Radiant Oath patterns

[SomePog]

So i was reading different oaths and i thought up a new kinda pattern although im not sure if it is entirely new maybe someone else has thought of it besides me might as well speak my mind ay

my general idea goes like this 

1st oath: same for all even Lightweavers who drastically differ from other orders oaths i simply take this as less of a progression for the radiant as a person but an entry exam for all radiants, since the words cant be accepted if you dont mean them. Swearing "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination." basically is a test to see if your cut for radiant dute

2nd oath: is the defining act of each order stuff like "I will protect those that cannot protect themselves." exemplifies most windrunner ideals same for the skybreakers "I will put the law before all else." the second oath in my view is a true definer of each order and sets that person on the path to truly joining the order.

3rd oath: is to oppose oneself for the ideals or morals of an order windrunners must get over bias and swear to protect all, and skybreakers well i guess most swear to follow law but then are expected to devout themselves to a single law or code or stuff like that instead of a flexible definition of law depending on time or place they need to choose one to stick with and follow through change and such 

4th oath: I was stretching a bit on the last one but on this one im pretty confident and its really the only reason i decided to post about this was i think the 4th ideal exists to contradict, the windrunners who are sworn to protect all are forced to accept they cannot save everyone skybreakers who swear to follow law need to instead follow their own desires, choosing their own crusade not someone elses, and i could imagine the elsecallers who i see kinda like scholars need to realize that not everything can be solved with honeyed words

Feel free to call me stupid if ive missed some glaring rule in the oaths thanks

[Treamayne]

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1 hour ago, SomePog said:

So I was reading different oaths and I thought up a new kinda pattern; although I'm not sure if it is entirely new maybe, someone else has thought of it besides me might as well. [I'll] speak my mind [anyway?].
<snip>

Feel free to call me stupid if I've missed some glaring rule in the oaths. Thanks

Good catch, you are seeing a deliberate pattern. Are you familiar with the Coppermind? You can read the entry on Oaths here. Here are some Words of Brandon  (WoBs) on the subject (that link is to the Arcanum, where you can read the Q&As and search the database of WoBs for information):

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

Marethyu316

I noticed that the Third Ideals have a similar theme to them. Is that intentional?

Brandon Sanderson

They do, that is is intentional. They won't all exactly go along those lines, but I'm trying to theme them, as best I can, in groups. So all the First ones, all the Second ones, particularly a lot of the Third ones have a similar--

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

I have a question about progression of powers for the Knights Radiant. So we see with Kaladin that it seems that there's a definitive border to the Ideals and how you gain them, I guess? It would be hard to touch on the third without having learned the second. Would that-- Is that the same for all of the Orders? Like the Willshapers are much more varied and individualistic, could they go through a different order and if so would that affect how they express their Surgebinding?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, the Oaths are very individualized. In fact you'll get a lot more of this as you see different people, even within the same Order, swearing Oaths. And you'll see how it works, even with a given Order there is individuality to them. So I'm going to give you a RAFO, you can have a card.

 

Quote

Stormstoyou

The Third Bondsmith Ideal that Dalinar swears in the end of Oathbringer. About taking responsibilities and becoming a better man. Is it the basic Ideal for ALL Bondsmith or this is Dalinar’s personal interpretation of the Ideal?

Brandon Sanderson

This is Dalinar's personal interpretation, but ideals for a given order do have similar themes person to person.

Quote

Q10fanatic

So, the third ideal of the Windrunners. Is it about protecting those you hate or is it more broadly about going against your instincts/wants in order to protect others better?

Brandon Sanderson

For most people, it's going to go along the hatred lines--but it extends all the way to what you're implying. Mostly, I think of it as, "I'll get rid of my caveats about those I'll protect."

You're likely to see the more extreme examples as I write out the oaths for others, particularly in-scene, as I don't want it to feel too repetitive. But you can assume that for most of the original members of Bridge Four (who are slowly hitting this ideal) that it had to do with agreeing to protect a group that they in some way dislike. (So long as it's right to do so, as defined by themselves and their spren, of course.)

Gale_Emchild

At or near the endgame of SA do you think you'd release a guide on the specifics of each orders oaths, so that the fans could personalise their own?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, if I haven't gotten to them all by then, I will release them all.

 

Just because others have also noted the patterns to the ideals does not diminish that you found them yourself - and there is still much debate about how that pattern works; both as a whole, and as it applies to each order. Great job.

[alder24]

6 hours ago, SomePog said:

3rd oath: is to oppose oneself for the ideals or morals of an order windrunners must get over bias and swear to protect all, and skybreakers well i guess most swear to follow law but then are expected to devout themselves to a single law or code or stuff like that instead of a flexible definition of law depending on time or place they need to choose one to stick with and follow through change and such 

How does your idea of the 3rd Ideal fits with Edgedancers you airsick lowlander? For Edgedancers it's a progression of the 2nd Ideal, from "I will remember those who have been forgotten. " to "I will listen to those who have been ignored.".

For Skybreakers it is also a progression, from seaking a general justice, to dedicating themself to specific code or person: "I swear to seek justice, to let it guide me, until I find a more perfect Ideal." -> "I swear to follow the will of Dalinar Kholin. This is my oath.".

For Bondsmiths it's about self realization, from uniting people, to taking responsibility for their actions (that being said, Bondsmiths might have very personalized Ideals, not fitting any pattern).

6 hours ago, SomePog said:

4th oath: I was stretching a bit on the last one but on this one im pretty confident and its really the only reason i decided to post about this was i think the 4th ideal exists to contradict, the windrunners who are sworn to protect all are forced to accept they cannot save everyone skybreakers who swear to follow law need to instead follow their own desires, choosing their own crusade not someone elses, and i could imagine the elsecallers who i see kinda like scholars need to realize that not everything can be solved with honeyed words

With the 4th Ideal I agree, it's about contradiction. But in the case of Skybreakers it's not just about choosing their own desire, but to choose a specific purpose they should follow, not general justice of 2nd Ideal, not a wide legal code of 3rd Ideal, but a specific goal, very narrow and very precise section of the law - this prepares them for 5th Ideal, choosing their own goal depending on their own definition of justice, trusting in their own judgment. 4th Ideal for Skybreaker is about realization that they can ignore most of the law (or commands of the person they chose to follow) and focus on a specific part of it, like fighting against "false leaders of Shinovar", which will teach them that they can decide themself what is just and lawful to do on the 5th Ideal, without any need for a legal code to follow. Just like Nale decided that killing Radiants is a rightful thing to do, trusting in his own judgment.

 

And what about 5th Ideal? Any ideas? 

[cometaryorbit]

My view (which largely agrees but partly disagrees) is that the framework of the Ideals - except for Lightweavers and maybe Elsecallers* - is based on the two Divine Attributes of the Order.

1st Ideal is same for all

2nd Ideal expresses the first Divine Attribute (Protecting for Windrunners, Just for Skybreakers, Loving for Edgedancers). It also seems to be an amplified form of the theme given to the Order on the Ten Orders quiz page - "I will protect" for Windrunners, "I will seek justice" for Skybreakers, "I will remember" for Edgedancers, "I will seek freedom" for Willshapers, "I will unite" for Bondsmiths**.

3rd Ideal intensifies or specifies the Divine Attribute/ 2nd Ideal (I will protect even those I hate, choosing a specific code of justice, etc)

4th Ideal qualifies or combines the first Divine Attribute with the second. Windrunners accept there are those they can't Protect in preparation for taking up a Leadership role, Skybreakers undergo a crusade to learn Confidence in their administration of Justice.

The 5th Ideal, then, is probably the ideal combination of the Divine Attributes. Skybreakers become fully Confident in serving/becoming Justice.

*The Ten Orders page says "They seek self-improvement and personal betterment in their lives, but aren’t limited to one specific theme or set of Ideals".

Bondsmiths don't seem to fit this pattern either ... and it will be looser, since the Ten Orders page says "the oaths can end up taking a variety of different shapes, depending on the situation" - but I think maybe they actually do, at least thematically. Their Divine Attributes are Pious/Guiding. We think of "pious" as meaning simply "religious". But the original root meaning is more like "dutiful" (eg 'filial piety'), implying duty in a society of reciprocal obligations - bonds! In that sense, I think "I will unite instead of divide" and "I will stand each time I fall" maybe do fit.

**This would suggest that the Dustbringer Second is some version of "I will seek self-mastery", the Truthwatcher Second is some version of "I will seek truth", and the Stoneward Second is some version of "I will be there when I'm needed".

Edited June 1, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[olivemyheart]

10 hours ago, SomePog said:

4th oath: I was stretching a bit on the last one but on this one im pretty confident and its really the only reason i decided to post about this was i think the 4th ideal exists to contradict, the windrunners who are sworn to protect all are forced to accept they cannot save everyone skybreakers who swear to follow law need to instead follow their own desires, choosing their own crusade not someone elses, and i could imagine the elsecallers who i see kinda like scholars need to realize that not everything can be solved with honeyed words

It would be interesting if Dalinar's Fourth Ideal is something along the lines of "I accept there are those I cannot unite," both because of his warlord past and just because some people refuse to cooperate even if it's for the sake of the world itself. In OB and RoW we already see heads of different nations reluctant to trust him (for good reason, from their POVs) and there are characters like Sadeas and Taravangian who can't be reasoned with. Maybe it's a dumb idea, but I find it conceptually interesting, at least.

[alder24]

50 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Bondsmiths don't seem to fit this pattern either ... and it will be looser, since the Ten Orders page says "the oaths can end up taking a variety of different shapes, depending on the situation" - but I think maybe they actually do, at least thematically. Their Divine Attributes are Pious/Guiding. We think of "pious" as meaning simply "religious". But the original root meaning is more like "dutiful" (eg 'filial piety'), implying duty in a society of reciprocal obligations - bonds! In that sense, I think "I will unite instead of divide" and "I will stand each time I fall" maybe do fit.

Did you think about Dalinar's 3rd Ideal as a progression of his 2nd? He will unite as a leader, but he will make mistakes and he will take responsibility for them trying to fix them and learn from them to be a better leader.

16 minutes ago, olivemyheart said:

It would be interesting if Dalinar's Fourth Ideal is something along the lines of "I accept there are those I cannot unite," both because of his warlord past and just because some people refuse to cooperate even if it's for the sake of the world itself. In OB and RoW we already see heads of different nations reluctant to trust him (for good reason, from their POVs) and there are characters like Sadeas and Taravangian who can't be reasoned with. Maybe it's a dumb idea, but I find it conceptually interesting, at least.

That's too similar to Windrunners' 3rd. And Dalinar doesn't struggle with that. He has no problems with accepting that there are those who chose the other side. He fully accepted that and he's never stopped to worry about it. There is no conflict for Dalinar to swear that Ideal. Him dealing with Ialai in RoW is enough proof.

[olivemyheart]

55 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That's too similar to Windrunners' 3rd. And Dalinar doesn't struggle with that. He has no problems with accepting that there are those who chose the other side. He fully accepted that and he's never stopped to worry about it. There is no conflict for Dalinar to swear that Ideal. Him dealing with Ialai in RoW is enough proof.

Yeah, fair enough. I guess his internal struggle is more about letting other people have authority and do things in ways he doesn't agree with.

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, olivemyheart said:

Yeah, fair enough. I guess his internal struggle is more about letting other people have authority and do things in ways he doesn't agree with.

That's a good observation. He does struggle with that more and more.

[SomePog]

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

How does your idea of the 3rd Ideal fits with Edgedancers you airsick lowlander? For Edgedancers it's a progression of the 2nd Ideal, from "I will remember those who have been forgotten. " to "I will listen to those who have been ignored.".

For Skybreakers it is also a progression, from seaking a general justice, to dedicating themself to specific code or person: "I swear to seek justice, to let it guide me, until I find a more perfect Ideal." -> "I swear to follow the will of Dalinar Kholin. This is my oath.".

For Bondsmiths it's about self realization, from uniting people, to taking responsibility for their actions (that being said, Bondsmiths might have very personalized Ideals, not fitting any pattern).

With the 4th Ideal I agree, it's about contradiction. But in the case of Skybreakers it's not just about choosing their own desire, but to choose a specific purpose they should follow, not general justice of 2nd Ideal, not a wide legal code of 3rd Ideal, but a specific goal, very narrow and very precise section of the law - this prepares them for 5th Ideal, choosing their own goal depending on their own definition of justice, trusting in their own judgment. 4th Ideal for Skybreaker is about realization that they can ignore most of the law (or commands of the person they chose to follow) and focus on a specific part of it, like fighting against "false leaders of Shinovar", which will teach them that they can decide themself what is just and lawful to do on the 5th Ideal, without any need for a legal code to follow. Just like Nale decided that killing Radiants is a rightful thing to do, trusting in his own judgment.

 

And what about 5th Ideal? Any ideas? 

I did admit that i was stretching for the 3rd ideal haha but yea good points i kinda wanted to see how other people viewed it, my best reasoning for the edgedancers following my original framework could be that taking in account Lift as a character and main example for edgedancers is shes very, not sure how to say it sorry, but unsticky? (sorry bad english) but what i mean is the edgedancers kinda attract drifters like Lift who try not to be attached to people or places while still caring (The mixture of instantly healing and moving fast means they can help someone and leave before they get attached lol) so swearing to listen and not just remember means they swear to stay and truly help and instead of sliding away from their burdens but to take them on

As for skybreakers... youre right lol

AND as for 5th ideals hmmmm i think really its to complete a radiant, we know all radiants are broken as said by Syl i believe so the 5 oath should be what "Repairs" them and helps them move on whole we know the skybreakers is to become law this i see (and could be seen through Nales actions) as a way of circumventing the rules and oaths slightly allowing action that the oaths would normally prevent like a dollar store unbound radiant still bound to oaths but not to the extent of a honorblade grants

11 hours ago, olivemyheart said:

It would be interesting if Dalinar's Fourth Ideal is something along the lines of "I accept there are those I cannot unite," both because of his warlord past and just because some people refuse to cooperate even if it's for the sake of the world itself. In OB and RoW we already see heads of different nations reluctant to trust him (for good reason, from their POVs) and there are characters like Sadeas and Taravangian who can't be reasoned with. Maybe it's a dumb idea, but I find it conceptually interesting, at least.

I was thinking more along the lines of "There are those not deserving of unification" instead of trying his best to take in all factions of humanity dalinar will realise that some factions are just not worth it and down the line he would unite more if he gave up on it now.

 

Thanks all

[SomePog]

And just for fun ima try and guess my orders oaths (Stonewards)

1st:  "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination"  Quite obviously

2nd: "I will stand where others fall"  Brandon has so kindly given this one to use 

3rd: "I will bear the foundation for a better world"  This comes from my perception of Stonewards as unmovable shields for the innocent kinda in pair with windrunners who kill for innocent the stonewards will protect the innocent not through battle but defense (aligning with their abilities) so i see this as the knight swearing to stand for what they believe in and let others use them for betterment also it sounds cool lol

4th: "One will die so that i may protect a hundred more" or "I shall retreat today to shield those i love another" i feel like taking in Talns actions that the 4th would be about letting others sacrifice for you or retreat not being terrible again going along with me '4th ideal contradictory' 

5th: "Those who appose the ones i love will crumble before my shield"  im ashamed to admit but i struggled and i know this wouldnt cut it for a 5th ideal im just not creative i need the framework and without a real 5th ideal im stuck lol

[alder24]

1 hour ago, SomePog said:

I did admit that i was stretching for the 3rd ideal haha but yea good points i kinda wanted to see how other people viewed it, my best reasoning for the edgedancers following my original framework could be that taking in account Lift as a character and main example for edgedancers is shes very, not sure how to say it sorry, but unsticky? (sorry bad english) but what i mean is the edgedancers kinda attract drifters like Lift who try not to be attached to people or places while still caring (The mixture of instantly healing and moving fast means they can help someone and leave before they get attached lol) so swearing to listen and not just remember means they swear to stay and truly help and instead of sliding away from their burdens but to take them on

That's a good take on that.

1 hour ago, SomePog said:

4th: "One will die so that i may protect a hundred more" or "I shall retreat today to shield those i love another" i feel like taking in Talns actions that the 4th would be about letting others sacrifice for you or retreat not being terrible again going along with me '4th ideal contradictory' 

I love that one. The idea that Stonewards will struggle with accepting defeat or retreat fits them just perfectly.

For Stonewards you gave me the idea, not about protection, that's too similar to Windrunners, but about working as a unit. Second ideal suggest that they will stand alone (as others fall). Third ideal might embrace that they can stand together, as a foundation, stand as a unit with others. Forth is about accepting that sometimes retreating is necessary. But I have no idea about fifth one. I think this idea fits Taln (who wasn't Stoneward however) - he was always choosing the worst positions to fight, he was winning them, but dying in the process, unwilling to retreat. And ultimately he withstood 4500 years of torture, alone, never breaking, and was happy about opportunities he have to humans. He was the embodiment of Stonewards 2nd Ideal.

[cometaryorbit]

I think the "I will be there when I'm needed" from the Order quiz Ten Orders page needs to fit in somewhere though. For every order we know the 2nd Ideal from (except Lightweavers, who have individualized Truths), the Ten Order page "motto" for that Order is a short form of the 2nd Ideal.

"I will stand when others fall", could be the 3rd, or the 2nd Ideal could be both - "I will stand when others fall. I will be there when I'm needed." - Dalinar's 3rd is two-part, so its possible.

[alder24]

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think the "I will be there when I'm needed" from the Order quiz Ten Orders page needs to fit in somewhere though. For every order we know the 2nd Ideal from (except Lightweavers, who have individualized Truths), the Ten Order page "motto" for that Order is a short form of the 2nd Ideal.

"I will stand when others fall", could be the 3rd, or the 2nd Ideal could be both - "I will stand when others fall. I will be there when I'm needed." - Dalinar's 3rd is two-part, so its possible.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. "I will be there when I'm needed" should be their second ideal. The description also kind of supports that Stonewards are focusing on teamwork, working with others and being where they are needed. Hard to say now, as my idea doesn't work that well with that, unless making the 2nd a two part ideal, as they both fit together. "I will stand when others fall" might be a variation of "I will be there when I'm needed", they are really similar and mean almost the same thing - both imply there is a need, and you're there to help and stand. In that case it can still work.

[olivemyheart]

9 hours ago, SomePog said:

AND as for 5th ideals hmmmm i think really its to complete a radiant, we know all radiants are broken as said by Syl i believe so the 5 oath should be what "Repairs" them and helps them move on whole

That's really interesting. I love that way of thinking about it.

It fits in with my speculation on Kaladin's Fifth Ideal, which I think is going to be something along the lines of "The most important person to protect is myself." The ultimate culmination of his triumph over survivor's guilt and acceptance that caring for his own physical and emotional wellbeing is foundational to being the best Windrunner he can be.

10 hours ago, SomePog said:

I was thinking more along the lines of "There are those not deserving of unification" instead of trying his best to take in all factions of humanity dalinar will realise that some factions are just not worth it and down the line he would unite more if he gave up on it now.

I like that idea. How do you think that fits into his relationship with Taravangian? From my perspective at least, Dalinar taking the authority to choose who gets to be unified sounds similar to what Taravangian was trying to do with the Diagram. Maybe Dalinar needs a fantasy ethics committee .