Odium on Sel

[WolfBro87]

So I hope this is the right place for this (rather then the Stormlight Archives or Elantris threads), but I was wondering, does anyone have any ideas what Odium might have done that was so horrible on Sel?  Is it something that happened before, during, or after the events of Elantris? 

The only thing that comes to mind when I think about it (though it has been a while since I've read the book, I'm planning on a reread soon) is perhaps Odium caused the great rift in the earth that prevented the magic of the Dor from working.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I have two theories on this.

1) The Reod, which you mentioned.

2) Somehow being involved it what would become the magics used by the Dakhor monks.

But the idea has been presented on TWG that what happened took place after Elantris, and involved the destruction of Sel entirely.  I doubt this, but it's still possible.

[Chaos]

I was under the impression that the Reod was naturally occurring.

I like to think that Odium went to Sel prior to the events of Elantris. This way, it explains how the Dor doesn't apparently have a consciousness attached to it (remember, its described as a force, and it seems to be very neutral). Of course, I really don't know. The letter (those Part 2 epigraphs) is mysterious in origin. We don't know exactly who's writing it (I suspect Hoid), who he's writing it to, or most importantly for this conversation, when it happened.

Though perhaps better evidence is in that list of Shards Brandon said we had seen, the one he posted in the Hero of Ages spoiler thread. He said:

You've interacted with two directly.

One is a tough call.  You've never met the Shard itself, but you've seen its power. 

The other one you have not met directly, but have seen its influence.

The two we've met directly would be Endowment and Aona. The third I believe would be Skai, for if you look at Elantris, you'll see a word derived from Skai, "skaze". It wouldn't be hard to think that, from that skaze reference (which Dilaf talks about, it can be implied Skai is where the Dakhor get their power. Even if I'm wrong about the placement there on that list, we know 100% that Skai exists on Sel. He belongs on the list.

So, as for the fourth spot, what Shard have we never met, seen, but we have seen its influence? Well, Odium, naturally. Since Odium went to Sel, it fits. And, because Brandon posted this before the Way of Kings, we can be reasonably certain that Odium had already gone to Sel by the time of Elantris.

At least, that's an argument that makes the most sense to me.

As for what Odium did... he killed Aona and Skai, which I should think is no easy feat. Since the epigraph-writer in part two of Way of Kings says Odium's visit was "brief", I imagine he did that feat and left quickly.

[Link Von Kelsier Harvey]

The letter (those Part 2 epigraphs) is mysterious in origin. We don't know exactly who's writing it (I suspect Hoid), who he's writing it to, or most importantly for this conversation, when it happened.

I kinda assumed that it must be Hoid, writing at roughly the same time as the events in the book.  He mentions specifically that folks from 17th Shard are chasing him, and we meet these people in one of the interludes.  Ishikk has been searching for five months during the book.  Even if it took them a little while to hire him once they got there, we're looking at a few months, max.  Who knows how long it took Hoid to notice he was being followed, and how long before he decided to write a letter.  That, and all the epigraphs in the book seem to have been recorded during or, at most, slightly before the book.  Anyway, in my brain at least, epigraph writer = Hoid writing contemporaneously with the rest of the book.

Back on topic though, Odium's killing of Aona and Skai seems to make sense.  I subscribe to this theory until someone presents a better one.

[Chaos]

I also subscribe to the idea that the epigraph author is Hoid. It makes too much sense for me to think otherwise.

[WolfBro87]

Okay, what Chaos is saying makes a lot of sense to me, but I just want to be clear about one thing.

You said Aona was one of the two Shards we've interacted with directly, and she was on Sel.  I'm assuming this means the general theory is she was the one attached to the Shard that is behind the Dor?  I had a thought she might have been when she was first mentioned in the epigraph (AonDor and Aona, seemed too coincidental to me, much like your Skai/skaze referense), but I didn't know that was generally agreed upon. 

Oh and Chaos, you said "we know 100% that Skai exists on Sel", was that in the epigraphs too or somewhere else?

And yeah, I completely agree that the author is Hoid, the whole people from the 17th Shard chasing him bit would have been far too big a coincidence.

[Chaos]

Yes, Skai is directly mentioned in the epigraphs, in relation to Sel.

One need only look at the aftermath of his brief visit to Sel to see proof of what I say.

In case you have turned a blind eye to that disaster, know that Aona and Skai are both dead, and that which they held has been Splintered. Presumably to prevent anyone from rising up to challenge Rayse.

So, Aona and Skai are both on Sel.

I certainly think Aona is related to AonDor, like you do, because that's way too coincidental, like atium and Ati. I don't see how anyone could say that she's not

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I'm of the opinion that the Dor is something that was created by the magic creating influence of all the Shards on Sel mixing together and the various systems, AonDor, ClayShan, the Dakhor monks, are derived from the direct influences of different Shards.  So I'm thinking AonDor was created by Aona, but other than that I'm not sure.

[Chaos]

That's an interesting way to put it. For certain, Aona is responsible for creating Aons as a focus for that power.

Perhaps it just became the Dor after Odium Splintered Aona and Skai, and what we are seeing as one unifying force has many different aspects.

[Elusive Fehler]

That's an interesting way to put it. For certain, Aona is responsible for creating Aons as a focus for that power.

Perhaps it just became the Dor after Odium Splintered Aona and Skai, and what we are seeing as one unifying force has many different aspects.

The word splintered here evokes an important image.  The Elantrians and their use of AonDor have always seemed like WAY more powerful then any of the other magic systems ie.  an Awakener or a Mistborn.  Is it possible that the Elantrians don't just tap into the Dor but are infused with splinters themselves of the Shard?

[Chaos]

That's an interesting way to put it. For certain, Aona is responsible for creating Aons as a focus for that power.

Perhaps it just became the Dor after Odium Splintered Aona and Skai, and what we are seeing as one unifying force has many different aspects.

The word splintered here evokes an important image.  The Elantrians and their use of AonDor have always seemed like WAY more powerful then any of the other magic systems ie.  an Awakener or a Mistborn.  Is it possible that the Elantrians don't just tap into the Dor but are infused with splinters themselves of the Shard?

Certainly, we don't know the Shaod works. This is quite possible.

[Aranfan]

I'm not sure if I should be putting this here, but it seems like a good place for it.

How do you think Rayse will react to Sazed? To someone who holds the power of two shards?  If he went and killed Aona and Skai and splintered their shards to prevent any threats to himself, I imagine that Saze would be number one on his hit list.

[Zas678]

Just to clarify, this is what Brandon has to say about Skaze: (from Elantris annotations)

"Oh, and if you caught the reference to the word 'Skaze,' then good for you. The Skaze are a group that will appear in the sequel, when and if I get around to writing it. They're pretty much evil Seons."

I think that the Dor might be the Power of Creation that Brandon talks about when explaining the power of allomancy.

"The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself.  Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them.  These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used.  It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak--though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly.  When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that--using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself--to fuel Allomancy.  Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body.  It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose.  That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive."

Maybe this "power of creation" is what the Dor is.

[Chaos]

Wouldn't the power of creation, more generally speaking, be the power of Adonalsium itself?

Also, I completely didn't know the Skaze were mentioned in an annotation. That makes me feel better about talking about it.

[mycoltbug]

That's an interesting way to put it. For certain, Aona is responsible for creating Aons as a focus for that power.

Perhaps it just became the Dor after Odium Splintered Aona and Skai, and what we are seeing as one unifying force has many different aspects.

The word splintered here evokes an important image.  The Elantrians and their use of AonDor have always seemed like WAY more powerful then any of the other magic systems ie.  an Awakener or a Mistborn.  Is it possible that the Elantrians don't just tap into the Dor but are infused with splinters themselves of the Shard?

I believe it is possible to use splinters but I would have to reference an unpublished book to back that theory. 

[Shivertongue]

Asked Brandon at the Chicago area signing tonight - Odium was, in fact, on Sel before the events of Elantris.

[Andrew the Great]

That's good to know, and goes a long way toward explaining the mindless energy of the Dor. I don't suppose he said how long before the events of Elantris?

The only real possible event we've seen that could've been Odium is the Reod. I personally think the Reod is natural, as Odium really has no reason to be concerned about a bunch of Elantrians coming after him. He'd only be worried about full Shards.

As such, the aftereffects of Odium's visit to Sel must just refer to the Death of the two Shards, methinks. Although it's certainly possible he caused the Reod, I don't see any reason for him to want to. Unless it was just like, "Hey, I killed you, so now I'm gonna take out all your magic system users for fun!"

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

Well, if the Elantrians happen to be Splinters, using Aona's power directly after her death, than Odium would probably have a reason to decimate them.

[Andrew the Great]

I don't know - we know that their power fades quite drastically the further they get from elantris, none of them have any method of moving to confront Odium directly that we know of (though there appear to be some planet hopping Elantrians, granted, I suspect that there are also planet hoppers from elsewhere (ie Hoid), so that really has nothing to do with being Elantrian. In fact, come to think of it, the planet hoppers from Sel weren't Elantrian. Hmmm..)

I also don't think that a whole bunch of people wielding Splinters of a Shard could take out an equally or more powerful shard. It would just be difficult to coordinate, and the Shard could just pick them off one by one.

Splinters of Several Shards....maybe. But it would require way more than would be feasible to gather in one place.

I can see where you're coming from, but even if the Elantrians are splinters, which I'm still not really sure how I feel about (although I think I'm leaning away from it, atm), they still don't pose much of a threat to Odium, imo.

[DataPath]

"Yes," Waren said, "but the collapse of the Jesker religion and the Duladen Republic are events that had been building for years, perhaps even centuries."

The Jeskeri are more important than is immediately obvious.  If you've read the chapters of Liar that Brandon has posted:

"Please," Midius said, laying a hand on Hoid's arm, trying to make him lay back in bed. The old jesk, however, shrugged off the touch and shot Midius a stern look.

The original Hoid was a Jesk.  I think Midius is actually the Hoid we see in Way of Kings:

"Many a thing, and only some of them polite. Almost all are true, unfortunately. You, however, you may call me Hoid."

"Your name?"

"No. The name of someone I should have loved. Once again, this is a thing I stole. It is something we thieves do."

I think Odium's visit to Sel resulted in the death of the Shardbearers, and the collapse of the Jeskeri "religion".

As for Sel-ites being able to challenge Odium, it might still be possible for someone to take up the power of the Shard, or maybe the spliters of the Shards; I'm not willing to write them off yet. 

[Munin]

The use of Jesk in Liar isn't a connection to Elantris. From this thread on TWG:

Ookla' date=' you have a very good point on Jesk/Hoid.  I should probably change jesk.  It's a left-over from Dragonsteel Prime, but right now it's kind of a distraction.[/quote']

[DataPath]

The use of Jesk in Liar isn't a connection to Elantris. From this thread on TWG:

Ookla' date=' you have a very good point on Jesk/Hoid.  I should probably change jesk.  It's a left-over from Dragonsteel Prime, but right now it's kind of a distraction.[/quote']

*sigh*. What a waste of a perfectly good theory.

[Deano Stormblessed]

I think the Odium visit to Sel resulted in the killing of the two Shards. The killing of Aona especially impacted heavily of Sel, causing the Reod. Definitely a new chasm forming in the land (on which the design of the Aon's is based) could be symbolic of the splintering of a shard. (shatter the shard results in shattering the land the shard is tied to). I think considering how closely the Aon's are based on the land, that Aona must be tied to the land.

New thought: What if when creating Sel, Aona put her physical form into the land, and that why when they draw runes, they have to base it on the land. Thus if Odium wanted to splinter Aona, he might have to do something drastic, like causing an earthquake to tear open the land?

[Chaos]

Maybe. I was under the assumption that Brandon said that the Reod was naturally occurring, and not magical in origin. Perhaps that's changed.

I'm really liking the idea that Aona put her power into the land, though. Maybe, maybe not, but it's a point which may reveal the nature of her Shard. Could it have something related to the land itself?

[Deano Stormblessed]

I think there is a definite relation between Aona and the land, but what it is exactly, I can only guess.