Another SLA5 prediction

[Tower]

Moash is getting a redemption. I’m not sure how this will play out, but it is going to end with Kaladin having to choose between saving Moash or saving someone (or more likely, everyone else). Moash will have earned his redemption, but he will still die because Kaladin can’t honorably save him over everyone (or someone) else.

I don’t have any specific clues pointing to this except for Moash and Kaladin’s arc doesn’t really have any other stakes being Moash can now kill spren going into SLA5, so it has to be an emotional climax and SLA5 is set up to be about consequences for just about every character. I don’t really think the “save yourself, I’ll hold them back” or the “you are too far gone to be saved” endings would fit well to drive home a story about consequences since they would be a little too bland following 100,000+ more words of story development. It seems more fitting to end with Kaladin having conflicting choices of honor: the honor in saving a friend vs the honor in saving the world.

Anyways, that’s just me shooting from the hip. I just can’t shake the feeling that the book is going to have endings for the Sanderlanche that pit characters in conflict with their choices and it is more emotionally compelling that Moash will be redeemed, but not saved.

[Kasimir he/him]

21 hours ago, Tower said:

Moash is getting a redemption. I’m not sure how this will play out, but it is going to end with Kaladin having to choose between saving Moash or saving someone (or more likely, everyone else). Moash will have earned his redemption, but he will still die because Kaladin can’t honorably save him over everyone (or someone) else.

Gonna say that is a major hot take and really divisive, given the state of Moash in fandom  

21 hours ago, Tower said:

Moash and Kaladin’s arc doesn’t really have any other stakes being Moash can now kill spren going into SLA5, so it has to be an emotional climax

You don't really buy that Moash is Kaladin's foil? The fact that Renarin envisioned him as a Windrunner seems to imply he's a Turn Left variant of Kaladin, where Kaladin really never put aside/worked past his anger towards lighteyes. He's basically every choice Kaladin made but bad.

[Tower]

4 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Gonna say that is a major hot take and really divisive, given the state of Moash in fandom  

You don't really buy that Moash is Kaladin's foil? The fact that Renarin envisioned him as a Windrunner seems to imply he's a Turn Left variant of Kaladin, where Kaladin really never put aside/worked past his anger towards lighteyes. He's basically every choice Kaladin made but bad.

I don’t really think it’s that hot of a take. It’s not really a foil thing either, it’s more a tragedy between two “brothers” if you will. It just would end so much more interesting to have some lingering questions about Moash, like was it the right choice to not save him, was he actually redeemed, etc.

We all know Sando likes to play with tropes and this would be a much bigger surprise than just about any other outcome. Not to mention a questionable redemption is just more dramatic, people will argue (in and out of the book) about what redemption means, if it was earned, and those answers will be based on perception - it’s a lot of narrative fodder for an author. 

[Kasimir he/him]

3 minutes ago, Tower said:

I don’t really think it’s that hot of a take. It’s not really a foil thing either, it’s more a tragedy between two “brothers” if you will. It just would end so much more interesting to have some lingering questions about Moash, like was it the right choice to not save him, was he actually redeemed, etc.

Have you seen the state of the fandom everytime Moash is mentioned? Much less suggested to be vaguely redeemable?

Edited May 30, 2023 by Kasimir

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Tower said:

I don’t really think it’s that hot of a take.

Not a hot take? Did you see this thread for example? And that's only the most recent one 

 

[Kasimir he/him]

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

Not a hot take? Did you see this thread for example? And that's only the most recent one 

 

Yeah, basically.

Minimally, I'd argue it's a very controversial take, which is what I'm going for with 'hot take' here. Moash is extremely polarising in the fandom, as to be expected from probably the only Sanderson character to have a subreddit named after him in this fashion: r/[expletive]moash. The survey you linked also has a 50/50 split which is probably about accurate, but I've seen previous Moash redemption discussions generate more heat than light. Last time I saw this much outrage was when Shadolin and Shalladin ships were at war (oh no I've done it now.)

Maybe it's a bit off-topic so on topic:

I wouldn't rule Moash out for his own Road to Damascus moment (interesting that he was stricken blind) and I think Sanderson could definitely make such a redemption work, but we'd have to see definite change in Moash for that to be plausible and IDK we're seeing any of that now, with Moash's tendency to double down. We'd also have to see genuine remorse, and doing it in the tight span of Stormlight 5 seems a bit questionable. Even then, I think parts of the fandom would be absolutely dead against it no matter what. Does mean it'll be harder to stick that landing.

tldr; in principle, I believe Sanderson could do it, and that path isn't closed, realistically it takes a lot of work (and that's being genereous), and if it did happen, I'd feel it's a payoff in the second half, not right now. Leaning unlikely at this point in time. (Oh dear, the Sanderson Elimination subforum has infected me...)

Edited May 31, 2023 by Kasimir

[alder24]

22 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Last time I saw this much outrage was when Shadolin and Shalladin ships were at war (oh no I've done it now.)

I vaguely remember that, I wasn't often reading forum back then, but I remember being torn between the two when reading WoR - on the one hand she made Kalladin happy and I wanted him to be happy, bur on the other hand Adolin was great and he loved Shallan, they fitted together very well. I'm glad how it ended.

17 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I wouldn't rule Moash out for his own Road to Damascus moment (interesting that he was stricken blind) and I think Sanderson could definitely make such a redemption work, but we'd have to see definite change in Moash for that to be plausible and IDK we're seeing any of that now, with Moash's tendency to double down. We'd also have to see genuine remorse, and doing it in the tight span of Stormlight 5 seems a bit questionable. Even then, I think parts of the fandom would be absolutely dead against it no matter what. Does mean it'll be harder to stick that landing.

tldr; in principle, I believe Sanderson could do it, and that path isn't closed, realistically it takes a lot of work (and that's being genereous), and if it did happen, I'd feel it's a payoff in the second half, not right now. Leaning unlikely at this point in time. (Oh dear, the Sanderson Elimination subforum has infected me...)

I fully agree. I know Brandon will make it work well if he decided to redeem Moash, but current Moash is just not fitted for redemption at all. He needs to change first and that takes time. There is little time left in SA5 for Moash to even start his change, not to mention complete redemption. I see some ways for this redemption to work, most ending with Moash death or even suicide/self-sacrifice. But personally I'm not sure if I even want Moash to get redemption. As he is right now - no, if he starts to change then maybe, but there is little time left for that before the end of SA5. 

Moash redemption happening in the second half is a far better idea than in SA5. Much more time, much more things will happen that will drive Moash to change and it will certainly work much better and wouldn't feel "rushed".

[Kasimir he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Moash redemption happening in the second half is a far better idea than in SA5. Much more time, much more things will happen that will drive Moash to change and it will certainly work much better and wouldn't feel "rushed".

Yeah, I think that's the main way I'd feel fine with it. It does tie into a bigger question about what is redemption and how most writers do redemption:

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I see some ways for this redemption to work, most ending with Moash death or even suicide/self-sacrifice. But personally I'm not sure if I even want Moash to get redemption.

Very much agreed. The fact there is this ambivalence towards Moash right now in my view suggests that there's more groundwork needed for a redemption arc. We could sort of see Sanderson go for a Gollum-type plot ("Pity? It's a pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play in it, for good or evil, before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many.") I wouldn't mind, depending on how it's sold in a Moash death route. But I also kind of feel redemption=death is a bit cheap, and maybe not necessarily about where the Archives are headed ("The choice of Honour is life.")

I guess to unpack what I mean by the fact it feels cheap: it's just that a lot of authors tend to do it with really Evil characters rather than have to put in the hard work of redeeming them. It's the "What happens if Vader hadn't conveniently died?" kind of ending where people then have to ask if one good act cancels out all the bad the character has done. How do you really atone or get redemption? Can you? It's a very, very meaty and good theme to unpack with a living character, but I definitely don't see it happening in the rush towards the end of the Stormlight 5 deadline.

Not really a disagreement here I guess, just unpacking more thoughts I had on the issue.

I do question the assertion there are no more emotional stakes for either of them. Moash has just murdered Phendorana and Teft and been struck blind by Navani. This is likely to keep him off the frontlines for the ten day rush, which spells out time for the character to either rethink or to double down. I don't know if Todium is as big about 'taking' Moash's emotions, either. It doesn't have to go upwards: Moash is likely tipped for a long fall towards rock bottom, and it doesn't have to involve Kal.

[cometaryorbit]

I don't know if Todium has any reason to care about Moash, anyway. He was useful in RoW because the plan was to use his Connection to corrupt Kaladin. Once that failed, I'm not sure he has any relevance to Odium's forces anymore except the Honorblade, and Odium would probably prefer it in someone else's hands now that Moash is blind - Windrunner powers don't really give a sensory ability. In fact, no Surge really does (Transportation/Transformation Cognitive sight might be the closest, and that's definitely not a replacement for regular sight in the way sonar or [Mistborn]

Spoiler

Allomantic iron/steel lines

can be).

So I think he might be irrelevant to SA5 and have his plot arc finish in the back half. I used to think he'd be Odium's champion, but post-blindness that now seems very unlikely.

[olivemyheart]

I used to be very strongly F--- Moash, but after thinking about RoW for a while I feel a lot more amicable to the idea of him being redeemed. It's not that I think he's a good person, but with the amount of narrative focus put on him in RoW it definitely feels like Sanderson is building up to something. We know Moash feels guilty for his actions at least, even if his reaction to that guilt is to double down with self-justifications. Maybe he will continue to hurtle towards rock bottom and break through it, reaching levels of moral depravity previously unknown to Roshar, but I can't deny it would be hilarious to see Sanderson take the most hated character he's ever made and turn him around .

The idea of Kaladin needing to choose between Moash and others/the world is interesting but it doesn't feel quite right to me. Kaladin already grappled with similar ethical dilemmas (he had a crisis in OB over whether it was right to kill Parshendi), and the concept of sacrificing one person for the greater good is extremely anti-Windrunner (it's the reason he and Moash fell out in the first place). Seems like a step backwards to have Moash die because Kaladin chose not to save him.

[cometaryorbit]

I'd be ok with redeeming Moash, if it's a real redemption - ie he actually admits that what he did was deeply wrong, changes his life, and does something radically different with his life from then on.

But I don't think there is going to be room for that (either in page space or in-world time) in SA5.