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Theory: Seons are the cognitive entities, and similar in nature to spren


Tortellini

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Hey guys, this one may be longer. This builds on several things that are already being discussed and I'll refer to those threads in here, but it actually combines a few ideas so it ended up not fitting into any of those alone...

This begins with Kaladin_Stormblessed (who according to Brandon is a very nice person that gives out excellent cookies :) ) interviewing Brandon and getting a reply about entities living mostly on the cognitive realm and are shadowed on the physical realm. There's a thread that speculates mostly that these are spren. I ended up asking Brandon about this at the signing in Manchester, since I had the notion that this sounded somewhat like spren, but much more like seons. My reasoning: Most spren are non-reasoning, and do not seem intelligent. Even Syl doesn't really think, she *knows*, and feels a lot. At the same time, seons are the epitomy of reasonably, and not emotional at all (e.g. they don't even mind being stuck in a box for ages).

So, I thought the hint Brandon gave was about seons, but still, it seemed like there could be something there about a connection to spren. Hence my question if seons and spren are basically the same thing, but with seons being primarily cognitive entities and spren being primarily spiritual entities. I did not get a definite yes from him, so this is speculation, but I thought his reaction indicated that I was definitely close to something, so I will just roll with this... :)

This leads me to actually quite a few branches of thought that branch into various areas of cosmere theory:

1. What we saw in Shadesmar are shadows of both spren and humans

Since humans are primarily physical beings, they should have shadow presences in both other realms. Since Shadesmar is the cognitive realm, there should be shadow presences of humans there, but in addition, since spren are primarily spiritual, they should also have a shadow in Shadesmar. It is my belief that the black spheres are the cognitive shadows of spren inhabiting objects or existing otherwise, based on the "discussion" Shallan had with what she calls the spirit of the goblet she soulcast. Here, she actually had a reasonable transaction with a spren, possibly because in Shadesmar she can better access it, getting the spren to "think". Since spren are not very cognitive, their cognitive shadow is pretty lame and dull. The flames seen in Shadesmar are then the cognitive shadows of humans. This is based on the idea that if entities exist in all three planes but on different degrees, then humans should have a pretty impressive cognitive shadow since they show more cognitive sides in the physical world than spren. The flames stand out, they are rare compared to the spheres of objects, and they sort of fit.

2. I know why you should not go to Shadesmar on Sel

If seons are primarily cognitive, with shadows on the physical side, then their "evil cousins" the skaze should be the same. That means that both are likely to be more capable and powerful in Shadesmar than humans, just as humans are more skilled at doing stuff in the physical realm. So on Sel, Shadesmar is full of the primary aspect of both seons and evil skaze, much more poweful and scary than any human in Shadesmar, and presumably, the skaze will be able to rip you into pieces if you give them a chance to get you on their home turf. So there you go, don't go to Shadesmar on Sel, ever. Nice, huh? (if Hoid and the 17th shard figured out how to avoid the skaze, or made deals to protect them, then that might explain how they can travel to Sel)

3. Seons may profit from or even need to be linked to a human

The ownership and passing on of seons is not much discussed in Elantris, but it seems that seons always have a human they are attached to. The effects of the Shaod show that if something is wrong with their human, the seons are affected, too. Therefore, something similar to the Nahel bond of sprens and humans may exist for seons as well. Syl draws energy and new skills and powers from the bond with Kaladin - she develops better cognitive skills, and possibly more physical skills as well. A bond between two entities may therefore help both sides gain new capabilities, especially in realms they are only shadows in. Maybe the seons also draw something from their humans - maybe they need a human "owner" to have a physical presence? And maybe they give their humans capabilities we haven't discovered yet? Something to speculate on for sure.

4a. Spren are splinters of honor

This is an either/or speculation - either 4a is on to something, or 4b. If you follow the idea that seons are splinters of Aona's shard, then since spren are basically very similar, they should be splinters of honor. This would confirm that honor is shattered - and give us something to expect in future worlds as an indicator whether a shard is splintered or not: Entities existing primarily in the non-physical realms abound. Note that apparently Endowment splintered her shard somewhat, but on purpose and not completely, so such creations can also be made on purpose. Which brings us to the alternative, 4b.

4b. Seons and spren are creations, just like humans

We know that the people of Scadrial were definitely created by Ruin and Preservation. From various interviews, there seems to be the indication that people on all the planets we saw were created by shards. If we see humans as shard-created entities inhabiting primarily the physical realm, then seons and spren could be an example of creations in other realms. Why would they be created? Who knows? Not a lot going for it, especially since Brandon once said that there were no seons before Odium visited Sel. Still, they could be a purposeful creation of Aona to defend against Odium (or bonus 4c. they could still be splinters, but created on purpose to prevent Odium from seizing her shard for himself. Very fishy though). In general, my money would be on 4a if you made me choose.

I am sure there are more implications to consider going from these points, but it's late here and other people on this board are even deeper in the cosmere theory, so I'd love to get their input on this as well. :)

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This all sort of makes sense, but what is your explanation for the sheer volume of spren (assuming 4a)? Seons (and presumably Skaze) are relatively rare, not unheard of obviously several nobles have them in Elantris but even more dont, even among the rich and powerful. Spren are everywhere. Literally everywhere, floating around on the wind, sitting in goblets... if they're splinters of honour he must have been huge to start off with, at least compared to Aona.

I think the sheer volume of spren forces us to believe they are some kind of natural created being, primarily spiritual for sure, but not splinters. However I dont think that neccesarily means that seons/skaze aren't, when compared to the average spren they are far more advanced and powerful entities, I like the idea of Aona and Skai splintering themselves to avoid Odium seizing their power, that makes a lot more sense to me than him splintering them for any reason as both intents fit well with his own, devoted hatred and dominion over those he hates would empower him a lot. Unless for some reason he couldnt take them which I've seen suggested somewhere, but that makes no sense when Sazed already has two shards that are more opposed than devotion and hatred.

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I actually believe there is a closer comparison between Kandra and Seon/Skaze. I think it is possible that the Seon/Skaze are the former Elantians and Dahkor that existed before Odium splintered the shards. This is a theory I have been working my head on. If correct then the Seons and Skaze would be people stuck. I find the Idea of Spern being related interesting but I think there are too many spern for that to be true out right. Ah also I think Odium destroyed Aona and Skai sense both Dominion and Devotion are pretty much forces that opposed to his ideals. Not to add power to his. I see Odium's goal as causing distrust and destruction of values.

Edited by Dakhor Savant
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Allright, this is what I think.

Seons and Skaze are Splinters, pieces of the power of Dominion and Devotion that are non-human (check the definition of a Splinter here). caused by the death of the Shards, propogated by Odium. Whether they did this voluntarily so that some of their power could be salvaged, or whether this caused their Splintering, or was a natural result of the Splintering, remains to be seen.

We tend to categorize Spren into a huge lump, like the people of Roshar do. I think this is false. I think there are normal Spren, caused by the death of Honor, and Nahel-Spren, Splinters created by Honor (and perhaps Cultivation).

I think when Honor died, naturally his power broke into little pieces (Chips? Flakes?) that became the spren that appear wherever the Stormlight touches. Why? Because we know during Dalinar's visions, Honor is around, (because he mentions the fall of the Knight Radiants, the most current of the visions), and he doesn't see Spren. I think that's because normal Spren aren't around till after Honor dies.

Now Nahel Spren. We know these exist before the death of Honor, because Nohaden mentions them. He talks about how the "Nahel Bond doesn't seem to make men any wiser", and mentions that "not all spren are as discerning as honorspren". (pg 849) I believe that these are purposeful Splinters of Honor (and Cultivation?) created so that men could fight the Desolations, eventually organized into the Knights Radiant.

EDIT- I was thinking, and perhaps there should be a name for what happened to Honor, who broke into an incredible number of small objects (Chips) instead of a quantifiable number of Splinters(like Seons). I think Shattering should work, compared to Splintering for Devotion.

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Allright, this is what I think.

Seons and Skaze are Splinters, pieces of the power of Dominion and Devotion that are non-human (check the definition of a Splinter here). caused by the death of the Shards, propogated by Odium. Whether they did this voluntarily so that some of their power could be salvaged, or whether this caused their Splintering, or was a natural result of the Splintering, remains to be seen.

We tend to categorize Spren into a huge lump, like the people of Roshar do. I think this is false. I think there are normal Spren, caused by the death of Honor, and Nahel-Spren, Splinters created by Honor (and perhaps Cultivation).

I think when Honor died, naturally his power broke into little pieces (Chips? Flakes?) that became the spren that appear wherever the Stormlight touches. Why? Because we know during Dalinar's visions, Honor is around, (because he mentions the fall of the Knight Radiants, the most current of the visions), and he doesn't see Spren. I think that's because normal Spren aren't around till after Honor dies.

Now Nahel Spren. We know these exist before the death of Honor, because Nohaden mentions them. He talks about how the "Nahel Bond doesn't seem to make men any wiser", and mentions that "not all spren are as discerning as honorspren". (pg 849) I believe that these are purposeful Splinters of Honor (and Cultivation?) created so that men could fight the Desolations, eventually organized into the Knights Radiant.

I agree 100 percent with this post.

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Just a crazy thought I had, what if Nahel spren arent any different to normal spren, we know Kalladin spent a long time thinking Syl was an ordinary windspren, what if Spren are all of honour like breath is of Endowment (in at least the vaguest sense) and different kinds of spren are all capable of being bonded/bonding and through that bond growing into a Nahal spren. ie after all syl still seems a lot like a windspren and when syl first started binding things together as pranks for Kalladin all they way back in Amarams army he wasnt surprised, he didnt think it was unusual so normal windspren must have some of the powers syl has, that could even be where the names of different orders of radiants came from, windrunners, had windspren and rode the high storms with them etc

Im not sure how that could apply to other orders of knights and kinds of spren but its an idea.

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