SomePog Posted June 9, 2023 Posted June 9, 2023 So i was wondering about how AonDor would be affected by compounding connection, I thought that maybe since Elantrians gain the use of AonDor through connection to the Dor if they were to have a Metalmind filled to the brim with connection could they hypothetically using Aons at full power in places other than Elantris. (the lease being somewhere like Fjordell or Teod or on an extreme level, a different planet without having to use jars of Dor to fuel it)
alder24 Posted June 9, 2023 Posted June 9, 2023 9 hours ago, SomePog said: So i was wondering about how AonDor would be affected by compounding connection, I thought that maybe since Elantrians gain the use of AonDor through connection to the Dor if they were to have a Metalmind filled to the brim with connection could they hypothetically using Aons at full power in places other than Elantris. (the lease being somewhere like Fjordell or Teod or on an extreme level, a different planet without having to use jars of Dor to fuel it) Yes, that's a way to hack the system, even without compounding, simply tapping connection form a medallion will work. Surprisingly, this is a harder way to do it, there are easier ways to achieve that: Spoiler DoritoJH So, AonDor is super versatile and powerful. Brandon Sanderson Yes, but region-locked! DoritoJH Yes, it is region locked, exactly. If a full Feruchemist using nicrosil were to create an unlocked medallion that allowed an Elantrian to store Connection to Elantris' location, would it let them use AonDor at full power as long as they were tapping that Connection? Brandon Sanderson Yes. That should work just fine. ... Just understand that the medallion's going to have to be usable by everyone in order to work. You're going to have to jump through some hoops, but I think what you want there would work. And for those of you listening, that would be the harder way to unlock AonDor. There are easier methods. DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 31, 2019) TLM spoilers: Spoiler The easier way to achieve that was shown in The Lost Metal, when Shai drew an Aon on the ground based on the geography of the Elendel Basin. She basically created an Elantris Aon on Scadrial, and it amplified her power. Spoiler Jofwu Why did Shay-I have to draw a map of the Elendel basin, if the jar of Dor was her source of Investiture? Did the map connect her to another source of Investiture? Brandon Sanderson No, the map didn't, but her magic is still wonky. Selish magic has some wonkiness to it and it needs to be tricked. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 9, 2023 Posted June 9, 2023 Quote TLM spoilers: Hide contents The easier way to achieve that was shown in The Lost Metal, when Shai drew an Aon on the ground based on the geography of the Elendel Basin. She basically created an Elantris Aon on Scadrial, and it amplified her power. Hide contents Jofwu Why did Shay-I have to draw a map of the Elendel basin, if the jar of Dor was her source of Investiture? Did the map connect her to another source of Investiture? Brandon Sanderson No, the map didn't, but her magic is still wonky. Selish magic has some wonkiness to it and it needs to be tricked. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) We're on the Cosmere discussion forum, does it need to be spoiler tagged? Either way, Could you then make it work with any potent unkeyed Investiture, so long as you create an amplifier Aon based on the local geography?
alder24 Posted June 9, 2023 Posted June 9, 2023 41 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: We're on the Cosmere discussion forum, does it need to be spoiler tagged? Yes. I'm not sure if the author of the thread read it, that's enough for me to put it in a spoiler box. I don't want to accidentally spoil the book for someone who just asked a question. TLM spoilers Spoiler 42 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Either way, Could you then make it work with any potent unkeyed Investiture, so long as you create an amplifier Aon based on the local geography? Box please? And the answer is maybe. How does it work? Elantraian would likely be able to use that amplifier Aon to draw investiture directly from the Dor on Sel. So they wouldn't need it. But how it works for Shai is hard to say. It might work the same, but we know Forging requires fuel for invested arts to work, so she might have only as much as she had in the jar in the first place. But on the other hand Shai invented a lot of things so maybe she has found a way to overcome it too, and just draw directly from the Dor? Either way, for a real Elantrian that won't matter. Spoiler Love-that-dog Why won't Moonlight's stamp wear off by itself? Brandon Sanderson This is an excellent question. The answer is—it might someday. But the other question is—it's been a spell. Depending on where I time these things, it's either been hundreds of years or decades since... Moonlight has had a lot of time to practice with powers and investigate what's possible in the Cosmere with magic and talk to some of the smartest people in the Cosmere about how it works. You should draw from the way the soulstamps work, the more mundane ones, that Shai has made a ton of progress in pushing forward the art of Forgery. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 10, 2023 Posted June 10, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, alder24 said: Yes. I'm not sure if the author of the thread read it, that's enough for me to put it in a spoiler box. I don't want to accidentally spoil the book for someone who just asked a question. Aw, that's nice of you! I'm a bit of a blitz when it comes to spoiler tags Quote TLM spoilers Hide contents Box please? And the answer is maybe. How does it work? Elantraian would likely be able to use that amplifier Aon to draw investiture directly from the Dor on Sel. So they wouldn't need it. But how it works for Shai is hard to say. It might work the same, but we know Forging requires fuel for invested arts to work, so she might have only as much as she had in the jar in the first place. But on the other hand Shai invented a lot of things so maybe she has found a way to overcome it too, and just draw directly from the Dor? Either way, for a real Elantrian that won't matter. Cosmere Mechanics and TLM Spoilers: Spoiler I don't think an amplifier Aon could draw the actual Dor. If it was like regular Investiture and in the Spiritual Realm, then yes, but the Dor is miles away in the Cognitive Realm, so just drawing an Aon wouldn't be able to summon it there. An Elantrian would still need a source of unkeyed Investiture to actually fuel the AonDor, they'd just also need to draw an amplifier Aon map of the local Geography to make the AonDor work, separately from having a source of Investiture. As for Shai, I think that after she turned herself into an Elantrian, she would act just as an Elantrian would. The need for excess Investiture is to be able to perform the Invested Art you've stamped yourself to access, separately from the Investiture needed to give yourself the ability through a stamp, which the stamp itself (or the Forger, depending on how it fuels itself) provides. Anyway, even though Shai is full of the Dor, the light in her actually starts to fade until she draws the Basin Aon, at which point it "stabilized, then brightened". The Investiture is in her, but her Elantrianness still starts failing because there isn't an amplifier Aon. Once it's there, she can use the Investiture to fuel AonDor normally. What I was asking about was that if there was any source of unkeyed Investiture were there, could they perform AonDor just by drawing an amplifier Aon? Like, Stormlight wouldn't work because Stormlight is Keyed to Honor, but if you could mass produce an unkeyed version, which could be easier just because of how abundant and easy to acquire it is, could the Elantrians make a second Elantris on Roshar that runs on Unkeyed Stormlight? If they Corrupt Stormlight into (Aonic) Dorlight, would that work? I imagine it doesn't need to be unkeyed, just keyed to the Dor, which might be easier than unkeying it entirely. Brandon makes it sound like the workaround that Shai uses (if it is indeed the method he was talking about) is far easier than the Storing Connection Method, which isn't that hard beyond creating an Unsealed Duraluminmind Medallion and being unable to channel Aondor (effectively) for a while, so it can't be that hard in the right circumstances. Also, just something I wanted to clarify because I'm not sure about it: Are the Selish Invested Arts location-dependent because they're drawing the Investiture through Connection to a specific area, and leaving it makes the Connection weak all the way to nonexistent depending on distance (Option 1), or is it because the Dor itself is keyed to the different locations and can only power the Invested Art of their given location, and thus trying to co-opt a different area's Dor will make the Invested Art weak all the way up to dysfunctional, again depending on the distance (Option 2)? This next bit is just examples of what I'm asking in case I'm unclear, so if you understood it the first time you can just skip over this: Spoiler Option 1 works this way: Forgery will work best in MaiPon, less efficiently in Teod, and not at all in Arelon, because MaiPon is what the Forger is Connected to, and the Connection is how they access the Dor in order to make Forgery work. Option 2 is that Forgery will work best in MaiPon, less efficiently in Teod, and not at all in Arelon, but because the most efficient power source for Foregry is MaiPon-Dor, and Teod-Dor is just similar enough to make Forgery work, albeit less efficiently, and Arelon-Dor is so different from MaiPon-Dor that it can't power Forgery at all. Option 1 is that Selish Arts become weak because they're Connection dependent, Option 2 is because they're Keyed-Dor dependent. Footnote: All of this is independent of the need to be born in a specific area to be able to perform the local Invested Art. Edited June 10, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper
Walter The Moral Posted June 11, 2023 Posted June 11, 2023 (edited) Do you think the Selish arts are location dependent because the Shards were Splintered and put in the Cognitive realm? There is no distance in the Spiritual Realm, so location doesn't matter, but there is most certainly distance in the Cognitive Realm. And since the Shards, and therefore their Investiture, are in the Cognitive Realm, location matters. Edited June 11, 2023 by Walter The Moral
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 11, 2023 Posted June 11, 2023 37 minutes ago, Walter The Moral said: Do you think the Selish arts are location dependent because the Shards were Splintered and put in the Cognitive realm? There is no distance in the Spiritual Realm, so location doesn't matter, but there is most certainly distance in the Cognitive Realm. And since the Shards, and therefore their Investiture, are in the Cognitive Realm, location matters. That is exactly why it is location dependent. It's been confirmed. 1
Walter The Moral Posted June 11, 2023 Posted June 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: That is exactly why it is location dependent. It's been confirmed. Very cool. Thanks!
Duxredux he/him Posted June 11, 2023 Posted June 11, 2023 If you start looking at how Shadesmar geography works, there may also be something to how power may pool into the depressions of geographic landmarks. Both Elantris and Mai-Pon forging require drawing a version of their country.
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 11, 2023 Posted June 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Duxredux said: If you start looking at how Shadesmar geography works, there may also be something to how power may pool into the depressions of geographic landmarks. Could be, but it's been described as a storm in the past, and travel through the Selish Subastral is notoriously dangerous, so I think the Dor would be a little more active than just sitting in puddles. 1 hour ago, Duxredux said: Both Elantris and Mai-Pon forging require drawing a version of their country. Most of them probably do. Dakhor uses ancient Fjordell characters, which are likely based on Fjordell. Bloodsealing probably has a map of Dhzamar on the Bloodseals. Really the only one I can't imagine using an image of their country is ChayShan, and only because it uses the body itself to create the proper forms necessary.
SomePog Posted June 12, 2023 Author Posted June 12, 2023 Hi all, sorry i was gone for long, On 6/10/2023 at 3:59 AM, alder24 said: Yes. I'm not sure if the author of the thread read it, that's enough for me to put it in a spoiler box. I don't want to accidentally spoil the book for someone who just asked a question. Yes i have read TLM it was what originally started my thought for AonDor cosmere wide. My main thinking was how AonDor interacts with geography alongside connection, for example if you were on scadrial with no access to Dor but then drew an Aon using the basin as a base would it act how Aons worked in Teod or other far off nations in Sel or would it not work at all, and then i keep thinking like that for different levels. If you compounded connection would you need a map of the basin? or could you still use the base Aon
alder24 Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, SomePog said: My main thinking was how AonDor interacts with geography alongside connection, for example if you were on scadrial with no access to Dor but then drew an Aon using the basin as a base would it act how Aons worked in Teod or other far off nations in Sel or would it not work at all, and then i keep thinking like that for different levels. If you compounded connection would you need a map of the basin? or could you still use the base Aon The map drawn by Shai was acting like the city of Elantris itself - it amplified the power and created a connection to the city Elantris. So that's all that is needed for an Elantrian. That's how an Elantrain needs to start - create an amplifier Aon based on a local geography, to be able to use normal Aons. Every subsequent Aon that they would draw would likely be normal, the same we know, based on Arelon (likely). Like Brandon said in the WoB I've provided in a first post, that's a way to trick a system. For just using F-duralumin and connection - as per WoB, that's all that is needed. Tap connection to Elantris and you can access AonDor on different planets. You don't need another map, because you're tricking the system to believe you're closer to Elantris then you actually are - that's at least what I think is happening. You overcome the location dependency of Selish magic, because you're tricking the system. Because of the WoB about "taping connection will allow you to use AonDor outside of Elantris, on another planets" I believe that Elantrian don't need outside source of investiture, like pure Dor, because he is tricking a system, forming very strong connection to the Dor and that investiture flaws to you through that connection, which is spiritual, which means it goes form CR into SR, which is spaceless, and to you. The same would work with the map Aon - it tricks the Dor into believing that it's right there, on Sel. Spoiler Questioner (paraphrased) Is there a region-based magic like Elantris on any of the other worlds? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The Aon magic is unique to that planet because it is intrinsic to the Shard that created it, but you could theoretically hack the magic system so that AonDor would work on another planet. Words of Radiance Houston signing (March 11, 2014) Shai however likely needs Dor, because she needs to provide Investiture to fuel her Forgery and all use of Forged magic. Unless she found a way around it, which might be possible, yet highly unlikely in my opinion. Spoiler Aneesh If there's a Forger like Shai who plausibly had an opportunity to ingest lerasium and become Mistborn, but she passed it up, could she create a stamp that makes her temporarily a Mistborn? Brandon Sanderson She would have to have access to enough Investiture to make that happen. The stamp saying, "Hey, I'm a Mistborn!" doesn't actually give her the Investiture to do that. She could rewrite her past so that she took that bead. She would not actually be able to use the power, until she got an infusion of Investiture, which could be done with a stamp in the right manner, but most of the time you're gonna have to have some external source. Basically you're gonna have to take a hit of Investiture, a large amount of it, and then use the stamp, and then it will feed on that to change you into basically any of the other magics. Aneesh Stormlight? Brandon Sanderson If you could get a hit of Stormlight, that'd work. The problem is, Stormlight's not easy to get off of Roshar, and it still is technically keyed. You could get it a lot more easily-- Stormlight would work fairly well, but what you really want is some pure, unkeyed Dor. That stuff, you could do all kinds of things with. But, you know, it's kinda dangerous. But that's the stuff you're gonna want, or something like unto it. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021) Edit: On 10.06.2023 at 1:27 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Also, just something I wanted to clarify because I'm not sure about it: Are the Selish Invested Arts location-dependent because they're drawing the Investiture through Connection to a specific area, and leaving it makes the Connection weak all the way to nonexistent depending on distance (Option 1), or is it because the Dor itself is keyed to the different locations and can only power the Invested Art of their given location, and thus trying to co-opt a different area's Dor will make the Invested Art weak all the way up to dysfunctional, again depending on the distance (Option 2)? This next bit is just examples of what I'm asking in case I'm unclear, so if you understood it the first time you can just skip over this: Hide contents Option 1 works this way: Forgery will work best in MaiPon, less efficiently in Teod, and not at all in Arelon, because MaiPon is what the Forger is Connected to, and the Connection is how they access the Dor in order to make Forgery work. Option 2 is that Forgery will work best in MaiPon, less efficiently in Teod, and not at all in Arelon, but because the most efficient power source for Foregry is MaiPon-Dor, and Teod-Dor is just similar enough to make Forgery work, albeit less efficiently, and Arelon-Dor is so different from MaiPon-Dor that it can't power Forgery at all. Option 1 is that Selish Arts become weak because they're Connection dependent, Option 2 is because they're Keyed-Dor dependent. Investiture is stuck in CR in a specific location, connected to it, but it isn't any different from all around Sel. I think it's mostly connection. Read those WoBs and decide for yourself Spoiler Brightlord Maelstrom If you were to somehow use a receptacle to gather some part of the Dor, say there was a way of doing that. And you were to do one on both extremes of the planet. Would it be the same thing? ...Say, you have a container than can contain part of this plasma? ...Theoretically? You do that, taking one part of the planet, say Elantris, seal it up. And then you were to take another one, and fill it up in MaiPon and compare them, would it be the same Investiture? Brandon Sanderson Yes, it would. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) Spoiler Questioner So we know that you can't just have someone-- If someone were to do something similar to Hoid, he can't just pop and go "Oh look, I can now do Allomancy or I can now do Surgebinding". What about Breath? If someone could somebody get Breath-- Maybe not *audio obscured* Could they still get the benefits of-- Brandon Sanderson Oh, good question... Yes you can, actually. Breath is-- Once it is given to you, it is being keyed to you. Your Identity. So that transfer makes it yours to use however you want. Questioner So you could Awaken? Brandon Sanderson You could Awaken. If you-- If you were to somehow make it there, you would be able to Awaken. It's the easiest of magic systems to get the magic from, and then to manipulate. Because it has keyed into it Identity. Questioner *audio obscured* Brandon Sanderson Yes, you can take Breath onto another world. In fact, you've seen characters do this. Questioner *audio obscured* Brandon Sanderson It would work, yes. Questioner *audio obscured* Brandon Sanderson Yes, it would work the same way. The only magic that is location-dependent-- The ones who aren't interested in this, just hum to yourself, okay? *laughter* You don't need to know any of this stuff to enjoy the books, okay? I write them so that you could just-- each series can be read independently, and enjoyed. There is behind the scenes stuff, and if you want to dig, it goes pretty deep. So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn't want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic. Because it's stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they're keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection. Mostly Connection. So that means you can't do AonDor on another planet, but you can do other magics works anywhere, because they're drawing the magics specifically through either the place, or they're end-neutral, like Breath is, and you don't need any extra power. Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016) Edited June 12, 2023 by alder24 1
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 5 hours ago, alder24 said: Investiture is stuck in CR in a specific location, connected to it, but it isn't any different from all around Sel. I think it's mostly connection. Read those WoBs and decide for yourself The first one outright answers it, thanks! 5 hours ago, alder24 said: For just using F-duralumin and connection - as per WoB, that's all that is needed. Tap connection to Elantris and you can access AonDor on different planets. You don't need another map, because you're tricking the system to believe you're closer to Elantris then you actually are - that's at least what I think is happening. You overcome the location dependency of Selish magic, because you're tricking the system. Because of the WoB about "taping connection will allow you to use AonDor outside of Elantris, on another planets" I believe that Elantrian don't need outside source of investiture, like pure Dor, because he is tricking a system, forming very strong connection to the Dor and that investiture flaws to you through that connection, which is spiritual, which means it goes form CR into SR, which is spaceless, and to you. The same would work with the map Aon - it tricks the Dor into believing that it's right there, on Sel. I was about to argue that Connection alone shouldn't give you the ability to perform AonDor, since you'd need actual Investiture to perform the Art, but I think this could actually work. The Connections you tap would basically make a pipeline between you and the Dor through the Spiritual Realm, and that should totally allow you to perform it anywhere. Come to think about it, this method should allow you to perform AonDor, and any other Selish Invested Art for that matter, wherever you want and whenever you want, like Arts like Allomancy or Awakening, so long as you have enough Connection stored up. Would tapping a lot of Connection allow you to cast supercharged Aons, given that it would make for a bigger Investiture pipeline than even being in the middle of Elantris would create?
Recommended Posts