If Ranette Made Radiant Hazekiller Rounds

[cometaryorbit]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Harmonium is too soft, it would deform way too much.

I was thinking (with the original sodium rather than harmonium bullet) that the outer casing would be regular metal, but made to break open. That would also protect the alkali metal from humidity in the air.

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Incendiary shotgun rounds (Dragon's Breath style) to burn down Progression Growth plants, or Awakeners' organic items (Awakened ropes, cloaks, etc.).

Edited May 15, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[IlstrawberrySeed]

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I'm super curious to see whether Compounding a Nicrosilmind filled with Breath allows for Breaths to be generated. That would be really powerful, though I'm all but certain that there are some strings attached- I mean, just look at Hemalurgy's new limitations with Compounding and the number that someone can bear at any given time.

I personally think it's most likely going to elarge the size of the breaths, rather than produce more, which would definetly help, as it would mean 1 breath to 1 bullet, but it doesn't mean 1 breath infinite bullets.

 

Forger would be tough to make a bullet for - each forger has different stamps for protection. (Though a stamp bullet could be useful)

Elantrian, Dakhor, & Rithmatists (Non-cosmere) would just be aluminum hollow tip, though bullets won't help against chalklings.

Shades would be silver and/or aluminum, prefrerably rubber coated as not to hurt something on the other side. Alternitively, Raysdium with a container.

I can't think of any for aviar bearers beyond normal bullets. If needed, incendiary to burn the burds feathers, but its rare to need to take out the aviar itself.

Edited May 15, 2023 by IlstrawberrySeed

[therunner he/him]

17 hours ago, Voidwatcher said:

1. 4th Ideal Windrunner, 10 squires. These guys can fly about and can dodge really easily. Stay on the move, if you have Twinborn powers, use them to stay safe. Make sure not to lose interest though, fire a few shots with a less-useful gun at them occasionally to keep them focused on you. Eventually, stop and hold your ground. They'll have to come down to meet you. Dodge the Lashed projectiles accordingly if they send, waste their Stormlight and force them to come to fight you. Depending on how armed the Windrunner Squires are, and your own Invested powers, fight them. If they're super armed and you have none, charge in fast and shoot them on sight. Bloodmaker rounds for the Squires, make them count. The Windrunner will probably come in fast once you take down 3-4, maybe even after the first 1 or 2 if you're slow with it. Big Gun Slug to the Shardplate, swap back to Bloodmaker Rounds on the other gun for the Squires while the Windrunner is disoriented, then repeat. Change it up as much as you can- use a Bloodmaker Round on the Windrunner's Plate occasionally, so you don't have an identifiable pattern. Assuming you have the skill and enough bullets, you can take down the Squires one by one- just keep your distance and don't get overwhelmed if they attack you in a group. The Windrunner will retreat here- but if they charge you, just be ready for them to dodge your bullets and try to hit them as much as possible. Once they're down on the ground, cracked Plate/broken Plate, just unload your guns into them until they stop healing.

Against Windrunners the only usable bullets are either aluminum ones, or coated in thick layer of aluminum (i.e. aluminum ones ), since any other bullet/grenade/projectile will be drawn towards Reverse Lashing Windrunners can place anywhere.
One Windrunner of 4th Oath alone will slaughter anyone with just a gun (or even Wax with gun/grenade launcher), much less with 10 squires.

And if you don't have any powers yourself, even a lowly squire would likely kill you faster than you can kill them (they are faster, stronger, more agile, heal and that is not even talking about Surges).

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2. 4th Ideal Skybreaker, 10 squires- similar to what I originally said, but much easier. These guys only have Gravitation at best, so you can basically do something similar to the Windrunner strategy to get them off you. If you're good at keeping your distance from the Shardblades, then you can keep distance from the Division itself- just don't let them burn you.

Again, in Plate, Radiant with Gravitation will kill you faster than you can break Plate.
Even Wax could break plate with 1 shot only in ideal circumstances, most of the time taking 2-3 shots into the same section.  Accuracy into human sized target in combat scenario is even for trained folk around 40% only, so most of your shots will miss, much less hit the same location on body.

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4. 4th Ideal Edgedancer, 10 squires- staying out of range is VERY key here. Do not let them get close, otherwise, they might throw seeds at you and grow plants through you to pin you down. I'll assume the squires don't have this ability, so it's another case of Abrasion squires. Follow the Dustbringer method for the squires, but prioritize staying away from plants and keep eyes on the Edgedancer at all times, while keeping them away so they don't use Regrowth on the squires. Use their frictionless state against them, if you can.

Abrasion lets them turn any glancing hit into effectively a miss (the bullet would slide sideways a bit), but again, the dude in Plate will close distance before you can kill him.

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5. 4th Ideal Truthwatcher, 10 squires- you aren't going to face this guy in a straight fight. They're going to try and disorient you with Illumination and then the squires can kill you. Keep a good grip on reality, and don't trust anything. Fire bullets at random to see how they bounce, and what they hit- maybe use frag shots from the Big Gun. Stay away from walls, you don't know if there's a fake wall or not. Keep them as split up as possible, prevent the Truthwatcher's regrowth, stay away from illusions and you're all set.

You can't shoot what you cannot see, so the person in Plate can again get close faster than you can kill them (person in Plate is faster than a horse).
And they heal more powerfully than other Orders, making them far more difficult to kill.

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6. 4th Ideal Lightweaver, 10 squires- Again, another non-fight. Most likely they'll sneak up behind you and stab you while disguised- don't go around with other team members, even if that makes you paranoid. Test illusions to the best of your ability, and don't let them Soulcast you into anything. Prioritize staying agile and firing at things you don't trust. Once you find one of them, kill on sight- they aren't that strong as a Squire, and putting a few holes into Shardplate will make the other squires come out to fight you.

Again, can't shoot what you can't see, and they can blind you with bright enough Illusion and deafen you with loud sound.

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7. 4th Ideal Elsecaller, 10 squires- SEVERELY dangerous. At-range Soulcasting is terrifying. Snipe from a distance, spam frag shots around you- constantly keep an eye behind you. We don't know how Elsecalling fully works yet, but if it's raw teleportation, do not stop moving. I don't know what the squires would have access to, but assumably the same things. Mainly, just let somebody else handle these- I'd like to see if there's any good idea on how to prevent the Elsecallers from turning you to mush.

Yeah, guy with gun is dead. Elsecaller and squires jump over into CR, and then air around him into flame.

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8. 4th Ideal Willshaper, 10 squires- Watch for teleportation and sneak attacks, get used to the ground under you becoming mush, that'll throw off your aim. Assuming the Squires have the same abilities as the Willshaper, just hop around on your feet and stay as agile as possible- ground turn to mush? Run. Elsecall behind you? Run. Both times, fire behind you. Either they'll leave you alone, or die trying to kill you.

How will you run when ground turned into quick sand and then hardens once your legs sunk into it?
The moment they know where you are, you can no longer run, and they can just circle behind you and finish you off.
Or again, Radiant in Plate just runs you down.

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9. 4th Ideal Stoneward, 10 squires- Assumably, they have intense fighting capability and you won't be able to stand your ground against them- literally. Just try your best to get early shots before they get a good handle of the ground. Keep them as far away from you as possible with warning shots and Big Gun Slugs.

Stonewards can use Cohesion and Tension to turn their regular clothing into armor that would be on par with steel armor if not better. Not to mention shaping their surrounding.
They would most likely quickly make a small bunker, and then the one in Plate would come out and hunt down the shooter.

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10. 4th Ideal Bondsmith, 10 squores- No Shardblade, but a LOT of Stormlight. Rush in, guns blazing, kill that Bondsmith ASAP. No Shardblade to defend with, only Plate (maybe). Tension and Adhesion are still lethal if they get a good grip, so ALSO duck and dodge as fast as possible to stay safe. The quicker the kill, the sooner the Perpendicularity drops.

Bondsmith should probably just dip out, or if they have Plate, simply run then down. Shooter is slower, weaker and less dexterous, they won't be able to dodge.

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I'd like to hear your adjustments to these ideas, along with any retorts. I've been typing fast since my battery's almost dead, so I might not respond for a long time- sorry in advance! Have a good day, and I mostly skimmed through everything so sorry if I brought up a point that was already made, or if my dismissal of a Radiant's abilities was too hasty- I'm speedrunning this edit right now, in fact. 

I think you are severely underestimating just how tough Plate is, and just how deadly just someone with it is. Per WoB's plate would resist bullets well, and even Wax with Vindication and his powers would typically take multiple shots just to break a single section.
Radiants in Plate are faster (on par with sprinting horses), stronger (between 15-20x as human) and more agile (further improving Stormlight agility), they can withstand bullets, and even if you happen to break one section, that is just you destroying one piece of armor.
If the shooter does not have powers, they don't really stand a chance against someone in Plate.
And even if they do have powers, they most likely don't.

Add on 10 Squires, and most of these would be over incredibly fast. Without powers, shooter cannot stay out of range for more than a couple of seconds, and then it is game over, no Surges necessary.
With powers, unless those grant mobility it is really the same story. If the powers do grant some form of mobility, it can help them stay out of range, but 6/10 Orders also have Surges that help with mobility, so that leaves it open.
Best powers for shooter would be something that lets them move away fast, and lets them better aim. Probably F-zinc, F-Steel and maybe A-tin?

Edit:
@Trusk'our

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I'm super curious to see whether Compounding a Nicrosilmind filled with Breath allows for Breaths to be generated. That would be really powerful, though I'm all but certain that there are some strings attached- I mean, just look at Hemalurgy's new limitations with Compounding and the number that someone can bear at any given time.

I would say no. There is this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1710) that basically says you cannot create Investiture of another Shard with Investiture of different Shard. Since Compounding is Powered by Harmony/Preservation, and Breaths are gaseous Investiture of Endowment, it would not create them most likely.

Spoiler

Unfortunately, no. It's a good question, but no. That won't work for a couple of reasons. One of which is, simply creating Investiture is not something that can happen, right?

Djarskublar

They are a gold Twinborn, so they can tap a lot of gold...

Brandon Sanderson

They can tap a whole bunch, that's true, they can do that, but simply having it is not gonna create a spren because the spren is from a different god, right, a different Shard.

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by therunner

[Voidmaker he/him]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Against Windrunners the only usable bullets are either aluminum ones, or coated in thick layer of aluminum (i.e. aluminum ones ), since any other bullet/grenade/projectile will be drawn towards Reverse Lashing Windrunners can place anywhere.
One Windrunner of 4th Oath alone will slaughter anyone with just a gun (or even Wax with gun/grenade launcher), much less with 10 squires.

And if you don't have any powers yourself, even a lowly squire would likely kill you faster than you can kill them (they are faster, stronger, more agile, heal and that is not even talking about Surges).

Yes, aluminum is the only (except for the warning shot bullets- don't waste good aluminum on keeping them focused). I was going off the idea the 'Gun Guy' is Wax, so Steelpushes would increase mobility, and really screw up the Squires- since they don't have Shardblades they'll have regular metal weapons, and increasing your weight and then Pushing their blade will trip them up often. They'll adjust quickly, so again- fire fast, and stay nimble. Use Pushes to stay as far as you can.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Again, in Plate, Radiant with Gravitation will kill you faster than you can break Plate.
Even Wax could break plate with 1 shot only in ideal circumstances, most of the time taking 2-3 shots into the same section.  Accuracy into human sized target in combat scenario is even for trained folk around 40% only, so most of your shots will miss, much less hit the same location on body.

Yes, sorry for not clarifying off the front, but I'm assuming that based on this being 'Ranette's Plan' or something along those lines we'd have access to Wax's abilities. Any normal guy might get a shot or two off before getting gutted. Only somebody with SOME ability would be able to survive any of these scenarios, and that does not count gun ability.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Abrasion lets them turn any glancing hit into effectively a miss (the bullet would slide sideways a bit), but again, the dude in Plate will close distance before you can kill him.

I feel like this is more so a personal thing, but I don't think Abrasion could do that much, especially with Big Gun Slugs in mind. There might be a more specific WoB on this, I'd like to see it but I don't think ALL of the force should be discounted if it hit right. Also, again, assuming Wax's powers and a sufficient environment, you should be able to stay out of the way for long enough to weaken them over time.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

You can't shoot what you cannot see, so the person in Plate can again get close faster than you can kill them (person in Plate is faster than a horse).
And they heal more powerfully than other Orders, making them far more difficult to kill.

Assuming Wax's powers again, you should be able to stay out of reach. Wait for an opening, Push off the ground if you suspect it's been too long, get out of there. As long as you can bait them out and get enough shots to start breaking Plate, you can win. The slow game benefits you here, their Stormlight runs out eventually.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Again, can't shoot what you can't see, and they can blind you with bright enough Illusion and deafen you with loud sound.

Steelpush outta there! As soon as they start playing tricks, you can close your eyes and try to rely on limited Steelsight to make quick escapes, and if you time it right you might get a few surprise shots off on them when they're unprepared, but again, good luck with that. I really should've prefaced that we're using Wax's abilities here, as you are ENTIRELY correct with these- any regular human might land a strike or two on Plate or a Squire, but they won't survive any of this.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Yeah, guy with gun is dead. Elsecaller and squires jump over into CR, and then air around him into flame.

Yeah, Wax isn't surviving that. However, I am confused. Can you really Soulcast in the Cognitive Realm to effect something on the Physical Realm? That's a lot more dangerous than I thought.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

How will you run when ground turned into quick sand and then hardens once your legs sunk into it?
The moment they know where you are, you can no longer run, and they can just circle behind you and finish you off.
Or again, Radiant in Plate just runs you down.

This is where the context of Steelpushes becomes VERY necessary... but even then, if you keep jumping around everywhere, it'll be hard to land a shot but you might be able to escape. Still is basically certain death for anybody without magic.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Stonewards can use Cohesion and Tension to turn their regular clothing into armor that would be on par with steel armor if not better. Not to mention shaping their surrounding.
They would most likely quickly make a small bunker, and then the one in Plate would come out and hunt down the shooter.

Ooh, that's a cool idea I never thought of. Is that possible? Very nice. Again, Wax might be able to stay out of range of the range of any Cohesion-Tension shenanigans to fire off a couple rounds, but Stonewards will be very difficult to kill. Aim for the eyes on the stone-armor, and try to land as many hits as possible on the regular Shardplate. Maybe you can even Steelpush metal inside the armor (if there even IS any)?

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Bondsmith should probably just dip out, or if they have Plate, simply run then down. Shooter is slower, weaker and less dexterous, they won't be able to dodge.

Wax's Steelpushes become apparent here, too. Stay in the air, and you'll be fine, go in close if you can, and just fire as much as you can and land as many shots as possible.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

I think you are severely underestimating just how tough Plate is, and just how deadly just someone with it is. Per WoB's plate would resist bullets well, and even Wax with Vindication and his powers would typically take multiple shots just to break a single section.
Radiants in Plate are faster (on par with sprinting horses), stronger (between 15-20x as human) and more agile (further improving Stormlight agility), they can withstand bullets, and even if you happen to break one section, that is just you destroying one piece of armor.
If the shooter does not have powers, they don't really stand a chance against someone in Plate.
And even if they do have powers, they most likely don't.

Oh, I definitely was. I didn't realize the 15-20x, I thought it was more like 5-10x. I know about the bullet resisting thing, that's what the Big Gun Slugs are for, just hit them enough times to crack it and break it. I figured the agility thing, but I also thought Wax could Steelpush himself into the air to keep distance, or Steelpush away from Skybreakers/Windrunners.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Add on 10 Squires, and most of these would be over incredibly fast. Without powers, shooter cannot stay out of range for more than a couple of seconds, and then it is game over, no Surges necessary.
With powers, unless those grant mobility it is really the same story. If the powers do grant some form of mobility, it can help them stay out of range, but 6/10 Orders also have Surges that help with mobility, so that leaves it open.
Best powers for shooter would be something that lets them move away fast, and lets them better aim. Probably F-zinc, F-Steel and maybe A-tin?

Yup, good call with those. Thanks for responding! In my haste I forgot to clarify everything. However, that gives me another idea- what if instead of just inventing Hazekiller Bullets, we invent Hazekiller Misting/Ferring/Twinborn teams? Magical power is the only way to even slightly survive against a Radiant, but if we had multiple shooters with different toolsets and abilities (For example, how would a Leecher affect Stormlight on a Squire? F-Steel-A-Chromium, anybody?) But thanks for the improved data on Shardplate wearers, I thought they were strong but not THAT strong. (Also, does ANYBODY have any clue how to beat an Elsecaller team?????? Those are FAR too dangerous.) Thank you all! 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Voidwatcher
typo

[Duxredux he/him]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

I think you are severely underestimating just how tough Plate is, and just how deadly just someone with it is. Per WoB's plate would resist bullets well, and even Wax with Vindication and his powers would typically take multiple shots just to break a single section.
Radiants in Plate are faster (on par with sprinting horses), stronger (between 15-20x as human) and more agile (further improving Stormlight agility), they can withstand bullets, and even if you happen to break one section, that is just you destroying one piece of armor.

I think you are overstating the ability of Plate, and we're talking a handcannon, not Vindication. To use video game terminology, Plate doesn't eliminate knock-back; hit a Shardbearer hard enough and they will get thrown around. Kaladin's flying kick during Adolin's duel not only cracked the backplate, but also the connecting sections with the added bonus of knocking the Shardbearer to the ground. I don't remember the Big Gun specs, but the handcannon from BoM used rounds as big around as a man's wrist and that gun had enough kick to cripple a man's hand if they fired it without properly being braced. Add in whatever armor piercing properties that Ranette would come up with. I'd guess that a Shardbearer could run through bullets as easily as they do arrows, but I wouldn't dismiss small cannon fire. The WoB uses Vindication as an example, and I'm guessing something like a Pewterarm round with Wax Pushing the bullet to get the one shot break. I think these rounds should do plenty of damage and at least stagger any Shardbearer that gets hit with a round. This isn't to say it's a fair fight, it definitely isn't, but I don't think it would be a trivial matter for a Radiant to fight this loadout.

Word of advice for anyone considering fighting an 11 on 1 fight, get some allies that can carry guns.

[therunner he/him]

30 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

I was going off the idea the 'Gun Guy' is Wax, so Steelpushes would increase mobility,

Ah That does a lot to be honest.
Still though, against Windrunner/Skybreaker of 4th Oath, Wax won't be able to run away fast enough, or break Plate fast enough. Gravitation is superior to even Steel+Iron + F-Iron, much less to just two powers Wax has.

And also, Windrunner Squires would be able to mess with his anchors, so against Windrunner he would fare quite badly, as even Squires have powers that hinder his usual M.O. quite hard (unstable anchors, only aluminum bullets usable).

Against, other orders he would fare better, though I would say that Elsecallers, Willshapers and Stonewards in Plate would most likely beat him as well (Elsecaller through Soulcasting anchors away and/or through simply attacking from CR, Willshaper and Stoneward could remove his anchors or make them unstable through Stoneshaping.

Lightweavers and Truthwatchers lacks an option in catching him easily, however Illusions would seriously mess Wax's ability to anything. A bit difficult to aim or move when things around you are Illusions, and closing your eyes to navigate via Steellines leaves him completely open to attack by Radiant in Plate, who is Invisible to Steelsight.

Edgedancers and Dustbringers would probably have the greatest difficulty, though Abrasion could let them catch up and mess up non-fixed anchors (like dropped bullets Wax likes to use).

And finally, Bondsmith should dip out, they have little in ways of catching up to Wax.

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Yeah, Wax isn't surviving that. However, I am confused. Can you really Soulcast in the Cognitive Realm to effect something on the Physical Realm? That's a lot more dangerous than I thought.

Yep you can, and apparently it can be easier to do too.
Elsecaller (or even Lightweaver) could stand around in CR, and pick up (draw to themselves) representation of objects they want to change and do that.

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Ooh, that's a cool idea I never thought of. Is that possible? Very nice. Again, Wax might be able to stay out of range of the range of any Cohesion-Tension shenanigans to fire off a couple rounds, but Stonewards will be very difficult to kill. Aim for the eyes on the stone-armor, and try to land as many hits as possible on the regular Shardplate. Maybe you can even Steelpush metal inside the armor (if there even IS any)?

Should be, Cohesion lets them reshape objects as they desire, and Tension can be used to manipulate stiffness. Since Stonewards were the typical foot-soldiers of Radiants, even more so than Windrunners, it makes sense for them to use their powers to create good offensive and defensive tools.

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Yup, good call with those. Thanks for responding! In my haste I forgot to clarify everything. However, that gives me another idea- what if instead of just inventing Hazekiller Bullets, we invent Hazekiller Misting/Ferring/Twinborn teams? Magical power is the only way to even slightly survive against a Radiant, but if we had multiple shooters with different toolsets and abilities (For example, how would a Leecher affect Stormlight on a Squire? F-Steel-A-Chromium, anybody?) But thanks for the improved data on Shardplate wearers, I thought they were strong but not THAT strong. (Also, does ANYBODY have any clue how to beat an Elsecaller team?????? Those are FAR too dangerous.) Thank you all! 

Interesting idea, but quite close to vs. threads
F-steel and A-Chromium would be a good call, though they could use the Steel only sporadically.

Edit: @Duxredux

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I think you are overstating the ability of Plate, and we're talking a handcannon, not Vindication.

In that case, even Wax will have difficulty getting through Plate (or, will use more of his own F-Iron stores to strengthen shots).
Vindication is basically .500 revolver, and those are the largest handgun you can get.

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To use video game terminology, Plate doesn't eliminate knock-back; hit a Shardbearer hard enough and they will get thrown around. Kaladin's flying kick during Adolin's duel not only cracked the backplate, but also the connecting sections with the added bonus of knocking the Shardbearer to the ground.

Plate weights around ~400 kg, bullet hits will do very little in terms of knockback. Purely from momentum conversation, even if the bullet is moving at 1000 m/s (which it isn't), the person in Plate would start moving only at ~0.1 m/s, assuming 40 gram bullet!  So even assuming unrealistically high speeds and unrealistically heavy ammo, it only barely staggers the Plate. Realistic numbers for weight of ammo are 4 grams, and speed of bullet is more like 400 m/s, so the speed after collision would be ~0.005 m/s, i.e. Plate would barely budge.

Kaladin is faar heavier than a bullet, like ~1500x times And was lashed at multiples of gravitation, so his force was considerable.

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I don't remember the Big Gun specs, but the handcannon from BoM used rounds as big around as a man's wrist and that gun had enough kick to cripple a man's hand if they fired it without properly being braced.

Even such a gun won't generate appreciable knock-back on someone in Plate.

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Add in whatever armor piercing properties that Ranette would come up with. I'd guess that a Shardbearer could run through bullets as easily as they do arrows, but I wouldn't dismiss small cannon fire.

Well, SoTD 2 spoilers

Spoiler

Shardplate will remain in use into Era 4, so it is most likely more than enough even against small cannon fire.
Or it will somehow get upgrades.

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The WoB uses Vindication as an example, and I'm guessing something like a Pewterarm round with Wax Pushing the bullet to get the one shot break. This isn't to say it's a fair fight, it definitely isn't, but I don't think it would be a trivial matter for a Radiant to fight this loadout.

I doubt that. The WoB states right bullet, right time and right shot. So even for Wax, it would not be easy task, and everything would have to go right for him to break Plate in one shot.
For all we know, it would require to Push on the bullet right before it hits, and to also tap multiple tons of weight to strengthen that hit.

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I think these rounds should do plenty of damage and at least stagger any Shardbearer that gets hit with a round.

Only way Shardbearer staggers after getting hit with bullet is if Wax is actively Pushing on the bullet as it hits and is tapping enough F-Iron to be much heavier than the Plate.
But Wax can do that only a few times in fight, before draining his metalminds.
 

Edited May 16, 2023 by therunner

[Voidmaker he/him]

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

Ah That does a lot to be honest.
Still though, against Windrunner/Skybreaker of 4th Oath, Wax won't be able to run away fast enough, or break Plate fast enough. Gravitation is superior to even Steel+Iron + F-Iron, much less to just two powers Wax has.

And also, Windrunner Squires would be able to mess with his anchors, so against Windrunner he would fare quite badly, as even Squires have powers that hinder his usual M.O. quite hard (unstable anchors, only aluminum bullets usable).

Depends on where they're fighting, to be honest. In the middle of a forest? Hard to fly for all parties. In an open plain? Severe disadvantage for Wax. In Elendel? A lot more anchors for the Windrunners to have to sabotage. Can steelsight go through solid objects or does it have to be a direct LOS? I forget.

4 minutes ago, therunner said:

Lightweavers and Truthwatchers lacks an option in catching him easily, however Illusions would seriously mess Wax's ability to anything. A bit difficult to aim or move when things around you are Illusions, and closing your eyes to navigate via Steellines leaves him completely open to attack by Radiant in Plate, who is Invisible to Steelsight.

I didn't mean completely fight only with Steelsight, but if you get blinded or feel you can't trust your surroundings, use Steelsight to find an anchor and GET OUT OF THERE. The sooner you can get away to recover your senses, the better. (Also, unrelated, but imagine Rosharans playing Prop Hunt but with Lightweavers. Just use a whacking stick and go around searching. Sounds like fun!)

9 minutes ago, therunner said:

Edgedancers and Dustbringers would probably have the greatest difficulty, though Abrasion could let them catch up and mess up non-fixed anchors (like dropped bullets Wax likes to use).

Depends on the location of natural anchors as well, but they will very much tamper with his anchors if he's the one slapping them down. 

11 minutes ago, therunner said:

And finally, Bondsmith should dip out, they have little in ways of catching up to Wax.

That's fair. I feel like if you're getting to a Bondsmith, you've gone through all the other Radiants first, anyways... and I think that's pretty difficult to do.

7 minutes ago, therunner said:

Yep you can, and apparently it can be easier to do too.
Elsecaller (or even Lightweaver) could stand around in CR, and pick up (draw to themselves) representation of objects they want to change and do that.

Those were in the beads, though, right? Is air stored in the beads too? Even then, turn the floor below him to fire and it should have a similar effect.

13 minutes ago, therunner said:

Should be, Cohesion lets them reshape objects as they desire, and Tension can be used to manipulate stiffness. Since Stonewards were the typical foot-soldiers of Radiants, even more so than Windrunners, it makes sense for them to use their powers to create good offensive and defensive tools

Wonder if any Stoneward just tore a giant stone battle axe out of the ground once. That'd be crazy. Can Cohesion create sharpened material? If so, I desperately need more Stoneward scenes in these books, Brandon!!!! 

[therunner he/him]

Just now, Voidwatcher said:

Depends on where they're fighting, to be honest. In the middle of a forest? Hard to fly for all parties. In an open plain? Severe disadvantage for Wax. In Elendel? A lot more anchors for the Windrunners to have to sabotage.

In basically all terrain Windrunners have advantage in flight, they can move in any direction they want, with any acceleration they want. You simply cannot beat that.
They don't really have to sabotage the anchors, if they can easily catch him via superior speed and maneuverability.

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Can steelsight go through solid objects or does it have to be a direct LOS? I forget.

It can only if the solid object is relatively thin. It probably depends on density of material. But you cannot see through e.g. brick walls.

2 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

I didn't mean completely fight only with Steelsight, but if you get blinded or feel you can't trust your surroundings, use Steelsight to find an anchor and GET OUT OF THERE. The sooner you can get away to recover your senses, the better.

But if you cannot see, you don't know where the anchor will get you, that is a lot of risk. Remember that Steel will push you away from anchor, and you don't know what is there without regular sight.
You might jump right into Squire or Radiant.

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(Also, unrelated, but imagine Rosharans playing Prop Hunt but with Lightweavers. Just use a whacking stick and go around searching. Sounds like fun!)

That would be so fun

3 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

Depends on the location of natural anchors as well, but they will very much tamper with his anchors if he's the one slapping them down.

Yep yep.

5 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

That's fair. I feel like if you're getting to a Bondsmith, you've gone through all the other Radiants first, anyways... and I think that's pretty difficult to do.

Yeah most likely

5 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

Those were in the beads, though, right? Is air stored in the beads too? Even then, turn the floor below him to fire and it should have a similar effect.

Most likely yes, though probably air in different locations is different beads. It would be interesting to know how it works.

6 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

Wonder if any Stoneward just tore a giant stone battle axe out of the ground once. That'd be crazy. Can Cohesion create sharpened material? If so, I desperately need more Stoneward scenes in these books, Brandon!!!! 

That would be awesome
Stonewards will be focus in the second half of SA, so it will be quite a while.

BTW, one another thing that helps Radiants, Shardblades can cut Steellines Though since they cannot see them, it would be just pure luck.

[Frustration he/him]

23 hours ago, Voidwatcher said:

1. 4th Ideal Windrunner, 10 squires. These guys can fly about and can dodge really easily. Stay on the move, if you have Twinborn powers, use them to stay safe. Make sure not to lose interest though, fire a few shots with a less-useful gun at them occasionally to keep them focused on you. Eventually, stop and hold your ground. They'll have to come down to meet you. Dodge the Lashed projectiles accordingly if they send, waste their Stormlight and force them to come to fight you. Depending on how armed the Windrunner Squires are, and your own Invested powers, fight them. If they're super armed and you have none, charge in fast and shoot them on sight. Bloodmaker rounds for the Squires, make them count. The Windrunner will probably come in fast once you take down 3-4, maybe even after the first 1 or 2 if you're slow with it. Big Gun Slug to the Shardplate, swap back to Bloodmaker Rounds on the other gun for the Squires while the Windrunner is disoriented, then repeat. Change it up as much as you can- use a Bloodmaker Round on the Windrunner's Plate occasionally, so you don't have an identifiable pattern. Assuming you have the skill and enough bullets, you can take down the Squires one by one- just keep your distance and don't get overwhelmed if they attack you in a group. The Windrunner will retreat here- but if they charge you, just be ready for them to dodge your bullets and try to hit them as much as possible. Once they're down on the ground, cracked Plate/broken Plate, just unload your guns into them until they stop healing.

Forget the squires the fourth ideal WIndrunner on their own wins, pretty much regardless of who has the gun, they just have their windspren fly over to the shooter and open up a vacuum around them, causing them to die as their blood boils and bursts through their skin.

Honestly the only people that can last for more than a fraction of a second against a fourth ideal WIndrunner are other Radiants, gold compounders, and maybe Zephyr Aetherbound.

[Voidmaker he/him]

1 minute ago, therunner said:

In basically all terrain Windrunners have advantage in flight, they can move in any direction they want, with any acceleration they want. You simply cannot beat that.
They don't really have to sabotage the anchors, if they can easily catch him via superior speed and maneuverability.

I wonder how that would work in tight settings, though. What happens if two Windrunners collide mid-air? Could Wax duck into an alleyway to force them to group up?

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

It can only if the solid object is relatively thin. It probably depends on density of material. But you cannot see through e.g. brick walls.

But if you cannot see, you don't know where the anchor will get you, that is a lot of risk. Remember that Steel will push you away from anchor, and you don't know what is there without regular sight.
You might jump right into Squire or Radiant.

Got it- only limited density materials. Also, I was assuming that Wax would just memorize his environment beforehand so he could predict things- unless they move in the way of his flight path. I do wonder how long Illumination-based blindness last. Could permanent blindness be done?

4 minutes ago, therunner said:

Most likely yes, though probably air in different locations is different beads. It would be interesting to know how it works.

Yeah. I guess if all objects are shrunked down to fit in the beads, the reason there's still such a large ocean of them is because the majority might be made of air.

7 minutes ago, therunner said:

BTW, one another thing that helps Radiants, Shardblades can cut Steellines Though since they cannot see them, it would be just pure luck.

We don't know how permanent that is, though. Worse comes to worse, just pop out another casing to fly off of. Still would get annoying and limiting, so thanks for reminding me.

[therunner he/him]

5 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

I wonder how that would work in tight settings, though. What happens if two Windrunners collide mid-air? Could Wax duck into an alleyway to force them to group up?

 Well, they hurt Doubt it would happen though, they are trained to fight and are used to fighting in groups. They know to not get in their way (or should).

But even in tight setting, they can brake just as easily as they accelerate, the sole limitation is how much acceleration can they take, and they are improved and healed by Stormlight, so they can take more than Wax can. (And don't let me get started on how it does not make sense Gravitation causes G-forces ).

7 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

Got it- only limited density materials. Also, I was assuming that Wax would just memorize his environment beforehand so he could predict things- unless they move in the way of his flight path.

I am sorry, but Wax does not have that good a memory, or nothing suggests that he does

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I do wonder how long Illumination-based blindness last. Could permanent blindness be done?

I assumed only Illusions around him, he can still see, just what he sees is not what is around actually.

But since they can possibly create lasers, they could permanently blind him via strong enough light source/Illusion.

9 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

Yeah. I guess if all objects are shrunked down to fit in the beads, the reason there's still such a large ocean of them is because the majority might be made of air.

Well, it is not that objects are shrunk down to fit in beads, the beads are just representation of the objects. Sentient souls are represented by flames for example.

10 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

We don't know how permanent that is, though. Worse comes to worse, just pop out another casing to fly off of. Still would get annoying and limiting, so thanks for reminding me.

I assume the Connection could be re-established if the Coinhost stopped burning and then started again. Good old, turn it off and on again method

[Voidmaker he/him]

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

I am sorry, but Wax does not have that good a memory, or nothing suggests that he does

I can't tell if this is just a small joke at his age or not, but it's the kind of thing where I'd imagine he'd see an anchor and a clear way up, he'd note it down in his mind, then when the illusions become intense he can close his eyes to guide himself to the anchor (opening occasionally) and then just Pushing himself up and away when he gets a chance, to escape.

4 minutes ago, therunner said:

Well, it is not that objects are shrunk down to fit in beads, the beads are just representation of the objects. Sentient souls are represented by flames for example.

Makes sense. Still, the reason that the bead ocean is equal to land height is that the representation of air is supporting it all, is my guess. The representation of items in the beads are physically much smaller, so there's gotta be something in the bead ocean to support it all to make it equal land-level.

7 minutes ago, therunner said:

I assume the Connection could be re-established if the Coinhost stopped burning and then started again. Good old, turn it off and on again method

Ah, the good ol' Coinhost  (emphasis mine). Makes sense. Thanks!

[Frustration he/him]

12 minutes ago, therunner said:

I assume the Connection could be re-established if the Coinhost stopped burning and then started again. Good old, turn it off and on again method

"Harmony, why aren't my powers working?"

"Have you tried turning them off then on again?"

[therunner he/him]

12 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

I can't tell if this is just a small joke at his age or not, but it's the kind of thing where I'd imagine he'd see an anchor and a clear way up, he'd note it down in his mind, then when the illusions become intense he can close his eyes to guide himself to the anchor (opening occasionally) and then just Pushing himself up and away when he gets a chance, to escape.

I don't see that working personally.  He does not have Steelsight like Inquisitors do, he could only see the steel-lines, and since their strenght changes with distance, I simply don't see how he could navigate himself to one particular piece of metal, especially when assaulted by Illusions whenever he opens his eyes.

14 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

Makes sense. Still, the reason that the bead ocean is equal to land height is that the representation of air is supporting it all, is my guess. The representation of items in the beads are physically much smaller, so there's gotta be something in the bead ocean to support it all to make it equal land-level.

Yeah, it that is true. Depends also on what cause object to have distinct representations.

15 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

Ah, the good ol' Coinhost  (emphasis mine). Makes sense. Thanks!

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

"Harmony, why aren't my powers working?"

"Have you tried turning them off then on again?"

[Voidmaker he/him]

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

"Harmony, why aren't my powers working?"

"Have you tried turning them off then on again?"

Customer/Tech Support is how Harmony loses it and turns into Discord. We've solved it. We're all brilliant! 

[therunner he/him]

6 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

Customer/Tech Support is how Harmony loses it and turns into Discord. We've solved it. We're all brilliant! 

Ah, that is understandable, and indeed only possible outcome of being forced into magi-tech support position

Imagine those conversations:
"But did you have proper Intent when using the fabrial?"
"No, I was thinking about something else, as my son-in-law was talking to me."
"Well, try to really focus on the Intent as described in the User Manual"

[Voidmaker he/him]

Just now, therunner said:

Ah, that is understandable, and indeed only possible outcome of being forced into magi-tech support position

Imagine those conversations:
"But did you have proper Intent when using the fabrial?"
"No, I was thinking about something else, as my son-in-law was talking to me."
"Well, try to really focus on the Intent as described in the User Manual"

Imagine if that conversation happened with Nightblood.

"Help, this sword's talking to me!" ?
"What magic did you use?" Harmony
"Breaths. I'm on Nalthis." ?
"Have you tried taking the Breaths out of it?" Harmony
*dying from whoever's wearing the earring*
"Did they just hang up on me? I don't get paid enough for this." Harmony