Ethics of Hemalurgy in furure Mistborn eras

AllomanticIron · May 27, 2023

It's pretty clear that hemalurgy is going to be a pretty big plot point in the upcoming eras. It's apparent that it can be used as part of the process to make medallions, and unkeyed investiture through feruchemy seems like it might be a big deal. So, I'm wondering what ethics will look like when it comes to obtaining hemalurgic powers. These are my two ideas for how they might obtain spikes:

-1. Dying metalborn. Perhaps a misting/ ferring who is on the verge of death would be able to consent to having their powers taken (and being killed) via a hemalurgic spike. Kind of like how organ doning works today,

-2. The newly discovered methods for taking a person's powers without killing them. The method used in TLM on the captives. Maybe a healthy person could consent to losing their powers, perhaps for a decent sum of cash?

What do you guys think?

Tamriel Wolfsbaine · May 27, 2023

41 minutes ago, AllomanticIron said:

It's pretty clear that hemalurgy is going to be a pretty big plot point in the upcoming eras. It's apparent that it can be used as part of the process to make medallions, and unkeyed investiture through feruchemy seems like it might be a big deal. So, I'm wondering what ethics will look like when it comes to obtaining hemalurgic powers. These are my two ideas for how they might obtain spikes:

-1. Dying metalborn. Perhaps a misting/ ferring who is on the verge of death would be able to consent to having their powers taken (and being killed) via a hemalurgic spike. Kind of like how organ doning works today,

-2. The newly discovered methods for taking a person's powers without killing them. The method used in TLM on the captives. Maybe a healthy person could consent to losing their powers, perhaps for a decent sum of cash?

What do you guys think?

Basically what you have with all of the Returned on Nalthis. "Let us make you a drab and we will pay for your family to be taken care of."

I also forsee gold factories where unsealed metalminds will be created and filled all the time allowing people to tap large amounts of gold and heal back their spiritweb nearly instantly so that their power may be spiked multiple times!

Terrifying to think that there may be an abuse of hemalurgy to that scale but it certainly appears to be the direction it could go into.

alder24 · May 27, 2023

8 hours ago, AllomanticIron said:

It's pretty clear that hemalurgy is going to be a pretty big plot point in the upcoming eras. It's apparent that it can be used as part of the process to make medallions, and unkeyed investiture through feruchemy seems like it might be a big deal. So, I'm wondering what ethics will look like when it comes to obtaining hemalurgic powers. These are my two ideas for how they might obtain spikes:

-1. Dying metalborn. Perhaps a misting/ ferring who is on the verge of death would be able to consent to having their powers taken (and being killed) via a hemalurgic spike. Kind of like how organ doning works today,

-2. The newly discovered methods for taking a person's powers without killing them. The method used in TLM on the captives. Maybe a healthy person could consent to losing their powers, perhaps for a decent sum of cash?

What do you guys think?

I think the best way to handle this is to create a Donor Center, where people can voluntarily donate their powers and attributes via Hemalurgy. Donors would have to be fully informed about consequences of Hemalurgy and possibility (or certainty) of death. Those powers could be then given by spikes either to the previously specified adult family members (without any previous criminal record), be used in hemalurgic experiments, or given to a special swat team to increase public safety. Of course donors should not only get full free medical attention for life, but also be paid for giving up their powers or attributes, just like with Breaths on Nalthis, if the donor dies, money should be given to his family.

There can also be introduced a new penalty for the worst criminals - death by Hemalurgy, or stealing their powers with Hemalurgy (if they can survive) - of course only the most severe crimes should be punished by this. Most Metalborns should have a chance for redemption.

Keep in mind, even if a donor survives spiking, he will suffer severely, he would end up worse than a Drab. There would also be consequences for him in the afterlife. Some of those negative effects in the donor's soul can be managed with gold medallions, but this will require a lot of healing, and it will only create a patch on the soul, not bring back the real part. Moreover, for recipients, each spike damages the soul, creates a hole in the soul, which can't be easily repaired, and will never be fully fixed. The more spikes a person has, the more mental health problems he will suffer. And there might be some complications for children of spikes recipiants. Hemalurgy, while it has a huge potential, is always ruinous.

Spoiler

Volratho

If someone was tapping gold, would spiking a separate ability out of them kill them? Or would it work at all?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible to spike someone without killing them. But they'd never be the same. It would be worse than being a drab.

#SandersonChat Twitter Q&A with Audible.com (Feb. 4, 2016)

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Vivenna at the Safe House

Vivenna is right about what happens to a person when they lose their Breath. It is a part of your soul, and without one, you are more prone to depression, you get sick much more easily, and you're generally more irritable.

I included this mention here because I'm betting that most people who read the book side with Denth and assume he's right when he talks about these things. But don't be too judgmental about the Idrians—yes, they're biased, but the Hallandren are too in a lot of ways. It's not as simple as one side always being right and the other wrong. In this case, the Idrian teachings are correct, and most Hallandren are looking for justifications when they say that giving up one's Breath isn't all that damaging to them.

Warbreaker Annotations (Oct. 26, 2010)

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Forty-One

Vivenna, Sick and Disoriented, Gets Turned Away by the Restaurant Keeper

One of the ways I decided to make Vivenna's sections here work better was by enhancing the fuzziness of her mind. By giving her this sense of numbness, I hope to indicate that something is not right with her.

It's common for someone who suddenly becomes a Drab to get sick almost immediately. For a time, her immune system was magically enhanced and warded, in a way, to keep her from becoming ill. With that removed suddenly, sickness can strike. She hasn't built up immunities to the sicknesses going around, and by becoming a Drab, her immune system suddenly works far worse than that of other people.

These things combined made her come down with something pretty nasty the very day she put away her Breath. This would have killed her, eventually, if she hadn't done something about it. She would have grown so dizzy and confused that she wouldn't have even been able to walk.

By sending men to find her, Denth saved her life.

Anyway, I feel that these scenes work much better now. We can look at Vivenna's time on the streets in the same surreal sense that she does. They happened in the past, in a strange dream state. In that way, they can seem much longer than just two chapters and a couple of weeks.

Warbreaker Annotations (Feb. 7, 2011)

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Vivenna's Thoughts on Being a Drab

A lot of what happened to Vivenna—how she saw the world and how she acted—was influenced by being a Drab. As I've said before, the Hallandren aren't right when they say losing your Breath does nothing to you. Most Drabs struggle with depression, and the fact that they're almost always sick doesn't help either.

And so, Vivenna's time on the streets was artificially made more dreary and terrible than it truly was. Being a Drab, being sick, the shock of being betrayed—these things combined to give you the person you saw in the previous two chapters. It's a way to cut a corner. I wanted Vivenna to feel like she'd been on the streets for months, but for it only to have been a few weeks.

She is able to make her hair change colors again. This is a representation of the fact that she has started to pull out of the nightmare. She's slightly in control of her world again, and the roughest time for her has passed. There's also a clue in that hair, one that Vasher mentions. Because of it, and her heritage, and something very mysterious in the past, every member of the royal line has a fraction of a divine Returned Breath in them. That makes it much easier for them to learn to Awaken than a normal person.

Warbreaker Annotations (Feb. 22, 2011)

Spoiler

zas678

You've said that Inquisitors could have children. Would those children have a better chance at being Allomancers compared to if they had the kids before they were Inquisitors?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but there also could be...complications.

/r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012)

Spoiler

Lady Radagu

Does being the donor of a Hemalurgic spike have any implications for your afterlife? Or how about the recipient?

Brandon Sanderson

That is actually going to depend on-- Okay. Yes it has implications for the afterlife. Yes.

Lady Radagu

Okay so are there a bunch of Scadrian souls wandering the afterlife with holes in their personalities or memory or identity? Or some with extra parts tacked on?

Brandon Sanderson

So it has implications, but they are not exactly ones that you are assuming. So in the cosmere there is "dead" and "mostly dead". Okay? And this has been shown several times so once someone dies there is a period before they transition. Sazed talks about this in Mistborn 3. And so most of the implications are for before transition. Does that make sense? Post-transition you are going to have to ask the philosophers and the theologians who are the ones that talk about that. So there is an afterlife and an after-afterlife. Not as many implications for after-afterlife. Middle? Yes. Okay?

Firefight release party (Jan. 5, 2015)

Spoiler

Miss_Silver

Is there a maximum number of spikes a person can have? Would having more spikes eventually cause issues, be it mental or physical limitations?

Also do the benefits from spikes have some form of diminishing returns, or could some one have like, 200 bronze spikes and be able to sense a person burning metal through copper from 50 miles away?

Brandon Sanderson

1) Yes, it would cause big issues.

2) #1 interferes greatly with what you would like to do here, but there are other ways of magnifying the powers to the extent you postulate.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018)

Spoiler

Kurkistan

So you've said that healing is like the Spiritual wants to heal and then it filters through the Cognitive, but how's that work with healing wounds to the soul like Hemalurgy or Shardblades? What do you refer to to heal the soul at that point?

Brandon Sanderson

You need to make a patch on the soul with Investiture.

Kurkistan

So how's the Investiture know where to go, what to look like?

Brandon Sanderson

Well your soul is an ideal. So if you can get it up there, there are ways to do-- to recreate that with um... See I'm getting into stuff for later books.

Argent

No, that's okay.

Kurkistan

So when Hemalurgy rips something off the soul, is that the ideal soul or some sub-soul?

Brandon Sanderson

That is off of your soul, and it can be healed; but what it's going to be doing is creating a patch of new soul. So it will not be your original soul. Does that make sense?

Kurkistan

Okay, that- well, not completely, but I think that's your intention.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Bystander

If you do that, is that like Frankenstein's monster, or is it like a graft that's absorb--

Brandon Sanderson

Less horrifying- Less horrifying than Frankenstein's monster, but it is a graft that is like-- It is not your original soul.

Bystander

Yeah, but in modern medicine stuff like that is absorbed-

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, in this you will always have a scar on your soul that something else has patched over.

Kurkistan

So Kaladin shouldn't just keep getting his arm chopped?

Brandon Sanderson

*ignoring/not-hearing Kurkistan just now* But that is what happens with most forms of Investiture in the first place.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

therunner · May 27, 2023

8 hours ago, AllomanticIron said:

It's pretty clear that hemalurgy is going to be a pretty big plot point in the upcoming eras. It's apparent that it can be used as part of the process to make medallions, and unkeyed investiture through feruchemy seems like it might be a big deal. So, I'm wondering what ethics will look like when it comes to obtaining hemalurgic powers. These are my two ideas for how they might obtain spikes:

-1. Dying metalborn. Perhaps a misting/ ferring who is on the verge of death would be able to consent to having their powers taken (and being killed) via a hemalurgic spike. Kind of like how organ doning works today,

-2. The newly discovered methods for taking a person's powers without killing them. The method used in TLM on the captives. Maybe a healthy person could consent to losing their powers, perhaps for a decent sum of cash?

What do you guys think?

I don't think it will be used that much to be honest, at least not legally.

At the end of the day, Hemalurgy always requires forcible mutilation of soul of some person, and spiking anything but powers causes physical changes in recipient (in all cases we have seen).

7 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I also forsee gold factories where unsealed metalminds will be created and filled all the time allowing people to tap large amounts of gold and heal back their spiritweb nearly instantly so that their power may be spiked multiple times!

I don't think that would be possible. Per the stack of WoBs, even Miles would have to have a lot of healing stored, and if it is a lot for Miles, a compounder, then regular Feruchemists have no hope of having enough healing to do so.

Tamriel Wolfsbaine · May 27, 2023

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I don't think it will be used that much to be honest, at least not legally.

At the end of the day, Hemalurgy always requires forcible mutilation of soul of some person, and spiking anything but powers causes physical changes in recipient (in all cases we have seen).

I don't think that would be possible. Per the stack of WoBs, even Miles would have to have a lot of healing stored, and if it is a lot for Miles, a compounder, then regular Feruchemists have no hope of having enough healing to do so.

That is where the donor centers come in. Give a person a medallion and pay them per the time they store. You get a couple hundred people participating each day and you can get what you want. Its an investment. You pay for one murder spike on the black market for cheap or get a legal one for lots that didn't result in murder. The sustainable way will always be the expensive way. But there is a sustainable option.

therunner · May 27, 2023

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

That is where the donor centers come in. Give a person a medallion and pay them per the time they store. You get a couple hundred people participating each day and you can get what you want. Its an investment. You pay for one murder spike on the black market for cheap or get a legal one for lots that didn't result in murder. The sustainable way will always be the expensive way. But there is a sustainable option.

I don't think that would scale.

If to heal spiked out spiritweb consumes enough Investiture that it would be lot for Miles, I would wager it is in realm of multiple years worth of storage. And since multiple people cannot store into the same metalmind, that means you would need to wait years to get enough Investiture. Sure, this could be parallelized, but it still requires you to pay someone to be in devastatingly bad health for years. And you need to keep them alive!

Additionally, Medallions are more limited compared to 'natural' powers. We see this on Roshar, where Honorblades are unable to heal Spiritweb damage.
Considering that Medallions work on similar principles, there is a strong possibility that Medallion could not heal spiritweb damage, and only someone who is naturally Gold Ferring could heal themselves like that.

alder24 · May 27, 2023

@Tamriel Wolfsbaine WoB about Miles needing a lot of healing to heal damage to the soul, using medallions to heal won't be possible on that scale:

Spoiler

HazelCharm47

Let's say we have a hypothetical situation with Miles Hundredlives. In this scenario, he is wearing a gold metalmind filled to the brim with stored healing power. He is then spiked with a cadmium spike and loses his gold allomancy.

Now, if I recall from various WoBs, he would be able to heal using the gold metalmind and regain his gold allomancy. I could be misremembering and he cannot heal it, but I believe he would be able to since it is part of his Identity.

However, one question I have never seen the answer to is this: what happens to the ability in the spike? Is the allomantic ability still contained in the spike, leading to a duplicate? Or is the spike's ability lost? Or maybe I have this whole thing wrong and Miles could never have regained the ability in the first place.

If the ability duplicates (which I doubt), that could lead to some crazy things. Also, this applies to any Twinborn with gold Feruchemy, I just thought Miles was a good example I guess

Brandon Sanderson

I'd like to see the exact WoB's here to make sure I'm being consistent, as I don't know that I confirmed you could regain lost powers--only that you could heal from hemalurgic soul damage. Most likely, what you'd end up with is a person who has been healed and can remove the spike from their body without damage, and without needing it to hold their soul together--but who has lost the ability in the spike.

Regardless, though, what you want here (the mass production of spikes charged and even blanked) is possible with the right levels of investiture. It's an energy, like things in our world. The difficulty is finding out how to 1) get enough investiture and 2) key it to the right people and/or magic.

Hope that's a little more clear.

That said, a lot of times people just ask me if something is possible--and a lot of things are possible, but just very difficult. And with the right boost of investiture, in the right circumstances, it WOULD be possible to regrow lost (to spikes) powers. It's just highly unlikely.

I'm not sure if the questions people are asking me are ones I've qualified, or not, in these instances. Also, this is all something I'm playing with still behind the scenes as we enter the modern age of Mistborn.

HazelCharm47

As requested, here are the WoBs I believe are related. They might be obsolete, however. And I assume things will get changed a lot before Era 4, but hey, it's fun to ask anyways

WoB #1:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9434

This one states that as long as Miles still has his Identity, he would be able to use his Feruchemical metalminds after being spiked and would be able to heal.

WoB #2:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e983

This one says that Miles would be able to heal his soul using Feruchemical healing and regain his gold Allomancy (assuming he survives the spiking). I think this is the most essential one!

WoB #3:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335

This one is only somewhat related - implies that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are spiritually part of him.

WoB #4:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435

Also tangentially related - damage to the soul from Hemalurgy can be healed (Although this might just be a Hoid thing). I guess the question could be expanded to include non-Feruchemical healing as a way to repair the soul after being spiked.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I don't think any of those are specifically inaccurate. I just didn't quite understand what people were trying to get out of me. A lot of times, I don't know quite what people are trying to get out of me. I can see now they're trying to figure out.

I see now, and I appreciate you putting this all together for me so I can see what the fans are trying to figure out. So the answer is a cautious yes. The problem here is that he'd need to compound a TON of healing first--but yes, it would work. You could theoretically turn someone like Miles into an invested spike factory.

If he didn't have enough healing stored, though, he'd end up with a healed soul but a gap (like a scar on his soul) where his spiked-out abilities were. That could theoretically be healed with application of more investiture, depending on things like how he views himself, and if you could get the right type of investiture.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 6, 2020)

7 minutes ago, therunner said:

Additionally, Medallions are more limited compared to 'natural' powers. We see this on Roshar, where Honorblades are unable to heal Spiritweb damage.
Considering that Medallions work on similar principles, there is a strong possibility that Medallion could not heal spiritweb damage, and only someone who is naturally Gold Ferring could heal themselves like that.

That's something I've never considered before, that's a great point that should be true. That changes a lot.

Isilel · May 28, 2023

18 hours ago, therunner said:

And since multiple people cannot store into the same metalmind,

IIRC nothing in the books suggests that they can't. As long as they can pass around whatever means that lets them store unkeyed attribute, multiple people should be able to fill the same metalmind. In fact, that's pretty much the only way for medallion use to become common, as we have been led to expect will happen in era 3.

There is also a possible workaround for the lack of Twinborn compounding if they manage to figure out how to prime harmonium with health. It might be as simple as a Gold misting burning an unkeyed gold metalmind... or not.

However, the true revolution will come with something that was hinted to be eventually feasible in the future in TLM - wholly synthetic spikes charged with reprogrammed investiture that wouldn't have to come from people at all.

18 hours ago, therunner said:

Additionally, Medallions are more limited compared to 'natural' powers.

Yes, we already saw that in BoM with translation medallions, which didn't seem to offer any other uses of Connection. This could likely be generalized to all feruchemical abilities, where different applications require storing in different metalminds. You'd need a different medallion for each. But F-Gold usage doesn't appear to have any diffentiation in it, so that may not necessarily be a problem.

Not to mention that the WoB question was about the feasibility of a spiked person retaining their power, while also imbuing a spike, not about just physically healing from spiking, but losing the power. Yes, there would be spiritual scars, but the whole thing could work along the same lines as organ donations do iRL. If you donate a kidney, you are not the same afterwards, but people still do it voluntarily.

Anyway, I am fairly convinced, given Kelsier's influence and extreme rarity of Metalborn in the South, as well as existential need of the same by society, that they must already employ hemalurgy in the ways proposed in the OP there since Catacendre.

The North will likely need to use it to jump-start their own medallion production too. There must be strictest accountability, though, and anybody caught with a spike of unknown provenance should be automatically convicted of murder.

therunner · May 28, 2023

30 minutes ago, Isilel said:

IIRC nothing in the books suggests that they can't. As long as they can pass around whatever means that lets them store unkeyed attribute, multiple people should be able to fill the same metalmind. In fact, that's pretty much the only way for medallion use to become common, as we have been led to expect will happen in era 3.

Not at the same time, that is the key constraint here.
Multiple can use Medallions yes, but not at the same time. One person, One Medallion.

30 minutes ago, Isilel said:

There is also a possible workaround for the lack of Twinborn compounding if they manage to figure out how to prime harmonium with health. It might be as simple as a Gold misting burning an unkeyed gold metalmind... or not.

That would be interesting.
Question is, would it be economical? But a smart work around nonetheless.

30 minutes ago, Isilel said:

However, the true revolution will come with something that was hinted to be eventually feasible in the future in TLM - wholly synthetic spikes charged with reprogrammed investiture that wouldn't have to come from people at all

Those would be interesting, if they will ever become viable.
Personally, I think that fully synthetic spikes will never become a thing, for two reasons

In-world: It goes against the Intent of the Shard associated with Hemalurgy. The means of accessing Invested Arts are typically linked to given Shards Intent (Bonds/Oaths for Surgebinding, Giving for Awakening, etc. ). Hemalurgy is tied with Ruin, hence to access it requires Ruin.
Out-world: Fully synthetic spikes would lead to gigantic power-creep, which is something Brandon is clearly avoiding (see restrictions of spikes and Compounding introduced in TLM).

Maybe you could hack it somehow together, but I think it would end up far less powerful.

30 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Yes, we already saw that in BoM with translation medallions, which didn't seem to offer any other uses of Connection. This could likely be generalized to all feruchemical abilities, where different applications require storing in different metalminds. You'd need a different medallion for each. But F-Gold usage doesn't appear to have any diffentiation in it, so that may not necessarily be a problem.

But as I mentioned, we see in SA that healing that does not come directly from the person is less powerful. Honorblades, Regrowth, all those are less powerful than natural healing of Surgebinders, and is explicitly not powerful enough to allow healing of spiritweb.

In Medallions, the source of healing is against external to the person, just like when using Honorblade, and so it stands to reason that Gold Medallion simply would not be capable of healing spiritweb damage.

30 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Not to mention that the WoB question was about the feasibility of a spiked person retaining their power, while also imbuing a spike, not about just physically healing from spiking, but losing the power. Yes, there would be spiritual scars, but the whole thing could work along the same lines as organ donations do iRL. If you donate a kidney, you are not the same afterwards, but people still do it voluntarily.

Sure, if all you want is to spike out power and give it someone else, then yeah, Medallion could keep them alive, but they would still be spiritually damaged like Drabs (but worse).

Donating a kidney won't diminish your quality of life in every single way, which is what surviving spiking apparently entails. Spiking survivor is in certain sense, less 'alive' then before.
Very few would volunteer to be depressed for rest of their life, to get ill more easily, to have their thinking compromised, etc.

30 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Anyway, I am fairly convinced, given Kelsier's influence and extreme rarity of Metalborn in the South, as well as existential need of the same by society, that they must already employ hemalurgy in the ways proposed in the OP there since Catacendre.

I don't think they are. They revere Metalborn, that speaks against, well, killing them for their powers.

Remember that spiking without killing was news even to Kelsier, so Southerns are certainly not practicing it.

Quote

The North will likely need to use it to jump-start their own medallion production too. There must be strictest accountability, though, and anybody caught with a spike of unknown provenance should be automatically convicted of murder.

Medallion production apparently does not necessarily require Hemalurgy though.

Edited May 28, 2023 by therunner

alder24 · May 28, 2023

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Anyway, I am fairly convinced, given Kelsier's influence and extreme rarity of Metalborn in the South, as well as existential need of the same by society, that they must already employ hemalurgy in the ways proposed in the OP there since Catacendre.

The North will likely need to use it to jump-start their own medallion production too.

I think it's possible that Malwish are already using Hemalurgy like that, there is this WoB which said that creating medallions using Hemalurgy is much easier than without it (but you can still make them without Hemalurgy). If not (as therunner pointed out Malwish worship Metalborns), the Basin could do that to quickly close the gap in tech.

Spoiler

Mojonero

Back before the Final Ascension, if you had a full Feruchemist and a Mistborn, both with access and knowledge of all 16 metals, could they make medallions without the use of Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

If they knew what to do maybe. Much easier with Hemalurgy - but it would be possible.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

Spoiler

Yata

If you have 32 Misting and Ferring, every kind possible, without using Hemalurgy, you can craft a medallion? Without the aftermath of the--

Brandon Sanderson

So could you craft a medallion... without-- oh. That should be possible, but this is one of the things where I have to dig out the notes and double-check myself. But this should be possible.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

Kasimir · May 28, 2023

On 5/27/2023 at 10:04 AM, AllomanticIron said:

-2. The newly discovered methods for taking a person's powers without killing them. The method used in TLM on the captives. Maybe a healthy person could consent to losing their powers, perhaps for a decent sum of cash?

I think #2 opens pretty much the "can we pay you to donate organs" bioethics/medical ethics can of worms, since I presume this still involves the loss of part of your spiritweb. This generally manifests in a debate about the extent to which this inherently penalises the worse off in society or even promotes a form of 'exploitation tourism', and the extent to which this is simply a regulatory problem and we could in principle have completely ethical donations.

(Put it this way: if you're living below the poverty line, and you're consenting to this process for the cash compensation, is this really informed consent in the full way we mean this? I think there's a decent argument for the fact that there's just something fundamentally ethically troubling about considering this an acceptable transaction when it's clear the donor's choices were pretty limited.

Edited to add: I suppose maybe the analogy is - we don't accept market forces as an excuse for factories with poor safety conditions. We do seem to believe there is some kind of ethical duty to minimise the harm to the worker. You can sort of do that here, but you're arguably paying the donor to accept a certain level of harm that is irreducible. Is that ever ethical? Well, I would argue one of the better ways to look at ethics is to ask if we'd accept that in analogous cases. The analogy with paid organ donation here is pretty compelling IMO.)

On 5/27/2023 at 10:04 AM, AllomanticIron said:

-1. Dying metalborn. Perhaps a misting/ ferring who is on the verge of death would be able to consent to having their powers taken (and being killed) via a hemalurgic spike. Kind of like how organ doning works today,

It's actually possible that not just metalborn but that they might make this compulsory for all who are dying and then just say, "You can opt out, and if you do, you won't be prioritised for any services that require the use of medallions." But this is again running off existing organ donation policy parallels.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Kasimir

Isilel · May 28, 2023

4 hours ago, therunner said:Not at the same time, that is the key constraint here.

A single person can't store 24/7 anyway - but passing a metalmind and means of storing unkeyed attribute in it around would allow for constant storing. So yes, it would be quicker to fill it, not to mention less unpleasant for people involved.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Out-world: Fully synthetic spikes would lead to gigantic power-creep, which is something Brandon is clearly avoiding (see restrictions of spikes and Compounding introduced in TLM).

Not sure how they would be more of a power-creep than what is already happening and is promised for the future with mechanization of powers, fully powered Elantrians rampaging across the cosmere, etc. They could be limited in interesting ways as well. And magical systems can be subverted from the Intents of Shards that created them.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Honorblades, Regrowth, all those are less powerful than natural healing of Surgebinders, and is explicitly not powerful enough to allow healing of spiritweb.

Regrowth can bring a messily dead person back to life, if applied soon enough. It is only if too much time has passed that it becomes notably less potent than internal healing powers. And there might be a middle ground between a person being able to regenerate a spiked-out power and becoming worse than a drab, where with application of enough gold healing, they just become normal, but with Spiritual scars. Like a kidney donation.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

I don't think they are. They revere Metalborn, that speaks against, well, killing them for their powers.

According to BoM, Metalborn had been unknown in the South prior to Kelsier's arrival there. Where and how they suddenly popped up from - particularly the Ferrings, is unknown. But Kelsier, who was certainly behind the ideas about convincing old and mortally ill Metalborn let themselves be spiked for the good of community in Spook's little black book, and whose stance on Hemalurgy we saw through his thoughts in TLM, was the author of Southern attitudes towards them and their traditions.

As such, I expect that SoScad Metalborn consider it their duty and honor to bequeath their abilities to the next generation at the end of their lives. This is likely a closely guarded secret among them. In fact, given the rarity and existential importance of Metalborn in that part of Scadrial, I don't see how it could work otherwise. They can't gamble on the powers they need to produce medallions naturally appearing in sufficient numbers in every generation.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Medallion production apparently does not necessarily require Hemalurgy though.

Sanderson is pretty unsure whether it is possible without it in the WoB concerning a bunch of Mistings and Ferrings. He is much more definite in the one with a Mistborn and a full Feruchemist. IMHO, jump-starting medallion production and creating initial tools for it in the absence of those, most likely requires Hemalurgy or some incredibly rare materials. Like, if you had a universal metalmind, where anyone can store and which anyone can tap, for instance. But after that initial phase, no further Hemalurgy may be required for continued production.

therunner · May 28, 2023

26 minutes ago, Isilel said:

A single person can't store 24/7 anyway - but passing a metalmind and means of storing unkeyed attribute in it around would allow for constant storing. So yes, it would be quicker to fill it, not to mention less unpleasant for people involved.

Yeah, it would let you let you get required Investiture about 3x times faster (8 hour shifts).
But that does not change the fact that the raw amount of Healing required is still on order of years, so you would still need to wait years before single Medallion could heal anyone with spiked out power (if even possible).

27 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Not sure how they would be more of a power-creep than what is already happening and is promised for the future with mechanization of powers, fully powered Elantrians rampaging across the cosmere, etc. They could be limited in interesting ways as well.

We don't see fully powered Elantrians rampaging across Cosmere, and they are restricted in different ways.

I think Hemalurgy will play important role in future, but not as something that is comodified.

Quote

And magical systems can be subverted from the Intents of Shards that created them.

Can they? Do we have some examples? Because I cannot think of any.

28 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Regrowth can bring a messily dead person back to life, if applied soon enough. It is only if too much time has passed that it becomes notably less potent than internal healing powers.

No, Regrowth is always less potent than internal healing (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/451/#e14448).

Even healing someone harmed with Hemalurgy might not be possible with Regrowth. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8579).

And Honorblades cannot heal soul (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e4788) and Medallions function in similar way to Honorblades in that they are both external tool that allows wielder to access Invested Art, and both have some Cognitive/Spiritual Aspect of their own (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e15930 and https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508/#e15901 )

So far all the evidence seems to be that external healing methods are strictly weaker than similar internal methods, and that using Invested power that is not native to your spiritweb means it is less potent, especially when it comes to healing.

Quote

And there might be a middle ground between a person being able to regenerate a spiked-out power and becoming worse than a drab, where with application of enough gold healing, they just become normal, but with Spiritual scars. Like a kidney donation.

I don't think that would be possible, since I don't think Medallion lets you heal spiritweb at all. It simply is not possible.
Healing only to extent of Spiritual scars would simply be result of not having enough Investiture, as other WoBs specify.

37 minutes ago, Isilel said:

According to BoM, Metalborn had been unknown in the South prior to Kelsier's arrival there. Where and how they suddenly popped up from - particularly the Ferrings, is unknown. But Kelsier, who was certainly behind the ideas about convincing old and mortally ill Metalborn let themselves be spiked for the good of community in Spook's little black book, and whose stance on Hemalurgy we saw through his thoughts in TLM, was the author of Southern attitudes towards them and their traditions.

No, they were there, just rare.
Otherwise there would be no one Kelsier could teach how to use powers.

And Kelsier got to South very shortly after Catecedre, so it is doubtful that by then Spook would have figured out Hemalurgy.

Isilel · May 28, 2023

1 hour ago, therunner said:

But that does not change the fact that the raw amount of Healing required is still on order of years, so you would still need to wait years before single Medallion could heal anyone with spiked out power (if even possible).

How do you know that it would be years rather than months? Though even a year or so might be worth it for the most crucial powers.

Quote

We don't see fully powered Elantrians rampaging across Cosmere, and they are restricted in different ways.

They looked pretty overpowered to me in "Tress" and restrictions were not necessarily obvious.

Re: your quotes about healing from Hemalurgy, they seem to be along the lines of "it would depend on many factors".

Quote

I don't think that would be possible, since I don't think Medallion lets you heal spiritweb at all. It simply is not possible.

I am not sure why a healing medallion couldn't be similar to a Regrowth fabrial - which, as seen in WoR/OB, not only returned a thoroughly smashed dead person back to life, but also completely healed their shardblade wound - which is a spiritual wound, as far as I understand.

Quote

No, they were there, just rare.
Otherwise there would be no one Kelsier could teach how to use powers.

Allik said in BoM:

"Taught us that the Metalborn were pieces of god, each of them, though we didn't have any of those at first..."

So, we don't really know. In particular, in the North nobody except for Terris has ever exhibited Feruchemy, so where did Southern Ferrings come from? Mistings, at least might have been the result of mist-snappings and we know that they tended to occasionally appear naturally too.

In any case, Kelsier was the one who molded attitudes towards and among the Metalborn in the South.

Quote

And Kelsier got to South very shortly after Catecedre, so it is doubtful that by then Spook would have figured out Hemalurgy.

Eh, how did Kel get himself a new body, do you think? That eye-spike isn't a fashion choice. And it wasn't just Spook figuring it out - according to "The Secret History" he was working under the direction of Kel, who got a lot of privileged information on the matter from his time as a Shard and spying on Ruin. His first instruction to Spook in the end was to gather all old Inquisitor spikes that he could get his hands on. Anyway, Kel came south about 10 years after Catacendre according to BoM chapter 21, so they did have some time to research.

We also know that Kel's priesthood in the temple, which seems to have numbered in the hundreds, commited suicide by cold, so his cult in the South was very much into self-sacrifice and hard choices, which fits with convincing dying Metalborn to submit to Hemalurgy as outlined in Spook's book.

Duxredux · May 28, 2023

Considering the ethics of using Hemalurgy when Medallion-tech is viable, I'm guessing Hemalurgy for power granting might end up only used for creating Medallions for Invested abilities foreign to Scadrial. There may be an attribute stealable by one or more of the Godmetals that makes Hemalurgy very attractive again, but we'll have to wait for those to be revealed.

My guess is that in the long run Hemalurgy will become a very dangerous weapon against Invested beings as the proper Intent can be triggered anywhere and Aluminum production becomes more well known across the Cosmere. In fact, I suspect Aluminum is the general answer to power creep. With the right knowledge, an Aluminum spike gun or Aluminum spear is one of the better Hazekiller weapons.

therunner · May 29, 2023

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

How do you know that it would be years rather than months? Though even a year or so might be worth it for the most crucial powers.

Because per WoB it would be a lot even for Compounder like Miles. Miles can get month worth of storing in days, if not in shorter time.
If it was months, Wayne could heal that, and Wayne is quite outside of Miles' league when it comes to healing potential.

So it should be years worth of storage, if not decades. If it is difficult for Compounder to get enough, it is nearly impossible for regular Ferring to pull off.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

They looked pretty overpowered to me in "Tress" and restrictions were not necessarily obvious.

Secret Project 1 spoilers

Spoiler

In Tress were their defenses were defeated by 18th century pirate crew and a girl that learned to manipulate wild Aethers in few months/weeks?
Not too dangerous.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Re: your quotes about healing from Hemalurgy, they seem to be along the lines of "it would depend on many factors".

Most are though quite certain it would take two things

Healing soul/spiritweb.
A lot of Investiture.

Medallions alone cannot provide 2), and I strongly dispute they allow 1) based on example of Honorblades, and every other example of external healing.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

I am not sure why a healing medallion couldn't be similar to a Regrowth fabrial - which, as seen in WoR/OB, not only returned a thoroughly smashed dead person back to life, but also completely healed their shardblade wound - which is a spiritual wound, as far as I understand.

That was retconned, so far Regrowth fabrial was never used to heal Shardblade wound.

Only things that were shown able to heal Shardblade wounds were innate Invested healing abilities, i.e. being Squire or Radiant or Fused.
Fabrials are not enough, Honorblades are not enough, external healing via Radiant is not enough.
I don't see any reason why Medallions should be different in this regard.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Allik said in BoM:

"Taught us that the Metalborn were pieces of god, each of them, though we didn't have any of those at first..."

So, we don't really know. In particular, in the North nobody except for Terris has ever exhibited Feruchemy, so where did Southern Ferrings come from? Mistings, at least might have been the result of mist-snappings and we know that they tended to occasionally appear naturally too.

No, we know per WoBs that Southerns were unmodified pre-Ascension population. So they had potential for Feruchemy, and also low potential for Allomancy.
It was weak enough that Full Feruchemists and Mistborn would not appear, but occasional Misting or Ferring would. And since Feruchemy used to be the more common of the two (prior to introduction of Lerasium Mistborn to gene pool), Southerns probably have more Ferrings then Mistings.

Quote

In any case, Kelsier was the one who molded attitudes towards and among the Metalborn in the South.

Yes, and we know they are being worshiped and revered, neither of which is suggestive of ritual murder.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Eh, how did Kel get himself a new body, do you think? That eye-spike isn't a fashion choice. And it wasn't just Spook figuring it out - according to "The Secret History" he was working under the direction of Kel, who got a lot of privileged information on the matter from his time as a Shard and spying on Ruin. His first instruction to Spook in the end was to gather all old Inquisitor spikes that he could get his hands on. Anyway, Kel came south about 10 years after Catacendre according to BoM chapter 21, so they did have some time to research.

Fair.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

We also know that Kel's priesthood in the temple, which seems to have numbered in the hundreds, commited suicide by cold, so his cult in the South was very much into self-sacrifice and hard choices, which fits with convincing dying Metalborn to submit to Hemalurgy as outlined in Spook's book.

We don't know how involved Kelsier was with that.
Notably, considering his outlook in TLM, why would he hide such a powerful artifact, instead of having him on hand for his Ghostbloods to use in emergency?
There are things around BoM that don't really make much sense, and while Kelsier was apparently involved in their creation (though more recent WoBs RAFO this), we don't know to what extent.

Edited May 29, 2023 by therunner

Isilel · May 29, 2023

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Because per WoB it would be a lot even for Compounder like Miles.

The WoB was about turning Miles into a spike factory, so not applicable to what I am talking about here.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

That was retconned, so far Regrowth fabrial was never used to heal Shardblade wound.

Even after the retcon there was still a shardblade wound to the arm, which was healed by a Regrowth fabrial along with bringing a thoroughly dead person back to life. And IMHO the gold medallions would be comparable to Regrowth fabrials, rather than to generic Honorblade healing.

I think that a certain Elantrian was terrifyingly powerful, but sloppy and cowardly.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

And since Feruchemy used to be the more common of the two (prior to introduction of Lerasium Mistborn to gene pool), Southerns probably have more Ferrings then Mistings.

In the North the Terris were the only people who had Feruchemy. And they likely had it because they lived around the Shardpools of both Ruin and Preservation. There were no Ferrings among any of the other peoples, so there is no reason why SoScads would have had them either, leave alone more commonly than mistings. But that's beside the point. The important thing is that Metalborn are very rare in the South and yet certain of their powers are completely essential for it's population's survival after Catacendre.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Yes, and we know they are being worshiped and revered, neither of which is suggestive of ritual murder.

Pretty sure that these things have been occasionally compatible iRL. But as I said, I think that it must be an internal tradition among the southern Metalborn, not something done to them by the worshipful populace.

I am quite frustrated that so many mysteries introduced in BoM remain completely unexplained so far, and particularly that we still know next to nothing about southern cultures and whatever was going on with the Bands. I do think that the ideas about societal management of Hemalurgy in Spook's book have been introduced for a reason. And I frankly don't see how the Southerners could have managed to create and maintain their magitech otherwise.

therunner · May 29, 2023

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

The WoB was about turning Miles into a spike factory, so not applicable to what I am talking about here.

The WoB was about Miles being able to heal spike damage, and the answer was that he would need a lot of investiture to do that, and if he did not have enough he would be left with scar on soul.

It is the most applicable statement we have.
We can also compare how much Stormlight Radiants consume to heal physical damage, and how much they consume to heal Spiritual damage. And they consume a lot more for Shardblade wounds.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Even after the retcon there was still a shardblade wound to the arm, which was healed by a Regrowth fabrial along with bringing a thoroughly dead person back to life.

Good point on healing the arm, all I can say is that perhaps healing deadly Shardblade wound (and so deadly Hemalurgy) is what is beyond Regrowth unless fast enough.
And he was not fully dead, his soul did not leave for Beyond, even Nale acknowledges that he was lucky to get there fast enough.

Quote

And IMHO the gold medallions would be comparable to Regrowth fabrials, rather than to generic Honorblade healing.

Why?
In Medallions seem to be closer to Honorblades, granting their wielder the ability to use Invested Art semi-directly.
Analogy being that what Honorblades are to Surgebinding, Medallions are to Ferrings/Mistings.
Fabrials would be more akin to Primer cubes I would say.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

I think that a certain Elantrian was terrifyingly powerful, but sloppy and cowardly.

Yeah, but where are any others? There is no hint of them in SoTD for example.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

In the North the Terris were the only people who had Feruchemy. And they likely had it because they lived around the Shardpools of both Ruin and Preservation. There were no Ferrings among any of the other peoples, so there is no reason why SoScads would have had them either, leave alone more commonly than mistings. But that's beside the point.

SoScads were placed there by Rashek as control so that he could undo the modifications he did to people when Ascended.
So it stands to reason he would have placed there 'examples' from various peoples, including his own.

And on top of that there is WoB that Southerns have seed of all Metallic arts in them. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6148)

Quote

The important thing is that Metalborn are very rare in the South and yet certain of their powers are completely essential for it's population's survival after Catacendre.

Yes, and creating Medallions is sufficient to ensure the powers are continually available.
Once you have Brass Medallions, you are set.

And to have enough Medallions for populace, they must be able to replicate powers somehow, otherwise you would never have enough Medallions (if one Medallion = One dead/powerless Ferring).

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

I am quite frustrated that so many mysteries introduced in BoM remain completely unexplained so far, and particularly that we still know next to nothing about southern cultures and whatever was going on with the Bands.

Well all of that is planned for Era 3, Era 2 was a 'side-story' so to speak.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

And I frankly don't see how the Southerners could have managed to create and maintain their magitech otherwise.

Well Hemalurgy is not the answer, for the simple reason of diminishing returns, and inability to replicate powers, only transfer them.

I suspect the answer will be some application of Nicrosil, Duralumin and Harmonium. And yes, perhaps some Hemalurgy to kickstart the process.

Edited May 29, 2023 by therunner

alder24 · May 29, 2023

18 hours ago, Isilel said:

According to BoM, Metalborn had been unknown in the South prior to Kelsier's arrival there. Where and how they suddenly popped up from - particularly the Ferrings, is unknown. But Kelsier, who was certainly behind the ideas about convincing old and mortally ill Metalborn let themselves be spiked for the good of community in Spook's little black book, and whose stance on Hemalurgy we saw through his thoughts in TLM, was the author of Southern attitudes towards them and their traditions.

As such, I expect that SoScad Metalborn consider it their duty and honor to bequeath their abilities to the next generation at the end of their lives. This is likely a closely guarded secret among them. In fact, given the rarity and existential importance of Metalborn in that part of Scadrial, I don't see how it could work otherwise. They can't gamble on the powers they need to produce medallions naturally appearing in sufficient numbers in every generation.

I like this explanation, it's logical and fits all known information. That's perfect.

14 hours ago, therunner said:

If it was months, Wayne could heal that, and Wayne is quite outside of Miles' league when it comes to healing potential.

Wayne still can heal a Shardblade wounds:

Spoiler

Questioner

If a Shardblade was put through Wayne's eye, would he able to use his ability to [heal the wound]?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he should be able to heal that.

Oathbringer Leeds signing (Dec. 1, 2017)

Spoiler

Questioner

So what would Wayne do with a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

Hehehe... He would have way too much fun.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

Spoiler

Kurkistan

Does a limb that has been "severed" by a Shardblade have any Hemalurgic bindpoints? If the same limb was then cut off more conventionally, would a Bloodmaker ferring be able to grow it back?

Brandon Sanderson

A severed Shardblade limb needs repair to the soul before it would function again. A Bloodmaker would be able to heal it without needing to grow it back.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 18, 2013)

14 hours ago, therunner said:

That was retconned, so far Regrowth fabrial was never used to heal Shardblade wound.

Retconned but it's still canon. Regrowth fabrial can still heal a death by a Shardblade:

Spoiler

BlackYeti

If you remember from the original version of Words of Radiance, Kaladin rammed a Shardblade through Szeth’s chest, after which Nale found Szeth and healed him with a fabrial. However in Edgedancer Lift tries to heal a girl who had also had a Shardblade rammed through her chest, and it didn’t work. Wyndle then explains that since she was killed by Shardblade, she cannot be healed at all, unless she is healed right after it happened. Since Nale was obviously not with Szeth and Kaladin to heal him immediately, this appears to be a contradiction.

Therefore, either Nale has some way to remotely heal someone (of which we have no evidence), "right after" is being used very loosely, or when Brandon changed the scene to have Szeth fall to his death instead, he also changed the rules governing what can or can’t be healed.

If so, what other rules could have been changed at the same time? Is there some additional significance to the change in wording from fabrial to Surgebinding for instance? Moreover this would be a somewhat significant precedent that Brandon is setting, and I’m not sure what to make of it.

Peter Ahlstrom

The way it worked in WoR's first draft is still canonical. There are subtle things that make the two situations different.

Miscellaneous 2016 (Nov. 22, 2016)

14 hours ago, therunner said:

I don't see any reason why Medallions should be different in this regard.

But I agree with you that medallions should work like Honorblades with healing - it's logical as similarities between them are pointed out by Brandon. However Brandon said sometimes "as it's understood by characters" meaning Honorblades true power might not have been reached yet, and it could allow for healing souls in proper circumstances. So maybe more advancements in medallion tech would overcome that limitation too?

14 hours ago, therunner said:

And since Feruchemy used to be the more common of the two (prior to introduction of Lerasium Mistborn to gene pool), Southerns probably have more Ferrings then Mistings.

The problem with that is that Feruchemy was ONLY showing up among Terris, and I highly doubt Rashek moved a few Terrisan there as well. Not to mention that Ferrings are the result of Allomantic genes breaking Feruchemical genes, without strong Allomancy, there should be no Ferrings at all.

6 hours ago, Isilel said:

I am quite frustrated that so many mysteries introduced in BoM remain completely unexplained so far, and particularly that we still know next to nothing about southern cultures and whatever was going on with the Bands.

What frustrated me the most is that Ranette went on the honeymoon there and we got NOTHING on that at all. She didn't even describe anything Malwish there...

therunner · May 29, 2023

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Wayne still can heal a Shardblade wounds:

Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

If a Shardblade was put through Wayne's eye, would he able to use his ability to [heal the wound]?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he should be able to heal that.

Oathbringer Leeds signing (Dec. 1, 2017)

Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

So what would Wayne do with a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

Hehehe... He would have way too much fun.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

Reveal hidden contents

Kurkistan

Does a limb that has been "severed" by a Shardblade have any Hemalurgic bindpoints? If the same limb was then cut off more conventionally, would a Bloodmaker ferring be able to grow it back?

Brandon Sanderson

A severed Shardblade limb needs repair to the soul before it would function again. A Bloodmaker would be able to heal it without needing to grow it back.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 18, 2013)

None of those specify how replicable it is.
Can Bloodmaker do it? Yes, the powers allows for it. Will they have enough stored to do so?

Since physical wounds seem to take less Investiture to heal than Spiritual ones, I think while Wayne could perhaps do it, he would do it once and deplete his entire metalmind.
Remember that a lot of the more extreme feats shown by him in Era 2 are when he either had time to build up stores, or when he gets his hands on very full unkeyed goldmind, not every day situations.

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Retconned but it's still canon. Regrowth fabrial can still heal a death by a Shardblade:

Reveal hidden contents

BlackYeti

If you remember from the original version of Words of Radiance, Kaladin rammed a Shardblade through Szeth’s chest, after which Nale found Szeth and healed him with a fabrial. However in Edgedancer Lift tries to heal a girl who had also had a Shardblade rammed through her chest, and it didn’t work. Wyndle then explains that since she was killed by Shardblade, she cannot be healed at all, unless she is healed right after it happened. Since Nale was obviously not with Szeth and Kaladin to heal him immediately, this appears to be a contradiction.

Therefore, either Nale has some way to remotely heal someone (of which we have no evidence), "right after" is being used very loosely, or when Brandon changed the scene to have Szeth fall to his death instead, he also changed the rules governing what can or can’t be healed.

If so, what other rules could have been changed at the same time? Is there some additional significance to the change in wording from fabrial to Surgebinding for instance? Moreover this would be a somewhat significant precedent that Brandon is setting, and I’m not sure what to make of it.

Peter Ahlstrom

The way it worked in WoR's first draft is still canonical. There are subtle things that make the two situations different.

Miscellaneous 2016 (Nov. 22, 2016)

Huh, TIL.
Though based on the WoB there is possibly something else going on too, since the two situations are 'different'. Still good to keep in mind.

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But I agree with you that medallions should work like Honorblades with healing - it's logical as similarities between them are pointed out by Brandon. However Brandon said sometimes "as it's understood by characters" meaning Honorblades true power might not have been reached yet, and it could allow for healing souls in proper circumstances. So maybe more advancements in medallion tech would overcome that limitation too?

I don't think Honorblades would ever allow spiritual healing, even when their nebulous true power is unlocked.
This WoB seems to suggest that the reason Honorblades don't heal is that the bond between Honorblade and wielder is 'shallow', compared to Radiant one.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

General Reddit 2017 (Sept. 8, 2017)

And since Duralumin is used in Medallions creation somehow, and Medallions have Identity of their own, I would wager that when using Medallion you also form a kind of bond with it.
Theoretically you could perhaps create specialized Medallions that would allow Spiritual healing, but it might be semi-permanent bond, so they would not be usable just by anyone.

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The problem with that is that Feruchemy was ONLY showing up among Terris, and I highly doubt Rashek moved a few Terrisan there as well. Not to mention that Ferrings are the result of Allomantic genes breaking Feruchemical genes, without strong Allomancy, there should be no Ferrings at all.

Why not? Rashek moved them there specifically to preserve original genetic information, so it stands to reason he would want to preserve Terris as well.
If he moved only those who he though were not Feruchemists (since he did not realize yet heredity of Feruchemy), there would be potential for Feruchemy in South. And since there would be weak potential for Allomancy as well, they would interfere together to produce Ferrings.

And perhaps there were Ferrings before Terris did whatever it was that granted them full Feruchemy, similar to what Lerasium did for Allomancy. After all, Terris had to have some motivation or idea that certain experimentation could yield Invested Art, otherwise it is quite odd.

It seems to me much more natural explanation that there were occasional Ferring in South even prior to Kelsier's coming, than that every single Southern Ferring is either produced through Hemalurgy, or offspring of someone who was, since we know that Hemalurgy has some consequences for reproduction.

alder24 · May 29, 2023

2 minutes ago, therunner said:

None of those specify how replicable it is.
Can Bloodmaker do it? Yes, the powers allows for it. Will they have enough stored to do so?

Since physical wounds seem to take less Investiture to heal than Spiritual ones, I think while Wayne could perhaps do it, he would do it once and deplete his entire metalmind.
Remember that a lot of the more extreme feats shown by him in Era 2 are when he either had time to build up stores, or when he gets his hands on very full unkeyed goldmind, not every day situations.

I think a regular Bloodmaker would need months worth of health to heal a Shardblade wound. Wayne needed like 2 weeks of health for 3 or 4 bullet wounds. In the case of Miles, the WoB was specifically about removing his invested powers and healing them back repeatedly, which would require huge amounts of health. Maybe a regular Bloodmaker would be able to heal back his power (Allomancy) if he had years worth of health, because in this case it's not a simple cut or hole in his soul, that's something more.

7 minutes ago, therunner said:

Though based on the WoB there is possibly something else going on too, since the two situations are 'different'. Still good to keep in mind.

Likely because a girl's soul was already gone, like Wyndle told Lift (I think he told her it's too late).

8 minutes ago, therunner said:

I don't think Honorblades would ever allow spiritual healing, even when their nebulous true power is unlocked.
This WoB seems to suggest that the reason Honorblades don't heal is that the bond between Honorblade and wielder is 'shallow', compared to Radiant one.

I think only a Herald bonded to Oathpact would be able to use his Honorblade to its true potential. Even Kalak in the prelude said "These Blades were weapons of power beyond even Shardblades. These were unique. Precious." and I doubt it's only about Oaths and Stormlight. Heralds can bond them in a way nobody else can, more "deeply".

Plus Szeth needed 10 heartbeats to summon his Honorblade, which shouldn't matter as that's only needed for dead Shardblades. That's because of his perception. It makes me think that Shins just don't know all of the possibilities Honorblades give.

Spoiler

macros

Based on what we know currently about ten heartbeats, why does Szeth require ten heartbeats to bring forth his Honorblade?

Brandon Sanderson

Perception is a very important part of how these things all work, and remember the Honorblades work differently from everything else. Everything was based upon them. Why don't you read and find out what's going on there, but remember that the characters's perception is very important.

macros

So then that's why at one point Shallan requires ten heartbeats and now she doesn't?

Brandon Sanderson

Right, it's the exact same reason that Kaladin's forehead wounds don't heal. Because he views himself as having those somewhere deep inside of him and he can't heal until that gets away. And it works for the same reason why in Warbreaker when you bring something to life, your intention rather than really what you say is what matters. It's all about perception.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

15 minutes ago, therunner said:

And since Duralumin is used in Medallions creation somehow, and Medallions have Identity of their own, I would wager that when using Medallion you also form a kind of bond with it.

Like I said, I like this explanation a lot.

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

Theoretically you could perhaps create specialized Medallions that would allow Spiritual healing, but it might be semi-permanent bond, so they would not be usable just by anyone.

That's a good idea. That could be an interesting way of progressing medallion tech.

Isilel · May 31, 2023

On 29.5.2023 at 0:34 PM, therunner said:

The WoB was about Miles being able to heal spike damage, and the answer was that he would need a lot of investiture to do that, and if he did not have enough he would be left with scar on soul.

With a scar where his power used to be, yes. But worse off than a normal unpowered Scadrian? I quoted the relevant portion of the WoB and Sanderson is clearly speaking about Miles being turned into a spike factory, rather than donating once, losing his allomancy, getting healed, and being OK afterwards:

"I see now, and I appreciate you putting this all together for me so I can see what the fans are trying to figure out. So the answer is a cautious yes. The problem here is that he'd need to compound a TON of healing first--but yes, it would work. You could theoretically turn someone like Miles into an invested spike factory.

If he didn't have enough healing stored, though, he'd end up with a healed soul but a gap (like a scar on his soul) where his spiked-out abilities were. "

I'd also point out that in TLM in the chapter where they spike people non-lethally, it is mentioned that they need 20-30 people to fully invest a spike. IMHO, it is a good ballpark figure for envisioning the amount of healing/investiture influx difference between healing someone to normal non-powered standard or maybe very slightly below that, but better than drab and turning somebody into a spike factory. The former appears to be pretty doable if you have multiple people storing health 24/7 in the same metalmind for months. Kelesina's goldmind from BoM might have done it, IMHO.

Quote

Good point on healing the arm, all I can say is that perhaps healing deadly Shardblade wound (and so deadly Hemalurgy) is what is beyond Regrowth unless fast enough.
And he was not fully dead, his soul did not leave for Beyond, even Nale acknowledges that he was lucky to get there fast enough.

Yes, but we are talking about gold-healing happening immediately/concurrently with spiking. Szeth's soul fully separated from his body, but was still in the Cognitive. I also fail to see why gold medallions wouldn't be similar to Re-Growth fabrials - both have healing Intent, whereas with Honorblades that don't have Regrowth, healing is an incidental by-product of being given ability to infuse stormlight. Re-Growth fabrials, being made from spren are also bound to have Identity, BTW. And we know that they can heal spiritual wounds, as can gold Feruchemy.

Quote

Yeah, but where are any others? There is no hint of them in SoTD for example.

So? Elantrians are so absurdly powerful that having any of them being able to operate so far from their world without losing their abilities is a massive power creep. Being able to create synthetic spikes of Metallic Arts won't move the needle much by comparison. And I do think that Metallic Arts are the only powers that could be eventually created and bestowed that way, because they are the simplest and most straightforward. The Set seemed pretty far along in that respect already in TLM and Moonlight brings up the idea of making victimless spikes using pure investiture for a reason, I imagine, or why even mention it? Or do you suggest that it was all just an elaborate red herring?

Quote

Yes, and creating Medallions is sufficient to ensure the powers are continually available.
Once you have Brass Medallions, you are set.

Not according to BoM, you aren't. At least not to Allik's knowledge.

"You can create these as you wish? If we have the Metalborn to do so and the Excisors, yes"

Quote

Well Hemalurgy is not the answer, for the simple reason of diminishing returns, and inability to replicate powers, only transfer them.

Transfering powers between generations allows for accumulating them and ensuring that you always have the powers you need, despite the randomness of people being born with them or not. Yes, powers become weaker with each transfer, but even weak powers can be very useful.

therunner · May 31, 2023

48 minutes ago, Isilel said:

With a scar where his power used to be, yes. But worse off than a normal unpowered Scadrian? I quoted the relevant portion of the WoB and Sanderson is clearly speaking about Miles being turned into a spike factory, rather than donating once, losing his allomancy, getting healed, and being OK afterwards:

Like I said, only examples of healing soul show that it uses more Investiture than Physical healing.
Hence healing spike wound, even to a scar state, would take considerable amount, months at minimum.

Quote

I'd also point out that in TLM in the chapter where they spike people non-lethally, it is mentioned that they need 20-30 people to fully invest a spike. IMHO, it is a good ballpark figure for envisioning the amount of healing/investiture influx difference between healing someone to normal non-powered standard or maybe very slightly below that, but better than drab and turning somebody into a spike factory. The former appears to be pretty doable if you have multiple people storing health 24/7 in the same metalmind for months.

Yes, and non-lethal spikes don't grant anything, not yet at least.
You cannot use it to steal powers even.

Those people would plausibly require less healing, however you also need more volunteers for spiking and figure out how to turn it into usable spikes.

Quote

Kelesina's goldmind from BoM might have done it, IMHO.

Maybe, for one person.

51 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Yes, but we are talking about gold-healing happening immediately/concurrently with spiking. Szeth's soul fully separated from his body, but was still in the Cognitive. I also fail to see why gold medallions wouldn't be similar to Re-Growth fabrials - both have healing Intent, whereas with Honorblades that don't have Regrowth, healing is an incidental by-product of being given ability to infuse stormlight. Re-Growth fabrials, being made from spren are also bound to have Identity, BTW. And we know that they can heal spiritual wounds, as can gold Feruchemy.

Because it is Honorblades and Medallions bestow their powers in the same way (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9408) , and Honorblades cannot heal souls.

Fabrials are completely different thing, they don't bestow power upon anyone, which is exactly why using them (e.g. Soulcasters) can be so dangerous.
Fabrials have analogy on Scadrial in primer cubes, not Medallions.

53 minutes ago, Isilel said:

So? Elantrians are so absurdly powerful that having any of them being able to operate so far from their world without losing their abilities is a massive power creep. Being able to create synthetic spikes of Metallic Arts won't move the needle much by comparison.

Elantrians are powerful if they have fuel continually supplied to them, without it, they are not much.

And power of spikes does not lie in creating synthetic Metallic arts, but in the fact that Hemalurgy can be used to manipulate spiritweb in ways e.g. Bondsmith or Forgery can.
Synthetic spikes would be insane power creep for any side that would know how to make them. You could hotwire your soul in basically any way, provided you had the knowledge.

Quote

And I do think that Metallic Arts are the only powers that could be eventually created and bestowed that way, because they are the simplest and most straightforward.

Why? Other Invested Arts are not anymore complicated.

Quote

The Set seemed pretty far along in that respect already in TLM and Moonlight brings up the idea of making victimless spikes using pure investiture for a reason, I imagine, or why even mention it? Or do you suggest that it was all just an elaborate red herring?

The Set, despite interrogating Marsh and so having access to all knowledge on Hemalurgy Spook had, were unable to make spikes created surviving victims work.

I do not think it was a red herring, more in-world speculation that is wrong. And if they will be able to create them, I suspect they will either be far weaker, or there will be some limitations to them. Sanderson's magic is all about limitations and restrictions, and he does retcon things to keep things in line (Compounding with spikes being the most prominent example).

So no, I don't think victimless spikes will be as simple as that line would suggest, if it will be even a thing.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Not according to BoM, you aren't. At least not to Allik's knowledge.

"You can create these as you wish? If we have the Metalborn to do so and the Excisors, yes"

Yeah, that does not contradict what I was saying though.

My point was, that Medallions are enough to ensure that powers are not lost once someone dies. If the Metalborn creates Medallion, that Medallion will continue to be available long after the Metalborn dies.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Transfering powers between generations allows for accumulating them and ensuring that you always have the powers you need, despite the randomness of people being born with them or not. Yes, powers become weaker with each transfer, but even weak powers can be very useful.

That won't help for mainting southerners Magitech though.

If Metalborn retains their power after creating Medallion, then they can create as many as they wish (barring material and time constraints). Passing the power down then becomes secondary.
Passing the powers would be useful yes, but not necessary.

Isilel · June 1, 2023

On 31 May 2023 at 6:12 PM, therunner said:

Hence healing spike wound, even to a scar state, would take considerable amount, months at minimum.

Well, we just have very little idea about how much it would take. But let's say a couple of months of 24/7 storing. Yes, ethically sourced spikes would be expensive. Still worth it for certain powers.

BTW, it occurs to me that if a Twinborn has one of their powers spiked out, they'd still be more invested than a normal Scadrian, so not in danger of being "worse off than a drab" and simple physical healing might suffice. They are, of course, extremely rare.

On 31 May 2023 at 6:12 PM, therunner said:

Those people would plausibly require less healing, however you also need more volunteers for spiking and figure out how to turn it into usable spikes.

There will be 50-70 years between Eras 2 and 3 - I'd expect either the Ghostbloods or the Set to have cracked this problem or even invented synthetic spikes by then, and the new protagonist discovering this to become one of the sub-plots.

Quote

Because it is Honorblades and Medallions bestow their powers in the same way (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9408) , and Honorblades cannot heal souls.

"Same principles, divergent applications" isn't "the same way" in my book. But that's beside the point - Honorblades which don't bestow the Surge of Regrowth only heal as a side-effect of letting the holder infuse stormlight. Those that do provide Regrowth are bound to be as capable of healing souls, if applied in a timely manner, as Regrowth fabrials are. A Gold Feruchemy medallion bestows healing. It is it's function and it's Intent, not just a nice bonus. Not really comparable.

There is also a big difference between primer cubes and fabrials in that primer cubes are just lumps of Harmony's investiture that copy and amplify whatever Metalic Art is directed at them*. Fabrials have set functions, determined by the spren involved and their construction. Just as the medallions are by the Feruchemy in their Nicrosil portion. Both require fuel to produce an effect, though medallions need a specific one - compatible stored attributes, while fabrials work on generic investiture.

*When the Set team tries to leave on a skyship at the end of BoM they mention one of their members priming machinery with Iron Feruchemy. So it isn't restricted to Allomancy.

On 31 May 2023 at 6:12 PM, therunner said:

Elantrians are powerful if they have fuel continually supplied to them,

If Moonlight as Elantrian wasn't getting fuel somehow, why did the Ghostbloods think that she might not revert on her own, once her investiture jar was used up? I didn't like it, but there it is. The need for Dor pipes seems to be over. The Sorceress didn't have any either. Speaking of power creep.

On 31 May 2023 at 6:12 PM, therunner said:

And power of spikes does not lie in creating synthetic Metallic arts, but in the fact that Hemalurgy can be used to manipulate spiritweb in ways e.g. Bondsmith or Forgery can.

Why not both? The idea of synthetic Metallic Arts has been specifically floated. And yes, of course other powers are much more complex, not to mention much less is known about hemalurgic uses of them in the first place.

For instance, Nahel bonds can be stolen, but the spren would be free to and certain to leave. The spren themselves can be spiked while in the Cognitive according to a WoB, but what would be spiked out of them is unknown. Not to mention that they shouldn't have binding points, the requisite metals are a mystery, binding points on a recipient are also unknown, etc. How do you even set out to synthetically copy something like that?

By contrast, a lot is already known about how Metallic arts work with Hemalurgy - most of it directly from Ruin himself back in the day. Rythms of Metallic Arts are known. It has been learned on Roshar how to blank investiture and overlay it with a different tone. Though I suspect that the Ghostbloods knew all this even prior to Navani's discoveries. What remains is to find blank investiture that would stick to a spike and figure out the proper "code" - maybe a hybrid rythm between Preservation and metal in question? Which the Ghostbloods would be in the best position to accomplish, having a sliver of Preservation among their ranks.

And the powers themselves are simple and straightforward - give a power to burn/store in a metal. The metal itself determines the effect. Nor are they, without compounding, overpowered. Which these spikes shouldn't allow either, of course.

And there surely are drawbacks to hemalurgic spikes, however sourced - susceptibility to the Shardic and similar influences, because they would still cause a hole in recepient's Spiritweb, the more powerful among other cosmeric abilities likely being incompatible - spren and Aethers not liking them, Elantrian healing rejecting them, having them impeding self-Forgery, etc. I am sure that Sanderson will come up with necessary limitations. But he did warn us that Scadrial is moving towards mechanized use of investiture.

On 31 May 2023 at 6:12 PM, therunner said:

The Set, despite interrogating Marsh and so having access to all knowledge on Hemalurgy Spook had

When did this happen? I must have missed it.

On 31 May 2023 at 6:12 PM, therunner said:

I do not think it was a red herring, more in-world speculation that is wrong.

Sorry, it doesn't make sense to randomly include something like that if it won't bear fruit in the later books, 50-70 years later Scadrian-time. Now, if it had been part of a plot-line devoted to somebody trying and failing to do this, then I could see it.

On 31 May 2023 at 6:12 PM, therunner said:

My point was, that Medallions are enough to ensure that powers are not lost once someone dies. If the Metalborn creates Medallion, that Medallion will continue to be available long after the Metalborn dies.

So? How are the powers not lost, given that the medallions are more limited? And that according to what Allik told Wax, you can't create new medallions using other medallions, but need a Metalborn? We don't know how quickly the medallions wear out either. Yes, I am aware of the WoB that they are "like Copper Feruchemy", but memories do pale with each retrieval. I also don't think that a single Metalborn can create a limitless amount of medallions. Time and effort needed _are_ real constraints. Not to mention that training and institutional knowledge may be required as well, and could be lost if too few of the rare, but necessary Metalborn appear in a given generation or 2.

On 31 May 2023 at 6:12 PM, therunner said:

Passing the powers would be useful yes, but not necessary.

Agree to disagree.

therunner · June 3, 2023

On 01/06/2023 at 8:56 PM, Isilel said:

Well, we just have very little idea about how much it would take. But let's say a couple of months of 24/7 storing. Yes, ethically sourced spikes would be expensive. Still worth it for certain powers.

Though, If you are not healing power back, all you are doing is transferring the (degraded) power to someone else.
And because they are expansive, only rich people can afford them.
Arguably that makes it ethically problematic (imagine what the world would look like if poor people had to sell parts of themselves to rich, loosing skills and abilities in process).

On 01/06/2023 at 8:56 PM, Isilel said:

BTW, it occurs to me that if a Twinborn has one of their powers spiked out, they'd still be more invested than a normal Scadrian, so not in danger of being "worse off than a drab" and simple physical healing might suffice. They are, of course, extremely rare.

Doubtful.
Problem with Hemalurgy is that you tear off piece of soul, quite violently in fact. In SA we see what happens when you do that forcibly and it is not a nice result (though it was for Cognitive Entities).

I don't think Twinborn would in any better shape than Ferring/Misting. I mean, there is no reason to think that Ferring is left better off than someone with no powers who 'just' gets attribute stolen.

On 01/06/2023 at 8:56 PM, Isilel said:

There will be 50-70 years between Eras 2 and 3 - I'd expect either the Ghostbloods or the Set to have cracked this problem or even invented synthetic spikes by then, and the new protagonist discovering this to become one of the sub-plots.

Ghostbloods have possibly had ~340 years or so to figure stuff out, they did not. They did not even manage to figure out that non-lethal spikes are possible (as far as we know).

And the Set are currently destroyed, with their research either destroyed or confiscated. They will have difficulty just getting back to original level.

Though I do expect to see more of Hemalurgy in Era 3, I just don't think that much progress will have been made.

On 01/06/2023 at 8:56 PM, Isilel said:

"Same principles, divergent applications" isn't "the same way" in my book. But that's beside the point - Honorblades which don't bestow the Surge of Regrowth only heal as a side-effect of letting the holder infuse stormlight. Those that do provide Regrowth are bound to be as capable of healing souls, if applied in a timely manner, as Regrowth fabrials are. A Gold Feruchemy medallion bestows healing. It is it's function and it's Intent, not just a nice bonus. Not really comparable.

'Same principle' is there the key to me.
And I would note that being infused with Stormlight is sufficient to heal spiritweb damage, if you are Knight Radiant, because the bond is deeper there. There is literally WoB on it and I quoted it before.

So yeah, how much is the power 'integrated' into soul, does play a role. So, F-Gold medallions which are 'mechanically' accessed power, that are confirmed to be in some cases more limited than 'natural' powers, could quite possible be limited in same way.

On 01/06/2023 at 8:56 PM, Isilel said:

There is also a big difference between primer cubes and fabrials in that primer cubes are just lumps of Harmony's investiture that copy and amplify whatever Metalic Art is directed at them*. Fabrials have set functions, determined by the spren involved and their construction. Just as the medallions are by the Feruchemy in their Nicrosil portion. Both require fuel to produce an effect, though medallions need a specific one - compatible stored attributes, while fabrials work on generic investiture.

I mean, they are quite similar.

Priming:
1. Cubes have to be primed by allomancy or feruchemy. Diffenet Misting/Ferring priming cube produces different effect.
2. Fabrials are primed by trapping particular spren. Different spren produce different effects.
Fuel:
1. Cubes require pure Investiture as fuel (Harmonium which burns and is slowly burned in process).
2. Fabrials require pure Investiture as fuel (Stormligh/Lifelight/Voidlight/whateverlight).
Construction:
1. Primer cubes require other parts outside of the Harmonium and priming user (seemingly some metallic contraptions and such, based on what we see in their airships).
2. Fabrials requires metallic cages to harness/modify their function.

Medallions on the other hand are far simpler, being basically 2-3 Metalminds in a trench coat. Yes their making is most likely somewhat complicated, but the complications are of very different kind than those in making of Fabrials/Cubes.

You can make fabrial without any powers yourself, presumably you could also Primer cube (as it seems to require Harmonium and just mechanical parts), but you cannot make Medallion unless you have Invested power.

On 01/06/2023 at 8:56 PM, Isilel said:

If Moonlight as Elantrian wasn't getting fuel somehow, why did the Ghostbloods think that she might not revert on her own, once her investiture jar was used up? I didn't like it, but there it is. The need for Dor pipes seems to be over. The Sorceress didn't have any either. Speaking of power creep.

It was a speculation on part of Ghostbloods and Moonlight, she never used it before and was aware there could be some risk. We don't know why she would not revert with time, much less how real the risk was.

The Sorceress could have bunch of Dor jars hidden nearby for all we know. But you do have a point there.

I suspect some form of limitation is still present even for Elantrians, simply because that is what Sanderson usually does with his magic systems. The more powerful they are, the more restrictive they are.

On 01/06/2023 at 8:56 PM, Isilel said:

By contrast, a lot is already known about how Metallic arts work with Hemalurgy - most of it directly from Ruin himself back in the day. Rythms of Metallic Arts are known.

Excuse me, but no. Most of knowledge of Hemalurgy comes from Ascension of TLR and now Kelsier. As far as we know, Ruin did not really share much information on it (outside of manipulating some people without their knowledge).
Any A-bronze Misting can hear Rhythms of Metallic Arts, they have no idea what they signify, nor any idea how to exploit it. Scadrial is a bit behind when it comes to Realmatics, they barely even know about CR and SR, much less anything else.

Quote

It has been learned on Roshar how to blank investiture and overlay it with a different tone. Though I suspect that the Ghostbloods knew all this even prior to Navani's discoveries.

Again, no.
Scadrial (and Ghostbloods) know quite little abou Realmatics. Kelsier cannot even get himself out of Scadrian system, and has to rely on spying/extorting Rosharans to figure it out for him

While blank Investiture might have been known before, I doubt Ghostbloods know/can make it, considering how they treat unkeyed Dor as basically a nuclear option. If they had easy way to get more, there is no reason to treat it as they do.

And since Dor itself is relatively 'easy' to get, unkeyed part is going to be the problem.

On 01/06/2023 at 8:56 PM, Isilel said:

And there surely are drawbacks to hemalurgic spikes, however sourced - susceptibility to the Shardic and similar influences, because they would still cause a hole in recepient's Spiritweb, the more powerful among other cosmeric abilities likely being incompatible - spren and Aethers not liking them, Elantrian healing rejecting them, having them impeding self-Forgery, etc. I am sure that Sanderson will come up with necessary limitations. But he did warn us that Scadrial is moving towards mechanized use of investiture.

Yes, mechanized use of Investiture, like what Southerners are doing with ships and stuff.
And even then, Scadrial is going to be 'Earth' analogue in future Eras, Roshar is the designated magi-tech civilization in Cosmere.
So then powers however accessed cannot distort things too much.

On 01/06/2023 at 8:56 PM, Isilel said:

When did this happen? I must have missed it.

WoB:

Spoiler

BTill232

Where and how did the Set learn about Hemalurgy initially? Hemalurgy did not seem to be common knowledge, at least to Wayne and Marasi when given the book by Marsh, but the Set seems to know all about it anyway.

Brandon Sanderson

So, yes, it was not common knowledge. There was some help from Autonomy on this, but it also involved the interrogation of somebody on-world that did not want to be interrogated.

And then a whole lot of experimentation. They had years to play with this. They didn't come right out of the gate knowing exactly how to do it.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

Quote

Sorry, it doesn't make sense to randomly include something like that if it won't bear fruit in the later books, 50-70 years later Scadrian-time. Now, if it had been part of a plot-line devoted to somebody trying and failing to do this, then I could see it.

You mean like how in Era 1 we had throw away line about how it ought to be possible for Allomancer to somehow burn metalminds, and that ended up basically working only in extreme edge cases (i.e. you happen to be born with the two powers, literally 1:16 000 000 chance, if not lower)?

So yeah, I would not be surprised if pure-Investiture spikes ended up a dud. Not every idea works out, especially when you are trying to discover or invent something.

Quote

Agree to disagree.

Fair enough.

Ethics of Hemalurgy in furure Mistborn eras

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