven, but that's a lot more possible than I was originally thinking.
IlstrawberrySeed Posted June 20, 2023 Posted June 20, 2023 On 6/17/2023 at 8:16 AM, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Oh, that's a lot more plausible. I still don't think it could work, and VenDell's idea hasn't been proven, but that's a lot more possible than I was originally thinking. Brandon said the other way can work too when talking about keyless items vs keyless people, and also mentioned there are other ways than these. (Rasdium wire to a metalmind anyone?)
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 20, 2023 Posted June 20, 2023 Just now, IlstrawberrySeed said: Brandon said the other way can work too when talking about keyless items vs keyless people, and also mentioned there are other ways than these. Oh, sick. Provide the WoB please, I haven't seen any WoB talking about it before. Just now, IlstrawberrySeed said: (Rasdium wire to a metalmind anyone?) I assume you mean take the Investiture out of the Metalmind with a Raysium wire? You could maybe make that work by using Raysium to transfer the Investiture into a Primer Cube, but I can't think of any other way you can make that work. Raysium is also a very difficult metal to come by. It would work, but it'll be beyond the means of regular people, and it would be hard to standardize.
alder24 Posted June 20, 2023 Posted June 20, 2023 1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said: Brandon said the other way can work too when talking about keyless items vs keyless people, and also mentioned there are other ways than these. (Rasdium wire to a metalmind anyone?) 1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Oh, sick. Provide the WoB please, I haven't seen any WoB talking about it before. I don't think Brandon said unkeyed people can access keyed metalmind. It wouldn't make sense. Identity is a more or less unique encryption key. If you don't have any key, you can't access a metalmind requiring a specific key. If a metalmind doesn't have any key, every key fits, but no key works too. But VenDell said that an unkeyed Feruchemist might be able to access another Feruchemist's metalmind. Spoiler Paleo Then we also talked about, theorized about unkeyed metalminds - that is Identity-less ones that anybody can that has the power can tap. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Paleo We also were wondering is it like, we compared it to cryptography and encryption, stuff like that. Is it just that like, your Identity is sort of this unique encryption key. Brandon Sanderson And you need a key to you getting it. That's a valid line of theorizing. It is not exactly but it's close enough to be a good model. Paleo And would an unkeyed metalmind theoretically be capable of storing a little more than a keyed one. Brandon Sanderson Oh, because of yeah. Paleo Because it has to... Is it inherent to the Investiture or is it like an extra bit? Brandon Sanderson I'll RAFO that, mostly because I haven't considered that yet. Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019) Spoiler Questioner In Mistborn, we know if someone puts their Identity into a metalmind, they can create metalminds other people can use. Would other people be able to use that aluminummind to overwrite their own Identity, or is it still tied to the creator because it was still keyed to their Identity when they were filling it? Brandon Sanderson So if you have no Identity and you fill a metalmind, that metalmind is full of Identity-less... Questioner Yeah, so anyone can use that. But can someone use your aluminummind? Brandon Sanderson Ooh wait a minute, so...that you filled with your Identity. So they would have to have your Identity already. Questioner Ok, so you can't have two people fill Identity and effectively swap aluminumminds. Brandon Sanderson If you can...there are ways to make this happen but the best way to make what you're talking about happen, is to be filling your own Identity while having a blank metalmind. That is the best way, obviously. But there are other workarounds for both situations, like a blank metalmind is pretty easy to use. It's blank. But if you were blank, and using a blank, it's a little better. Questioner Ok. Because you're both blank. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, and so I'll give you the mechanics of all this eventually, they're just trying to still figure it all out themselves. Because right now they're just doing things they've been told "do this" but they don't know the why's. But if you are blank and have a metalmind that has an Identity, right, that is not an impossible situation that you're in either. Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016) This WoB said if you're blank it's hard to access keyed investiture, but the context makes me think it's about filling a blank and empty metalmind. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson So one of the things people have been asking about a lot the nature of Identity and its uses for accessing other people's metalminds, and things like this right. And I hedged a little bit when somebody asked me... *inaudible*...send people into spirals of confusion, so I'm gonna clarify it for now. So, someone comes in and says, we need a blank metalmind, anybody can use that. I'm like, yes but, the reason that it's a hedge is that you need to actually be a feruchemist to access it, right, you can't just hold the blank metalmind not being a feruchemist, even though it's somebody else's investiture that's been blanked, right. So people keep kind of missing this thing. I'm hedging in the sort of, you don't quite have it, I've kind of dodged it, but I worry that it's just going to be confusing. So the issue is, you need two things from one of these. You need something that makes you a feruchemist, and then you need a metalmind that somebody else has filled with blank investiture, ok. Now if you can get pure investiture, that can be used by anybody, regardless, ok, you need it in pure form though. But, so there are some other tricks with this as well that don't make it...so anyway, you've got a couple of things that can go on. So you've got a blank metalmind, right, with nothing. You need either investiture, to be able...like you need to be the right type. There are ways to access that if you are completely blank also, if you were a blank slate, but that is still...kind of hard. It's even harder if you are blank, and the metalmind is not blank, but that's not what they're doing in Mistborn right now. You are tapping investiture, gaining the ability of feruchemy and then you are drawing out a blank metalmind, ok. That's the one you need to be...and everything else I'm hedging on intentionally, and I'm worried I hedged in a way that made it sound confusing, ok. So you know now what they're doing. You know that there are other things possible. But I don't want you to think that you have the explanations for how all those things happen, ok. Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)
IlstrawberrySeed Posted July 9, 2023 Posted July 9, 2023 On 6/20/2023 at 2:22 PM, alder24 said: Hide contents Questioner In Mistborn, we know if someone puts their Identity into a metalmind, they can create metalminds other people can use. Would other people be able to use that aluminummind to overwrite their own Identity, or is it still tied to the creator because it was still keyed to their Identity when they were filling it? Brandon Sanderson So if you have no Identity and you fill a metalmind, that metalmind is full of Identity-less... Questioner Yeah, so anyone can use that. But can someone use your aluminummind? Brandon Sanderson Ooh wait a minute, so...that you filled with your Identity. So they would have to have your Identity already. Questioner Ok, so you can't have two people fill Identity and effectively swap aluminumminds. Brandon Sanderson If you can...there are ways to make this happen but the best way to make what you're talking about happen, is to be filling your own Identity while having a blank metalmind. That is the best way, obviously. But there are other workarounds for both situations, like a blank metalmind is pretty easy to use. It's blank. But if you were blank, and using a blank, it's a little better. Questioner Ok. Because you're both blank. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, and so I'll give you the mechanics of all this eventually, they're just trying to still figure it all out themselves. Because right now they're just doing things they've been told "do this" but they don't know the why's. But if you are blank and have a metalmind that has an Identity, right, that is not an impossible situation that you're in either. Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016) This WoB said if you're blank it's hard to access keyed investiture, but the context makes me think it's about filling a blank and empty metalmind. Hide contents Brandon Sanderson So one of the things people have been asking about a lot the nature of Identity and its uses for accessing other people's metalminds, and things like this right. And I hedged a little bit when somebody asked me... *inaudible*...send people into spirals of confusion, so I'm gonna clarify it for now. So, someone comes in and says, we need a blank metalmind, anybody can use that. I'm like, yes but, the reason that it's a hedge is that you need to actually be a feruchemist to access it, right, you can't just hold the blank metalmind not being a feruchemist, even though it's somebody else's investiture that's been blanked, right. So people keep kind of missing this thing. I'm hedging in the sort of, you don't quite have it, I've kind of dodged it, but I worry that it's just going to be confusing. So the issue is, you need two things from one of these. You need something that makes you a feruchemist, and then you need a metalmind that somebody else has filled with blank investiture, ok. Now if you can get pure investiture, that can be used by anybody, regardless, ok, you need it in pure form though. But, so there are some other tricks with this as well that don't make it...so anyway, you've got a couple of things that can go on. So you've got a blank metalmind, right, with nothing. You need either investiture, to be able...like you need to be the right type. There are ways to access that if you are completely blank also, if you were a blank slate, but that is still...kind of hard. It's even harder if you are blank, and the metalmind is not blank, but that's not what they're doing in Mistborn right now. You are tapping investiture, gaining the ability of feruchemy and then you are drawing out a blank metalmind, ok. That's the one you need to be...and everything else I'm hedging on intentionally, and I'm worried I hedged in a way that made it sound confusing, ok. So you know now what they're doing. You know that there are other things possible. But I don't want you to think that you have the explanations for how all those things happen, ok. Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016) These were the 2 I was refrencing.
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