Sixth of the Dusk Spoiler Thread

[Pathfinder]

I think the ending meshes well with the endings of the other stories in the anthology, which most all of them have that "bigger conflicts ahead" sort of open ending.  I think it was cool.

 

Aviars are awesome, definitely wish there was more exposure to them.

 

My thinking is that the emerald pool is just water, since Vathi and Dusk go hide in it and nothing weird or magical happens.

 

I like the idea of the Ones Above being scadrians or having access to scadrian tech.  It's possible that scadrians with their tech/magic, which Brandon has confirmed has space travel built into it, are the real frontrunners of space travel and policy.  The "prime directive" screams Harmony to me.

 

Considering just how big a deal Vathi considers Dusk's raising a mainland bird into powers to be (and her passing off of Sak as not Aviar upon first seeing him), even before the worms discovery, that implies to me that the abilities are based on type of bird and that there are at least a handful of different non-aviar breeds of the birds back on the mainland.  (The previous sentence was probably just awful, grammatically, I apologize.)  That makes me wonder just how many breeds there currently are with known abilities.

 

I think the psychic powers are most likely to be something inherent to the area (direct Splinter presence/influence, perhaps?) rather than EVERYTHING with psychic powers having the worms.  IIRC, even things like the deathants have psychic sensing.  And the fact that the Aviar have to go all the way to Patji, no matter what island they're on, implies that the worms are super localized to that spot.  That implies to me that that's where the Splinter is, even if it isn't the pool itself.

Well this may tie into your post, or not but this for some reason popped up in my mind after reading your post. So we all accept everything on and around the island has some sort of psychic ability. So what makes the Aviar unique? Their ability to SHARE their psychic ability to who they bond with. This leads me to think that potentially if Dusk and his planet learn how the worms work, then humans could gain their OWN psychic abilities. Now I am not sure if this is where Brandon is going with the story, but if we build on the concept that different breeds of bird, when exposed to the worms result in different abilities, then would different ethnicities have the same result? Also lets take a step back from humans and focus on the birds again. What would happen if you breed one type of aviar with another? Would one ability be dominant over the other? Random? or would a whole new ability pop up?

[Iarwainiel I she/her]

Just an idea - not really a theory ... What if the Ones Above are from Nalthis, not Scadrial? Do we know how [you-know-who] got to Roshar from Nalthis? What if [that person] came on a ship, instead of the way Hoid arrived?

 

It seems like most commenters have the same feeling that I did: that the Ones Above are looking for more resources to fight against Odium, not support him, and it's interesting to me that this is our instinct. It's probably because we're so used to looking for plot twists, and having the space-travelling aliens be evil would be what someone less well-versed in the cosmere might think. :-)

 

I agree that this story is a little rough around the edges, but overall I really liked it and want to read a lot more of Sixth in days/years to come.

[skaa he/him]

Assuming the device does what it's said to do, I think that it's likely that the machine is a mistfabial that uses a combination of Allomantic bronze, to seek for Investiture, and Allomantic duralumin to increase the range of the device. That would explain why the Aviar were so affected when the device was opened.

 

I also agree that something similar to duralumin-boosting happened. I'd also like to point out that we've seen duralumin-enhanced future-sensing Allomancy in HoA, and its effect is to let the user know the ultimate long-term result of certain actions. I believe that showing Dusk and Vathi their own corpses lying around everywhere they look was the way Sak's ability presents the grim future of Patji (and likely the whole First of the Sun) now that their civilization is on the fast track towards advanced Realmatic knowledge and having to deal with the nastier forces of the Cosmere.

 

That was my interpretation when I first read the story, and I think it's sort of backed up by Brandon's essay afterwards:

 

However, as I approached the end of the first third of the story and realized I needed to up the stakes, Sak offered the perfect opportunity. She could show Dusk his corpse. Could she show the corpse of the island too? Could I devise an event so dangerous, it drove Dusk to cross the island at night, towing a half-trained homeisler? Could I put the entire island at risk?

 

 

Could Sak show the corpse of the island? No, she can't. She can only show the corpse of her host. A warning about a larger existential threat, like the death of the island and the "dusk" of everything, can only manifest via the imagery of her host's corpse. Hence, corpses everywhere.

 

 

What I don't understand is how the specifications of a machine like that are supposed to help the locals develop more advanced technologies.  If the machine is any kind of fabrial, it would be impossible to duplicate on a different Shard/Splinter world.  Even the "concepts and ideas" explained (realmatic theory?) wouldn't be as applicable to the way Investiture works on the archipelago.  

 

The other problem I have is that the assumption (held by Sixth, so perhaps he is simply wrong) is that these instructions will somehow help the locals build machines that can fly or be space-worthy.  

 

If the Realmatic Theory presented in the machine's manual is detailed enough, the company's scientists might be able to find clues on what kinds of Invested effects to look for in their minor Shardworld. Given the information Vathi got from Dusk, the solution would be obvious: send chicks of every species of bird they have to Patji, create as many types of Aviar as they can, study each type of Investiture these new Aviars can bestow, and see which types of Aviar Investiture can be used in ways described in the manual. Heck, the manual might even contain clues as to how Invested living things could bestow their power to non-living things (e.g. Aviars granting powers to ships). In other words, Aviar technology.

 

Even if they don't find an Aviar that could grant space-faring ability (like, if Aviars can only grant Cognitive abilities), they might still find one that can grant the power to enter Shadesmar, and that would be enough to travel across the Cosmere.

 

 

---

 

 

Anyway, I liked the story a lot. I can understand why Brandon had to leave out details like what other known Aviar powers there are, why the Ones Above are only mentioned but are not seen, and why the machine wasn't turned on. These are things that had to be sacrificed to keep the story focused. Even without those things, we've already read enough fantasy books (certainly enough Cosmere books) to get an idea of the possibilities for the Aviar powers. If Brandon wants, he could take this short story later on and make it a chapter (or two) of a full novel set on First of the Sun. But I think the short story already works as it stands.

 

About the machine, we know from Vathi that they had already used it before, and it didn't seem to cause the same disturbance as when Winds opened it in the story, so we can conclude that the machine was designed to work exactly like a harmless mapping machine as long as its machinery was left unopened. So if Winds really turned the machine on (as Dusk assumed) instead of opening it as he actually did, there would have been no "duralumin" effect, Sak wouldn't have shown Dusk the "death of the island", and Vathi wouldn't have had to talk about the alien machines at all. The activation of the mapping function was a red herring. It was the opening of the machinery that was important to the story.

Edited July 21, 2014 by skaa

[Pathfinder]

About the machine, we know from Vathi that they had already used it before, and it didn't seem to cause the same disturbance as when Winds opened it in the story, so we can conclude that the machine was designed to work exactly like a harmless mapping machine as long as its machinery was left unopened. So if Winds really turned the machine on (as Dusk assumed) instead of opening it as he actually did, there would have been no "duralumin" effect, Sak wouldn't have shown Dusk the "death of the island", and Vathi wouldn't have had to talk about the alien machines at all. The activation of the mapping function was a red herring. It was the opening of the machinery that was important to the story.

Actually your last point lends me to think it was not a dularium effect. Like you said, we know they turned it on before, and did not get this reaction. Also like you said the activation was a red herring, the true goal of the Ones Above was for the machine to be opened and figured out, so the indigenous people would advance enough for trade to be possible. I don't know about you, but if I had a strong enough understanding of reamatics enough to produce faster than light space travel, then I would be able to guess that dularium which magnifies my own abilities and machines would more than likely magnify any ability on the planet. Now as I type this, I admit this could have been the point. Show the indigenous life how powerful the Ones Above's technology by "accidently" amplifying their powers, and make them crave more but I do not think this is the case. It is the equivalency of setting off a grenade in the middle of a group of people, not knowing if they have the proper shielding to survive it, and then expect them to be grateful and try to emulate it. I still see it as a huge psychic backlash across the board to all aviar of the implications that "something is coming", and that Sak was the vehicle Brandon used to explain/portray it to Dusk. Again just my own extrapolation. 

 

edit: actually a better way to elaborate what i wrote. If I have this understanding of reamatics enough to have faster than light travel, then I will know what will happen when that machine is opened. So if the case is dularium, then I will know it will have an effect on all the aviar amplifying their power, whatever those powers may be. If that is the case, then the question is why would I want that to happen, or why would I be ok with that happening? As of this point I do not have an answer that results in an advantage to the Ones Above. Now my line of reasoning doesn't conclusively prove it is not dularium, I am just pointing to the thought that if it was dularium, then following the line of reasoning I presented, it would not make sense for them to arrange the machine to be opened. I am fully open to other lines of reasoning of course. 

Edited July 21, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Iarwainiel I she/her]

Hey, does anyone know why "Sixth of the Dusk" is shown on Brandon's completion status chart as "Proofs - 100%"?

 

Isn't the novella already published? Or is the novella just part of what will be a full novel, and that's what is being proofed?

 

Don't mean to nit-pick, but it's the first time I've seen the chart appear to be wrong (and also I really want more of this story now!).

 

(Is Peter lurking nearby with a clarification Aviar on his shoulder? :-)

Edited July 25, 2014 by old aggie

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Hey, does anyone know why "Sixth of the Dusk" is shown on Brandon's completion status chart as "Proofs - 100%"?

 

Isn't the novella already published? Or is the novella just part of what will be a full novel, and that's what is being proofed?

 

Don't mean to nit-pick, but it's the first time I've seen the chart appear to be wrong (and also I really want more of this story now!).

 

(Is Peter lurking nearby with a clarification Aviar on his shoulder? :-)

 

I think it just needs to be updated.  The novella is the whole story.

[Cardello]

No one else in this thread, except for Masaru, felt a Khriss vibe from Vathi....?

[Argent he/him]

Considering that we don't know anything about Khriss... no. Oh, other than she is allegedly in White Sand.

[Dellexe he/him]

(Still hoping I can get my hands on a copy of White Sand)

-

The names from White Sand are starting to pop up more and more here since the comics were announced.

[Pathfinder]

(Still hoping I can get my hands on a copy of White Sand)

-

The names from White Sand are starting to pop up more and more here since the comics were announced.

Just go to Brandon's website, and select "contact me". In the email request a copy and shortly after he will email it to you. Both times I have asked for one of his unpublished books, he has sent them very promptly and despite his claim that white sand was unpolished, it was very enjoyable to me and I can't wait till the graphic novel!

Edited July 30, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Dellexe he/him]

Just go to Brandon's website, and select "contact me". In the email request a copy and shortly after he will email it to you. Both times I have asked for one of his unpublished books, he has sent them very promptly and despite his claim that white sand was unpolished, it was very enjoyable to me and I can't wait till the graphic novel!

I did that a while back. I haven't gotten anything back, though. D:

[Pathfinder]

I did that a while back. I haven't gotten anything back, though. D:

Ack, maybe try again. I literally did so earlier today for Aether of Night, and got a reply like 10 minutes later. Could have been they were swamped back when you originally did it and they have a better set up now. 

 

edit: now that I checked my email, 10 minutes may be a gross exageration, but I definitely received it same day, both when I requested White Sand a month or so ago, and when I requested Aether today. I used gmail, could it be your email settings?

Edited July 30, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Dellexe he/him]

Hmm. I'll try again later after I go through my email.

[happyman he/him]

You know, I agree with everybody here saying that turning the machine on was a red herring.  In fact, I would say that it is essential to the ending of the story that it was a red herring.

 

The ending made it abundantly clear that the larger problem they are facing is the change in their relationship with the Ones Above.  It strongly suggests that opening the machine essentially wrenched their world into a wildly different place, or at least drastically increased the chance that it would end up in a different, and much more dangerous, place.  (I rather imagine that other events in the Cosmere, like killing the Lord Ruler, would have had similar wide-scale effects if there had been magic capable of seeing that far in the future.)  Sak's interpretation of this sudden, enormous, practically overwhelming, increase in the dangers he faced was an immediate overload of bodies.  It was, essentially, a metaphor saying that death now lies down all paths, not just the obviously bad ones.

 

I suspect that Sak's power is a lot like the usual Shardic ability to see the future, but much smaller than a full shard, kind of like how Atium burners can see very clearly into the future, but only a couple of seconds.  However, size can be changed in different ways.  I suspect that Sak can see quite a ways into the future, but only focused on one person, and then only "attuned" to death, and only vaguely at that.  Then either the bird of the human "interprets" this vague information metaphorically in a way to get the information through.  Thus every time Sixth sees his body, he is really just filtering a vague premonition of deadly danger through his mind.  At any rate, I think we can sensibly say we shouldn't take his corpses too literally.

[Iarwainiel I she/her]

 

@ happyman: "wrenched their world into a wildly different place" (yes I know I didn't do the quote right - oh well)

 

I know it's probably not what you meant, but...

 

What if the Ones Above actually can "wrench" worlds through time and space? Kind of like the Vorlons did with the Babylon 4 Station in the old B5 TV series (yes, I was/am a big B5 fan :-).

 

What if the Avian symbiosis will be a secret weapon in the war ahead?

 

Unlikely, but interesting to ponder.

[Asperity he/him]

I finally got around to reading this today. Sad that I missed the discussion but maybe I can offer something new. I don't know.

For starters, I thought that the story was advanced in the Cosmere chronology and was happy to see that confirmed in the other thread by WoB.

 

Like some others mentioned, I have a feeling that the lake on Patji /could/ be a Shardpool. It could explain the "minds are hidden here but we don't know why" occurrence and could be a reason why the symbionts spawn there, of all places. Also, Patji is the largest island in the Pantheon so I suppose it could make sense for a Shardpool to be located there?

 

Last, and I'm surprised nobody else had this theory, but I don't believe the Ones Above are Scadrians at all. Or Nalthians. Or affiliated with major Shardworlds as we know. I think they may be affiliated with the God Beyond. It would also explain why the Ones Above are attempting to research the Aviars since the symbionts (which they would quickly find out about) seem to be an affect of Investiture and it could be related to 'The Plan'. I have an inkling that the stand-alone novellas will feature Shardworlds that have more involvement from the opposition so I suppose I won't really find out if this is true or not until Silence Divine is finished.

 

The meta seems to be heading towards a possible Adonalsium & Friends vs. the God Beyond & Friends climax. Obviously, this is only one such possibility as we seem to not be able to predict Brandon well (which is a good thing) but I don't believe the God Beyond faction is necessarily malevolent.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Last, and I'm surprised nobody else had this theory, but I don't believe the Ones Above are Scadrians at all. Or Nalthians. Or affiliated with major Shardworlds as we know. I think they may be affiliated with the God Beyond. It would also explain why the Ones Above are attempting to research the Aviars since the symbionts (which they would quickly find out about) seem to be an affect of Investiture and it could be related to 'The Plan'. I have an inkling that the stand-alone novellas will feature Shardworlds that have more involvement from the opposition so I suppose I won't really find out if this is true or not until Silence Divine is finished.

 

The meta seems to be heading towards a possible Adonalsium & Friends vs. the God Beyond & Friends climax. Obviously, this is only one such possibility as we seem to not be able to predict Brandon well (which is a good thing) but I don't believe the God Beyond faction is necessarily malevolent.

 

We know that the Ones Above are from a world we've seen.

[Curiosity he/him]

Just got around to reading this. Note that Patji's fingers only grow on... Patji. The emerald lake is there, which most likely means that there is a large source of Investiture,since we've never seen colored pools/lakes in the Cosmere without something Adonalsium going on, for those of you who doubt that it's a Splinterpool. (I wonder if Splinters can create...) Patji's fingers are definitely Invested to a higher degree than other plants.

 

How the nightmaws and everything else got the mental "sight" power... that's going to bug me. (They ate the worms at one point? Eating the Aviars over several generations gave them that power? Maybe a few gained it, and when they died other scavengers ate them, giving them the power? The world may never know...)

 

I also think that the Aviars' Spiritwebs are like those of Mistings. Each species has a distinct way of "interpreting" the investiture of the worm/fruit/tree/pool. (And truth be told, I think that Vathi's handheld machine sounds so much like a mechanical Allomantic bronze machine.) And it would be interesting to see how these worms would affect humans given that theory. 

[Maverick]

Hey still new here at the moment but did anyone besides me feel that the death of First of the Sky(?) might have been committed by a world hopper who then took his Aviar afterwards or did I completely misread it?

[Pathfinder]

Hey still new here at the moment but did anyone besides me feel that the death of First of the Sky(?) might have been committed by a world hopper who then took his Aviar afterwards or did I completely misread it?

It is a possibility I never considered before, but I am leaning towards no considering his journal was still on his body and the journal literally details all his traps and where to find the rest of his aviar. If I were intending to kill someone for their belongings, I would go through ALL their stuff, and I would most certainly not leave behind a book detailing EVERYTHING I need in order to loot. 

[RawToast225 he/him]

I freaking loved this short story. I once I started, I couldn't put it down.

The similarities in the bird/worms and alamancy are stark. I think that the methods are also similar. The only thing that is extremely different is the bestowing of power. Investiture can do this without spikes. Kind of. Just pointing out facts.

[Pathfinder]

I freaking loved this short story. I once I started, I couldn't put it down.

The similarities in the bird/worms and alamancy are stark. I think that the methods are also similar. The only thing that is extremely different is the bestowing of power. Investiture can do this without spikes. Kind of. Just pointing out facts.

Actually you referencing allomancy made me think of something. With allomancy, feruchemy, awakening, and (stormlighting?), there is a resource used and expended. Allomancy being metal, Feruchemy being the attribute stored, awakening is the breath, stormlight is the stormlight so what is the resource that is used/expended for the birds? Or any creature in that world for that matter with a psychic ability? Is it a resource we just haven't seen yet? Do they not need to expend resources, hence the interest of the ones above? Is this the first time we saw a magic system that doesn't need to expend a resource to fuel it?

 

edit: I know the metal is merely used as a channel for investiture, but I was using resource as a catch all to reference a component required to make an ability function. With the birds and wildlife, the ability seems set to "always on". 

Edited November 5, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Oudeis he/him]

I suspect that in Awakening you meant color.

 

AonDor and the Shades from Shadows for Silence are both examples of Investitures that seem to operate without any physical cost. Both seem to be powered primarily from other realms (in both cases I personally suspect the Spiritual, though we granted don't know enough to be sure). But good point, the parasites seem to be another example.

 

Perhaps we can look at the similarities between these systems and try to determine why some systems require a physical loss, and others don't.

 

Hrm... as I think about it, the death of the physical body could be considered a "cost" to begin the Investiture... though I personally suspect it will turn out to be a side-effect. Still, this matches Awakening, where you must pay color to begin an Investiture, but not to keep it going. Unlike allomancy or stormlight, where a cost must continuously be paid in order to keep the investiture on. And in allomancy, the metal isn't the power itself, while in stormlight the stormlight itself does seem to be the actual power.

 

This is all fascinating and warrants further thought. Thank you for giving me something interesting to think about!

[Pathfinder]

AonDor and the Shades from Shadows for Silence are both examples of Investitures that seem to operate without any physical cost. Both seem to be powered primarily from other realms (in both cases I personally suspect the Spiritual, though we granted don't know enough to be sure). But good point, the parasites seem to be another example.

 

This is all fascinating and warrants further thought. Thank you for giving me something interesting to think about!

The AonDor and the Shades I still view differently, (though I admit its me nitpicking) because with the AonDor you (at least at the stage it is in at the time of the book), need to be close to elantris, and draw the aon. With Shadows for Silence, I do not believe we have any indication that......

 

Her mother is necessarily her mother. It could be the ghost of her mother, it could be a being with some memories of her mother, it could be a being in the shape of her mother. She arranged to have the big bad guy in the way, and flicked the blood on him, all which any shade would react to. Truthfully I do think it was her mother, but I do not feel the current evidence (or at least any I know of), clearly shows that it is her mother in form of a shade

 

While with the birds, as long as they go to the island at some point, in order to attain the parasite, they get an ability. Now the parasite could be feeding off them, or the parasite could be circumvented just by going to the pool. No idea. But from what I have seen, pretty much once you get the ability, you have it, always on, passively, where ever you go (on that planet). 

 

Thanks, glad I could get some contemplation all a peculating 

 

edit: so I found another thread where you and Weiry talk about WoB on the subject of the shades, so I stand corrected and newly informed 

Edited November 7, 2014 by Pathfinder