Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 I don't want to pile on or take away from the koloss army vs 3 radiants thread but I really liked the idea of more numbers in the vs battles.  I want to propose another squad level battle or two. #1: Elend and 50 of his atium users vs 3rd ideal Kal with 50 squires. #2: Marsh in HoA and 1000 koloss vs Vasher w/nightblood and 100 kalads phantoms. As far as resources go I would say that each side will have sufficient to fight for about an hour. 1
alder24 Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 17 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: #1: Elend and 50 of his atium users vs 3rd ideal Kal with 50 squires. How much Atium are we talking about? The same amount that they have in HoA? Elend wins if Windrunners engage them in melee, future sight is too strong. If Windrunners just stay high in the air, they can periodically shoot rock into them and slowly wait for them to burn away their Atium. That's the only way for them to win but Windrunners need to know about Atium to do so. But then give Elend's army bows with arrows and they might score all hits on squires - in OB they don't carry shields with them to reverse lash projectails. 21 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: #2: Marsh in HoA and 1000 koloss vs Vasher w/nightblood and 100 kalads phantoms. That's interesting. Vasher can fight against Marsh (if he doesn't have Atium), Vasher would be a far better sword fighter than Marsh and he can use Awakened cloak (with wooden plank sewed into it) to catch steelpushed coins, that fight would be interesting. And Vasher alone would just rampage through Koloss with Nightblood. Every Koloss that gets too close to Vasher fighting Marsh would get Nightblooded, and Marsh would have a hard time controlling them and keeping them away, as Koloss in rage are notoriously hard to control. Kalad's Phantoms are made out of stones, I don't know if even Koloss have the strength necessary to break stone (maybe the biggest one could do that - it depends again on proper estimation of Koloss strength, so opinions might vary) - and I don't think Marsh has any way to fight against a single Phantom - he would need to duralumin pushed a big piece of metal into a phantom to break it, but he doesn't have 100 vials and a huge piece of metal with him to do so. I give this one to Vasher and his Phantoms. 32 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: As far as resources go I would say that each side will have sufficient to fight for about an hour. If Windrunners decide to stay high in the air and wait Elend down, do they still have an hour of Stormlight for just 0.5g lashing upwards? In that case Elend wins as he has all other metals to fight with, and Windrunners have no light to reverse lash his coins.
Frustration Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 9 minutes ago, alder24 said: How much Atium are we talking about? The same amount that they have in HoA? Elend wins if Windrunners engage them in melee, future sight is too strong. If Windrunners just stay high in the air, they can periodically shoot rock into them and slowly wait for them to burn away their Atium. That's the only way for them to win but Windrunners need to know about Atium to do so. But then give Elend's army bows with arrows and they might score all hits on squires - in OBÂ they don't carry shields with them to reverse lash projectails. The Seers in HoA didn't have bows, and don't underestimate the power of full lashings, as seen in the chasm scenes Windrunners can throw them, if Kal and the others can establish a parimeter they can slowly draw the full lashings in until the seers are all trapped, and unable to move. Elend is the only one who could escape and shardblades can cut his steel lines. 10 minutes ago, alder24 said: That's interesting. Vasher can fight against Marsh (if he doesn't have Atium), Vasher would be a far better sword fighter than Marsh As a returned Vasher has soma latent fortune, it would be intresting to see how those interact, and he's definately skilled enough to overcome atium.
therunner he/him Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 (edited) 40 minutes ago, alder24 said: How much Atium are we talking about? The same amount that they have in HoA? Elend wins if Windrunners engage them in melee, future sight is too strong. If Windrunners just stay high in the air, they can periodically shoot rock into them and slowly wait for them to burn away their Atium. That's the only way for them to win but Windrunners need to know about Atium to do so. But then give Elend's army bows with arrows and they might score all hits on squires - in OBÂ they don't carry shields with them to reverse lash projectails. If Windrunners can't have shields (and lets face it, with reverse lashing, nearly anything can serve as shield, since you don't have to maintain contact), I don't see why seers get bows. The only danger is Elend, Seer vs Windrunner squire goes to squire easily (spray full lashing around Seer, close in to immobilize them, then use Reverse Lashings to pull them apart or simply shoot them full of rocks), and Elend's ranged offense can be entirely eliminated via Reverse Lashing, and Kaladin has range advantage in melee. I think Elend would get overwhelmed, since his Seers would fall sooner. Edit: Also typical advantage of Seer is not so strong against someone with Healing, who can simply tank a killing blown to land killing blow on Seer. Seer's are completely physically inferior to Squire, who is stronger, faster, more nimble, do not tire, and heal their wounds. 1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: #2: Marsh in HoAÂ and 1000 koloss vs Vasher w/nightblood and 100 kalads phantoms. So does Vasher have enough Breath to keep Nightblood drawn for an hour? Because that is absolutely obscene amount of Breath, Nightblood draws exponentially more the longer he is drawn, and we have never seen him drawn for longer than few minutes at a time at most. If he does, then Vasher alone could probably kill all of that army, if not, good tactic would be to throw down Nightblood and let it do its thing, Koloss would slaughter each other with it, and Vasher is free to use all of his Breahts and Phantoms to fight Marsh. Edited May 10, 2023 by therunner
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted May 10, 2023 Author Posted May 10, 2023 29 minutes ago, Frustration said: The Seers in HoA didn't have bows, and don't underestimate the power of full lashings, as seen in the chasm scenes Windrunners can throw them, if Kal and the others can establish a parimeter they can slowly draw the full lashings in until the seers are all trapped, and unable to move. Elend is the only one who could escape and shardblades can cut his steel lines. As a returned Vasher has soma latent fortune, it would be intresting to see how those interact, and he's definately skilled enough to overcome atium. I am genuinely curious about steel lines being cut. What does that mean? If mistborn is burning steel actively and the shardblade passes through a steel line then that mistborn can't see that steel anymore?  Can't the mistborn simply pulse the use of the steel? Are the lines a new connection as the steel user first burns their metal or is the shardblade cutting connections that are there already but unseen until the mistborn burns the metal? I feel like shards could just be waved around Garen spin to win style and suddenly the mistborn has 2 useless abilities if it worked that way.  I do think that shards likely interupt the steel lines of anything that is directly behind the shardblade... almost a line of sight type of deal more than effectively neutering 2 whole metals. Even if they sever that current connection pulsing the metal should be enough to remake those connections in real time and can be performed on a second by second basis as all metals are toggleable.  41 minutes ago, alder24 said: How much Atium are we talking about? The same amount that they have in HoA? Elend wins if Windrunners engage them in melee, future sight is too strong. If Windrunners just stay high in the air, they can periodically shoot rock into them and slowly wait for them to burn away their Atium. That's the only way for them to win but Windrunners need to know about Atium to do so. But then give Elend's army bows with arrows and they might score all hits on squires - in OB they don't carry shields with them to reverse lash projectails. That's interesting. Vasher can fight against Marsh (if he doesn't have Atium), Vasher would be a far better sword fighter than Marsh and he can use Awakened cloak (with wooden plank sewed into it) to catch steelpushed coins, that fight would be interesting. And Vasher alone would just rampage through Koloss with Nightblood. Every Koloss that gets too close to Vasher fighting Marsh would get Nightblooded, and Marsh would have a hard time controlling them and keeping them away, as Koloss in rage are notoriously hard to control. Kalad's Phantoms are made out of stones, I don't know if even Koloss have the strength necessary to break stone (maybe the biggest one could do that - it depends again on proper estimation of Koloss strength, so opinions might vary) - and I don't think Marsh has any way to fight against a single Phantom - he would need to duralumin pushed a big piece of metal into a phantom to break it, but he doesn't have 100 vials and a huge piece of metal with him to do so. I give this one to Vasher and his Phantoms. If Windrunners decide to stay high in the air and wait Elend down, do they still have an hour of Stormlight for just 0.5g lashing upwards? In that case Elend wins as he has all other metals to fight with, and Windrunners have no light to reverse lash his coins. I am not sure about atium burn time. In my mind metals are toggleable which makes them the better choice in a fight vs stormlight which leaks more. I know that stormlight can be returned to spheres but is that beyond what squires can do?  I think the balance comes down to the idea that they have to meet eachother in close quarters combat eventually. Hovering around out of range would be a poor option because elend would likely cut them all down eventually. I think the question is... how much stormlight will be wasted per attack needed to heal through before they run out and can't heal anymore. I imagine there is a magical ratio that says one side wins vs the other. An hour of each probably would go to the atium side. But could toggleable 10 minutes of atium each allow them to land the needed hits to win the battle vs squires with an hour worth of full lashings or would the stormlight get used up too fast healing through future sight attacks?   What about Vasher and his 100 phantoms vs Amaran and his army as seen in OB?  Marsh and his 1000 koloss vs Amaran and his army?  Elend and 200 seers with an hour of constant atium vs Amaran and his army? How many seers would be needed at the least do make it happen?  Basically I am reading the battle for Thaylen fields and am curious what other armies from other books would have needed in that moment.  What if a portal opened and 40,000 lifeless army from warbreaker came through with their 4 Returned with passcodes each with 3 or 4 priests at the 4th heightening?  3 minutes ago, therunner said: If Windrunners can't have shields (and lets face it, with reverse lashing, nearly anything can serve as shield, since you don't have to maintain contact), I don't see why seers get bows. The only danger is Elend, Seer vs Windrunner squire goes to squire easily (spray full lashing around Seer, close in to immobilize them, then use Reverse Lashings to pull them apart or simply shoot them full of rocks), and Elend's ranged offense can be entirely eliminated via Reverse Lashing, and Kaladin has range advantage in melee. I think Elend would get overwhelmed, since his Seers would fall sooner. So does Vasher have enough Breath to keep Nightblood drawn for an hour? Because that is absolutely obscene amount of Breath, Nightblood draws exponentially more the longer he is drawn, and we have never seen him drawn for longer than few minutes at a time at most. If he does, then Vasher alone could probably kill all of that army, if not, good tactic would be to throw down Nightblood and let it do its thing, Koloss would slaughter each other with it, and Vasher is free to use all of his Breahts and Phantoms to fight Marsh. I would say Vashers Nightblood tactic would work in all situations. In fact I think if Vasher has held Nightblood in the battle for Thaylen fields he may have been able to plant it in front of Amarans army and allowed them to destroy themselves solo... good tactic and potentially the winner of all of these... Nightblood alone.   1
Frustration Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I am genuinely curious about steel lines being cut. What does that mean? If mistborn is burning steel actively and the shardblade passes through a steel line then that mistborn can't see that steel anymore?  Can't the mistborn simply pulse the use of the steel? Are the lines a new connection as the steel user first burns their metal or is the shardblade cutting connections that are there already but unseen until the mistborn burns the metal? I feel like shards could just be waved around Garen spin to win style and suddenly the mistborn has 2 useless abilities if it worked that way.  I do think that shards likely interupt the steel lines of anything that is directly behind the shardblade... almost a line of sight type of deal more than effectively neutering 2 whole metals. Even if they sever that current connection pulsing the metal should be enough to remake those connections in real time and can be performed on a second by second basis as all metals are toggleable. You can cut steel lines with shardblades. Spoiler Oneyespike (paraphrased) Can a Shardblade interrupt iron or steel lines? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) *after mulling it over a bit, he was very interested in this question* "It would be theoretically possible, because steel lines manifest themselves on the Spiritual Realm. Also, there are other things that can cut/interfere with steel lines." Shadows of Self Denver signing (Oct. 6, 2015) Not sure what it means, but even if it could be redone, the shock factor alone cannot be underestimated.
therunner he/him Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I think the question is... how much stormlight will be wasted per attack needed to heal through before they run out and can't heal anymore. I imagine there is a magical ratio that says one side wins vs the other. An hour of each probably would go to the atium side. But could toggleable 10 minutes of atium each allow them to land the needed hits to win the battle vs squires with an hour worth of full lashings or would the stormlight get used up too fast healing through future sight attacks? Thing is, Squire does not have to fight Seer in close quarters, they can immobilize them first with Full lashings, and then cut their legs (which cannot move) and let them bleed out. Hour worth of Stormlight would be more then enough for this tactic. Alternatively, they can use Reverse Lashing on Seer to impale them on Squires' weapon (hold out weapon in front of you, use Reverse Lashing to pull Seer onto it), since Seer cannot see their own Future, and Atium sight would only show Squire standing there with weapon out. Edit:  Quote What about Vasher and his 100 phantoms vs Amaran and his army as seen in OB?  Marsh and his 1000 koloss vs Amaran and his army?  Elend and 200 seers with an hour of constant atium vs Amaran and his army? How many seers would be needed at the least do make it happen? Probably Vasher and Phantoms, Amaram's army was still basically ordinary people. Same for Marsh and Koloss, they would win. And so would Elend and 200 seers I think. Edited May 10, 2023 by therunner
alder24 Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 31 minutes ago, Frustration said: The Seers in HoA didn't have bows 3 minutes ago, therunner said: If Windrunners can't have shields (and lets face it, with reverse lashing, nearly anything can serve as shield, since you don't have to maintain contact), I don't see why seers get bows. Ehh, I'm not saying give them bows, I'm saying IF they had bows. I'm talking about multiple different scenarios at once. 6 minutes ago, therunner said: The only danger is Elend, Seer vs Windrunner squire goes to squire easily (spray full lashing around Seer, close in to immobilize them, then use Reverse Lashings to pull them apart or simply shoot them full of rocks), and Elend's ranged offense can be entirely eliminated via Reverse Lashing, and Kaladin has range advantage in melee. I think Elend would get overwhelmed, since his Seers would fall sooner. 34 minutes ago, Frustration said: The Seers in HoA didn't have bows, and don't underestimate the power of full lashings, as seen in the chasm scenes Windrunners can throw them, if Kal and the others can establish a parimeter they can slowly draw the full lashings in until the seers are all trapped, and unable to move. Elend is the only one who could escape and shardblades can cut his steel lines. Good point about full lashing. But if it's done up close, Atium would show it to Seers, and they would be able to escape - this has to be done like Frustration said, from far away, closing in. But the question remains, how much Stromlight would it consume? You need more Stormlight for full lashings to last longer, but with the area which is required here, it might not be economical. 10 minutes ago, therunner said: Edit: Also typical advantage of Seer is not so strong against someone with Healing, who can simply tank a killing blown to land killing blow on Seer. Seer's are completely physically inferior to Squire, who is stronger, faster, more nimble, do not tire, and heal their wounds. Also good point - however I counter it that Seer can SEE that they're not dead and they attack back. Plus you assume Windrunners know about Elend's army seeing the future, so the same should be assumed about Elend's army knowing about powers and healing of Windrunners. They won't strike and get killed because they didn't know Windrunners can heal. If we're talking about purly and engaging melee combat (they fight with swords not waiting above) with 1h of supplies, seer will win, because they can drain Windrunner by wounding them constantly, while Windrunner can't do anything in return. Better physique won't help against future sight. 15 minutes ago, therunner said: So does Vasher have enough Breath to keep Nightblood drawn for an hour? Because that is absolutely obscene amount of Breath, Nightblood draws exponentially more the longer he is drawn, and we have never seen him drawn for longer than few minutes at a time at most. Yeah, that's a huge problem  But he won't need an hour to kill them all, and Koloss provides a bit investiture on their own. Moreover, Nightblood was already used on the battlefield by Shashara - Vasher should be fine somehow.  13 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I am not sure about atium burn time. In my mind metals are toggleable which makes them the better choice in a fight vs stormlight which leaks more. I know that stormlight can be returned to spheres but is that beyond what squires can do?  Squires can do that. Atium can be "toggleable" but at that point you don't really know when to start burning it and you will die from unexpected rock lashed into you. You need to burn Atium almost constantly to use it effectively. 15 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I think the balance comes down to the idea that they have to meet eachother in close quarters combat eventually. Hovering around out of range would be a poor option because elend would likely cut them all down eventually. No, Elend won't cut them if Windrunners just stay 1km above the ground. He can't reach them even with duralumin. Windrunners can stay up and throw rock and empty spheres at them, forcing them to constanlty burn their Atium. 17 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I think the question is... how much stormlight will be wasted per attack needed to heal through before they run out and can't heal anymore. I imagine there is a magical ratio that says one side wins vs the other. An hour of each probably would go to the atium side. But could toggleable 10 minutes of atium each allow them to land the needed hits to win the battle vs squires with an hour worth of full lashings or would the stormlight get used up too fast healing through future sight attacks?  If you want melee combat, you should choose the order that CAN'T FLY and wait for the other side to run out of Atium... In melee combat Seers would win in most situations. 19 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: What about Vasher and his 100 phantoms vs Amaran and his army as seen in OB?  Is Vasher with Nightblood? He wins. Without? He would have trouble fighting against a Shardblade. 20 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Marsh and his 1000 koloss vs Amaran and his army?  Koloss destroy Amaram's Army, Marsh with Atium duralumin pushes something into his crystal heart, breaking it apart. 21 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Elend and 200 seers with an hour of constant atium vs Amaran and his army? How many seers would be needed at the least do make it happen? You know Amaram's army are just some dudes? They are just Thrilled to kill, controlled by Voidspren, they don't have any extra supernatural abilities? Seers win standing in the hole in the wall, negating the numerical advantage. Crystal is broken with Elend and duralumin steel push. 23 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Basically I am reading the battle for Thaylen fields and am curious what other armies from other books would have needed in that moment.  What if a portal opened and 40,000 lifeless army from warbreaker came through with their 4 Returned with passcodes each with 3 or 4 priests at the 4th heightening?  Maybe finish reading it to see if any army is even necessary?
therunner he/him Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, alder24 said: Ehh, I'm not saying give them bows, I'm saying IF they had bows. I'm talking about multiple different scenarios at once. Ah, fair Quote Good point about full lashing. But if it's done up close, Atium would show it to Seers, and they would be able to escape - this has to be done like Frustration said, from far away, closing in. But the question remains, how much Stromlight would it consume? You need more Stormlight for full lashings to last longer, but with the area which is required here, it might not be economical. Well, under effect of Supperssor fabrial which severely lowered his effeciency, Kaladin was still able to easily paint entire hallway in Full Lashing just on a couple of spheres, which are far less then one hour worth of Stormlight. Also, you can use Reverse Lashing to pull Seer into painted Full Lashing, Seer cannot see Reverse Lashing nor react to it properly. 12 minutes ago, alder24 said: Also good point - however I counter it that Seer can SEE that they're not dead and they attack back. Plus you assume Windrunners know about Elend's army seeing the future, so the same should be assumed about Elend's army knowing about powers and healing of Windrunners. They won't strike and get killed because they didn't know Windrunners can heal. Fair, but Squire can tank a couple of blows, which Seer cannot. If both sides know about both powers (fair assumption) then Seer will know they have to land crippling blows, or sever spine for any efficiency, which limits what attacks they can do. But it won't help them dodge Full lashings or Reverse Lashings. Conversely, Windrunner will know to keep distance, and with their superior mobility can easily achieve that. Second, they know they have to immobilize Seer, and they have tools for the job. 12 minutes ago, alder24 said: If we're talking about purly and engaging melee combat (they fight with swords not waiting above) with 1h of supplies, seer will win, because they can drain Windrunner by wounding them constantly, while Windrunner can't do anything in return. Better physique won't help against future sight. I don't think so, All Windrunner has to do to win is apply Full Lashing to seer once, and then sever blood vessels in their legs and wait for Seer to bleed out. They can achieve that either by trading one blow for one touch, or by painting enough of ground with Full lashing to trap Seer, or by painting ground with Full lashing and then using Reverse Lashing to forcibly pull Seer into it. Windrunner has a lot of options on how to limit Seer's mobility and then those immobilized body parts. 12 minutes ago, alder24 said: Yeah, that's a huge problem  But he won't need an hour to kill them all, and Koloss provides a bit investiture on their own. Moreover, Nightblood was already used on the battlefield by Shashara - Vasher should be fine somehow. We don't know how long that battle was, it is possible it was over after couple of minutes for all we know Also, Nightblood was weaker at that time, it is possible he was drawing in Investiture more slowly back then. Edited May 10, 2023 by therunner
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted May 10, 2023 Author Posted May 10, 2023 23 minutes ago, alder24 said: Ehh, I'm not saying give them bows, I'm saying IF they had bows. I'm talking about multiple different scenarios at once. Good point about full lashing. But if it's done up close, Atium would show it to Seers, and they would be able to escape - this has to be done like Frustration said, from far away, closing in. But the question remains, how much Stromlight would it consume? You need more Stormlight for full lashings to last longer, but with the area which is required here, it might not be economical. Also good point - however I counter it that Seer can SEE that they're not dead and they attack back. Plus you assume Windrunners know about Elend's army seeing the future, so the same should be assumed about Elend's army knowing about powers and healing of Windrunners. They won't strike and get killed because they didn't know Windrunners can heal. If we're talking about purly and engaging melee combat (they fight with swords not waiting above) with 1h of supplies, seer will win, because they can drain Windrunner by wounding them constantly, while Windrunner can't do anything in return. Better physique won't help against future sight. Yeah, that's a huge problem  But he won't need an hour to kill them all, and Koloss provides a bit investiture on their own. Moreover, Nightblood was already used on the battlefield by Shashara - Vasher should be fine somehow.  Squires can do that. Atium can be "toggleable" but at that point you don't really know when to start burning it and you will die from unexpected rock lashed into you. You need to burn Atium almost constantly to use it effectively. No, Elend won't cut them if Windrunners just stay 1km above the ground. He can't reach them even with duralumin. Windrunners can stay up and throw rock and empty spheres at them, forcing them to constanlty burn their Atium. If you want melee combat, you should choose the order that CAN'T FLY and wait for the other side to run out of Atium... In melee combat Seers would win in most situations. Is Vasher with Nightblood? He wins. Without? He would have trouble fighting against a Shardblade. Koloss destroy Amaram's Army, Marsh with Atium duralumin pushes something into his crystal heart, breaking it apart. You know Amaram's army are just some dudes? They are just Thrilled to kill, controlled by Voidspren, they don't have any extra supernatural abilities? Seers win standing in the hole in the wall, negating the numerical advantage. Crystal is broken with Elend and duralumin steel push. Maybe finish reading it to see if any army is even necessary? I'm working through it at the pace I can with life.  Its just for fun. In my mind it is a large army but I am sure I have missed some specifics that make it trivial for most.  While reading through the cosmere books I have always felt like systems and cultures are built so well against themselves that the opposite systems actually pose a much better threat towards them than fighting within themselves.  I can't help but picture Vin dropping in to save the day instead of Kaladin and Shallan stepping through a portal. I can't help thinking what wreckage a few shardbearers could have stacked at the end of HoA or a single Jasna at 4th ideal... I just can't help myself while preoccupied in a position where I can't read/ listen but I can ponder. Â
alder24 Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 23 minutes ago, therunner said: Well, under effect of Supperssor fabrial which severely lowered his effeciency, Kaladin was still able to easily paint entire hallway in Full Lashing just on a couple of spheres, which are far less then one hour worth of Stormlight. How long did that full lashing last? The question is, which we don't know, how much Stormlight is needed for full lashing, like in some units. Like 1 full broam per 1 m^2 per 1 minute or something like that. I want to know that. Until we get this, it's all speculations. Too late to think about proper questions now  29 minutes ago, therunner said: Also, you can use Reverse Lashing to pull Seer into painted Full Lashing, Seer cannot see Reverse Lashing nor react to it properly. Ars Arcanum: Quote It is much harder for Reverse Lashing to affect objects touching the ground, where their link to the planet is the strongest; objects falling or in flight are the easiest to influence.  30 minutes ago, therunner said: Fair, but Squire can tank a couple of blows, which Seer cannot. If both sides know about both powers (fair assumption) then Seer will know they have to land crippling blows, or sever spine for any efficiency, which limits what attacks they can do. Not really, they just need to wound them without being wounded themself - which is no problem for a Seer - look at Yomen vs Elend, despite having no skill in fighting, Yomen just outclassed Elend until he started to burn electrum. 32 minutes ago, therunner said: But it won't help them dodge Full lashings or Reverse Lashings. Full Lashing might have an Atium shadow, like Shardblades. They will know if it will be placed too close to them, and simply avoid it. 34 minutes ago, therunner said: Conversely, Windrunner will know to keep distance, and with their superior mobility can easily achieve that. Second, they know they have to immobilize Seer, and they have tools for the job. Yes, as I said, that's the best way to defeat an army of melee Seers. Don't engage, throw rocks at them to force them to burn Atium. That's it. 35 minutes ago, therunner said: I don't think so, All Windrunner has to do to win is apply Full Lashing to seer once, and then sever blood vessels in their legs and wait for Seer to bleed out. Even when standing still in place, Seer would be able to block any blow squire could do. Just no. That's not that easy. Again, Yomen vs Elend. 37 minutes ago, therunner said: They can achieve that either by trading one blow for one touch There is no trading. Seer SEES that he will get hit back and won't commit to the attack. 38 minutes ago, therunner said: We don't know how long that battle was, it is possible it was over after couple of minutes for all we know Yyyy, I have a favor to ask. Give me one example of a full scale battle with sizable armies that lasted only couple of minute  On the other hand there are many battles that lasted for days, weeks, or months - Battle of Khotyn (1621) lasted 37 days  44 minutes ago, therunner said: Also, Nightblood was weaker at that time, it is possible he was drawing in Investiture more slowly back then. Or faster because he wasn't able to get full and go into food coma   27 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I can't help but picture Vin dropping in to save the day instead of Kaladin and Shallan stepping through a portal. I can't help thinking what wreckage a few shardbearers could have stacked at the end of HoA or a single Jasna at 4th ideal... Vin? Against so many Fused and a Thunderclust? Not much.
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted May 10, 2023 Author Posted May 10, 2023 9 minutes ago, alder24 said: Vin? Against so many Fused and a Thunderclust? Not much. I can't state how unimpressed I am with the fused so far. You have Kaladin who fought multiple at the oathgate so far. Then I have seen Szeth talk about how skilled they are at flying. Then this happened. I both decided Jasna was pretty busted and that the Fused are completely lame and inconsistent in the same 30 second clip. Navani calls out to her and she soulcasts the pitch and lights one fused on fire. Super cool but stupidly op. Effortless. Then she sees the spren move in the cognitive realm and turns ivory into a sword and cuts the head of the next fused as it flew right into her blade... what happened to the super long spears of aluminum? Why on earth would it fly close enough and recklessly enough to get 1 shot by her melee weapon?  The fused are probably the single worst enemy or character type I have read from Brandon thus far. I don't think they pose a threat to Vin. The thunderclast maybe but you still have other shards out there to deal with that. Nightblood is in play. Vin could fall into the enemy army and duralumin shove with pewter out in all directions and cause absolute hellacious consequences to Amaran's army. But that is SA. The thousands and thousands of dead humans mean nothing to the reader because noone cares about anything other than the gods waving their hands and using surges to vaporize and slaughter entire armies at a time. Â
alder24 Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I can't state how unimpressed I am with the fused so far. You have Kaladin who fought multiple at the oathgate so far. Then I have seen Szeth talk about how skilled they are at flying. Then this happened. I both decided Jasna was pretty busted and that the Fused are completely lame and inconsistent in the same 30 second clip. Navani calls out to her and she soulcasts the pitch and lights one fused on fire. Super cool but stupidly op. Effortless. Then she sees the spren move in the cognitive realm and turns ivory into a sword and cuts the head of the next fused as it flew right into her blade... what happened to the super long spears of aluminum? Why on earth would it fly close enough and recklessly enough to get 1 shot by her melee weapon?  The fused are probably the single worst enemy or character type I have read from Brandon thus far. I don't think they pose a threat to Vin. The thunderclast maybe but you still have other shards out there to deal with that. Nightblood is in play. Vin could fall into the enemy army and duralumin shove with pewter out in all directions and cause absolute hellacious consequences to Amaran's army. I understand, their strength against VIn would come not from powers but from numbers and cooperation. Fused are challenging, just not for Radiants. Fused compared to Radiants seems just weak, which is sad. They don't even have a combat skill like Heralds have, if all were fighting like them, because they all have been fighting for 5 millenias, then even with their single Surge, limited healing and no Shards, they would be fearsome enemies. To equalize, cut their numbers in favor of new Regal forms, making Fused just much rarer, but far more challenging. Vin would have a very hard time, or no chances at all, against the Fused that grows stone. Coins won't hurt him.
Trusk'our he/him Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: #1: Elend and 50 of his atium users vs 3rd ideal Kal with 50 squires. An interesting battle. Seers have the ability to dodge and hit perfectly for one hour, but Windrunners have the ability to heal from even the most severe injuries and can Lash. It would likely be a battle of attrition- of whether the Seers can shoot the Windrunners with enough arrows (if we assume they have bows) to overwhelm their healing, and if they can modulate their burn of Atium to outlast their opponents. If the Windrunners can Reverse-Lash the Seers (assuming they aren't too Invested from burning a Godmetal) the battle becomes much more one sided, though from what we've seen in RoW, no one Kaladin knows has had a great deal of practice with that particular use of their powers (okay, Szeth does, but we aren't talking about him here). Or, I suppose they could Reverse-Lash the Seer's weapons, which are not Invested- but again, they don't have training with that ability. 1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: #2: Marsh in HoA and 1000 koloss vs Vasher w/nightblood and 100 kalads phantoms. I think that Koloss would fare far better against Kalad's Phantoms than a human army- they are very strong, and they use their "swords" more like maces than bladed weaponry, so with 10 to 1, I think the Koloss would easily trump the Phantoms. Marsh has more physical enhancements and powers than Vasher, including the ability to fly, use a limited form of telekinesis, and regenerate from most non-Invested attacks. However, Vasher has hundreds of years of skill, and he has Nightblood. Now, that wouldn't be an automatic win, but if Vasher can drop Nightblood for the Koloss to use, I think that they would be particularly susceptible to its influence (they're already bloodthirsty, even without having their Spiritwebs cracked open to outside influence). I think that if Vasher were to play his cars right and dump Nightblood into the midst of Marsh's army that the Koloss would kill themselves while his Phantoms protect him from the others. Marsh himself might be particularly vulnerable to Nightblood's emotional influence due to the large number of spikes he has. So basically, if Vasher is smart (which he is), he probably wins. Unless Marsh has Atium, in which case he might be able to overwhelm Vasher, Nightblood notwithstanding. 23 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I can't state how unimpressed I am with the fused so far. You have Kaladin who fought multiple at the oathgate so far. Then I have seen Szeth talk about how skilled they are at flying. Then this happened. I both decided Jasna was pretty busted and that the Fused are completely lame and inconsistent in the same 30 second clip. Navani calls out to her and she soulcasts the pitch and lights one fused on fire. Super cool but stupidly op. Effortless. Then she sees the spren move in the cognitive realm and turns ivory into a sword and cuts the head of the next fused as it flew right into her blade... what happened to the super long spears of aluminum? Why on earth would it fly close enough and recklessly enough to get 1 shot by her melee weapon?  The fused are probably the single worst enemy or character type I have read from Brandon thus far. I don't think they pose a threat to Vin. The thunderclast maybe but you still have other shards out there to deal with that. Nightblood is in play. Vin could fall into the enemy army and duralumin shove with pewter out in all directions and cause absolute hellacious consequences to Amaran's army. I have to agree; the Fused are an absolute joke of an enemy. When Kaladin was being chased by the Pursuer my only thought was, "how is it that this idiot is so feared? How on Roshar has he- apparently- been able to consistently kill Radiants throughout the history of the Desolations?" They have thousands of years of experience fighting and using their Surges- yet somehow they are frequently outclassed by Radiants who are barely older than teenagers. 30 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: But that is SA. The thousands and thousands of dead humans mean nothing to the reader because noone cares about anything other than the gods waving their hands and using surges to vaporize and slaughter entire armies at a time. Yeah, I actually felt bad for Sadeas's army; they got possessed by what are essentially demons, then got slaughtered while they were in a mind-fog and barely lucid. Then whoever survived afterward probably became slaves for said "demons" that would eventually spend their lives on menial labor or becoming cannon fodder. They really got the short end of the stick by my accounting.
therunner he/him Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, alder24 said: How long did that full lashing last? The question is, which we don't know, how much Stormlight is needed for full lashing, like in some units. Like 1 full broam per 1 m^2 per 1 minute or something like that. I want to know that. Until we get this, it's all speculations. Too late to think about proper questions now Several minutes at minimum? That is usually how long Full Lashing lasts typically. And since assumptions is that Squires have enough Stormlight for hour, I assume that means they have enough Stormlight to actually use their abilities for an hour. Quote Ars Arcanum: Harder to influence, not immune to Reverse Lashing. If it makes them stumble into Full Lashing, that is enough. And we see Reverse Lashing affect objects on ground as well, when Kaladin uses brush infused with it to steal case full of spanreeds. So there is that. Quote Not really, they just need to wound them without being wounded themself - which is no problem for a Seer - look at Yomen vs Elend, despite having no skill in fighting, Yomen just outclassed Elend until he started to burn electrum. Elend is caught off-guard, Squire would not be (if we assume both sides know about the powers). Elend has no way to immobilize the Seer, Squire does. Elend could not just fly around Seer, Squire can. Elend tried to engage Yomen in close quarters, Squire would not (at least not without Immobilizing them first). Quote Full Lashing might have an Atium shadow, like Shardblades. They will know if it will be placed too close to them, and simply avoid it. We don't know that Shardblades have Atium shadows as far as I know. But we know that sufficiently Invested objects cannot be detected via steel lines, so perhaps they would not cast Atium shadows either. Either way, put Full lashing circle around Seer, and Seer is locked in there and you can start painting the inside to trap Seer. Seer has no way to avoid it then. If Seer tries to jump, use Reverse lashing to pull him back. Quote Even when standing still in place, Seer would be able to block any blow squire could do. Just no. That's not that easy. Again, Yomen vs Elend. Not standing in place, physically rooted in place, if you cannot shift your legs at all, you are severely limited in your range of movements (unless you want to fall over). Once immobilized like that, Squire could throw Full Lashing on him, and then topple him (e.g. by Lashing some larger object at Seer). Seer can no longer dodge, they are just human with no Pewter enhancements or anything like it, if they physically cannot dodge, they will get hit. Then, when they are glued to ground, you can stab them at leisure. Alternatively, just get two Squires attacking at once from different sides, Seers cannot block both at once. Easy and done. Another option, Lash a spear fast enough at their immobilized legs to break them. They cannot block that (not effectively), and with broken legs they topple over, get fully immobilized, and can be stabed at leisure by a single Squire. Quote There is no trading. Seer SEES that he will get hit back and won't commit to the attack. So Seer cannot afford to strike someone with healing? Quote Yyyy, I have a favor to ask. Give me one example of a full scale battle with sizable armies that lasted only couple of minute  On the other hand there are many battles that lasted for days, weeks, or months - Battle of Khotyn (1621) lasted 37 days  Give me one example of IRL battle were unseen weapon of mass destruction was unleashed, and killed possibly thousands. Also, we don't even know if Nightblood was wielded throughout the entire battle, it is possible Shashara pulled it out as a last resort, and used it to end the battle relatively quickly. But since we know that Nightblood eats exponentially more the longer he is out, that 50000 Breaths are a gigantic amount, I think we can comfortably say Shashara could not have wielded Nightblood for hours. Five Schoolars simply did not have enough Breath to keep it fueled.  Quote Or faster because he wasn't able to get full and go into food coma  Unlikely, he was weaker. 9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: The fused are probably the single worst enemy or character type I have read from Brandon thus far. I don't think they pose a threat to Vin. The thunderclast maybe but you still have other shards out there to deal with that. Nightblood is in play. Vin could fall into the enemy army and duralumin shove with pewter out in all directions and cause absolute hellacious consequences to Amaran's army. Fused have carapace in a lot of places that can be about as strong as Steel. Vin has no way to hurt them without using Duralumin steel pushes, Duralumin Pewter punches, which leave her open for a counterattack (not to mention she has to extinguish other metals to use Duralumin). The only ace in the hole Vin would have is Atium, and even that is questionable against some Fused. Row spoilers: Spoiler I mean, Raboniel soulcasted a weapon as it hit her to completely negate a strike. What is Vin going to do against that? What would Vin do against Pursuer? Pursuer teleports to her, grabs her from behind, and stabs her spine like he did to Kaladin, and Vin is dead. What about those that can meld into ground? They could take away her anchors, and ambush her when she is on ground and pull her under. Magnified one can grow carapace as strong as steel wherever they want, and can heal. Also, all Fused are now at least a bit insane, since they have been Cognitive Shadows for over 5 millenia. Of course they won't be as effective as they were when they started. 8 hours ago, Trusk'our said: Or, I suppose they could Reverse-Lash the Seer's weapons, which are not Invested- but again, they don't have training with that ability. I don't think you need that much practice, Kaladin uses it before swearing first Oath instinctively. And when restricted in RoW, pick it up very fast. The main thing there is Intent, which is quite straightforward (pull that stuff to yourself). 8 hours ago, Trusk'our said: I have to agree; the Fused are an absolute joke of an enemy. When Kaladin was being chased by the Pursuer my only thought was, "how is it that this idiot is so feared? How on Roshar has he- apparently- been able to consistently kill Radiants throughout the history of the Desolations?" Well Fused are far more insane than in past Desolations, that alone makes them less dangerous. Spoiler something Kaladin explicitly exploits against Pursuer. And even so, they are still quite challenging. I would say they are no more joke than TLR, who fell to a teenager with less then a year of practice, despite being a fricking Fullborn Quote They have thousands of years of experience fighting and using their Surges- yet somehow they are frequently outclassed by Radiants who are barely older than teenagers. No, they had possibly hundreds of years of experience, and thousands of years of being locked away on Braize. If they practiced there sure, but from what we hear, I don't think that is the case, if I am not mistaken they are described as 'sleeping'. So if anything, current Fused are thousands of years out of practice. Also, current batch of Radiant is more skilled then Fused expected, and some Fused note multiple times how quickly humans are coming to Surges. And Honor's restrictions are falling away, if that means anything. So at the same time Fused are weaker than they used to be, and Radiants are stronger then Fused expected.  Edited May 11, 2023 by therunner 1
Trusk'our he/him Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, therunner said: I don't think you need that much practice, Kaladin uses it before swearing first Oath instinctively. And when restricted in RoW, pick it up very fast. Good point. I suppose you could compare it to Wayne's use of A-steel in TLM; he could do it and use it effectively in combat (he shot some guards with some metal and Steeljumped at least once from what I recall), he just wasn't exactly grade-A material while doing so. 4 hours ago, therunner said: I would say they are no more joke than TLR, who fell to a teenager with less then a year of practice, despite being a fricking Fullborn Do you mean the teenager who literally had to call upon deus ex machina to beat him, and who had had her mentor's steps to bring down said frickn' Fullborn guided by an ancient super-intellect that had a thousand years to do nothing but scheme? Just saying, I don't really think of those situations in the same light, but I suppose that could just be my opinion. 4 hours ago, therunner said: No, they had possibly hundreds of years of experience, and thousands of years of being locked away on Braize. If they practiced there sure, but from what we hear, I don't think that is the case, if I am not mistaken they are described as 'sleeping'. So if anything, current Fused are thousands of years out of practice. Okay, that's a fair point- they're probably not exactly on their A-game due to having just woken up from millennia of slumber. I just wish that the Fused (or at least some of them) were made into a much bigger threat; if a single Fused showed up on the battlefield the characters would have to basically dogpile them just to stand a real chance. Basically, think of the fight with Ishar- if the Fused were like that but marginally easier (in that they do actually end up getting beaten by the end of the fight) I'd be a lot more satisfied with them as an enemy. Edited May 11, 2023 by Trusk'our 1
alder24 Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 4 hours ago, therunner said: Several minutes at minimum? That is usually how long Full Lashing lasts typically. Coppermind says that Full Lashing can last longer if more Stormlight is pour into it. That's why I'm asking. 4 hours ago, therunner said: And since assumptions is that Squires have enough Stormlight for hour, I assume that means they have enough Stormlight to actually use their abilities for an hour. That assumption is ambiguous at best - in case of Mistborn it is simple, every power they have is fueled by different metal, they just got 1h of every metal. But Radiants fuel everything with Stormlight. What is an hour of fight? Using basic lashings for 1h at 10g? Reverse lashing everything for 1h? Or whatever we imagine Windrunners are capable of doing in 1h is possible for them to do? In that case they can just lift a plateau from the Shattered Plains and drop them at Seers at 30% of the speed of light - all that in 1h so by this assumption they have light to do it. That's why I can't wait for Brandon to standardize units of investiture, then we can just say "they have 10 units of investiture" and know how much investiture each power and surge is using. 4 hours ago, therunner said: And we see Reverse Lashing affect objects on ground as well, when Kaladin uses brush infused with it to steal case full of spanreeds. So there is that. I think it was a table, so technically not the ground (joke) 4 hours ago, therunner said: Elend is caught off-guard, Squire would not be (if we assume both sides know about the powers). Elend has no way to immobilize the Seer, Squire does. Elend could not just fly around Seer, Squire can. Elend tried to engage Yomen in close quarters, Squire would not (at least not without Immobilizing them first). Let me clarify - Seer sees the rusting future! In melee combat there is no way for a Windrunner to defeat him. Period. It's really hard to immobilize someone that sees the future, Seer knows what Windrunner will do and will just avoid him. Spraying Full Lashing is not an option in close combat, as Seer can just move away, because he sees Windrunner doing that, he sees where Full Lashing is applied, and he knows where to go to avoid it - and a single Windrunner can't spray it in a circle 10 m in radius, he can't spray it all around the Seer at the same time. Seer can just avoid it. And Reverse Lashing won't make Seer "stumble" into a pool of Full Lashing 10 m away from him. 10 m is a distance that a Seer can for sure run in 1-3 seconds. The only way to immobilize Elend's army with Full Lashing is like Frustration said - first establish a parameter around them, spraying a big circle of Full Lashing so far away, that they can't just outrun you. Then just spray it closer and closer to them, until they can move at all. I’m not denying this won’t work - it will, but it is a time and investiture consuming process (and Elend can likely just duralumin steel push everyone out of the circle (better not, that would hurt them), or just carry them out).  But in versus topic I'm rarely focusing on a single scenario. Fighting isn't a repetitive thing. It's dynamic and changing, and it can play differently each time. That's why I'm thinking, what if Windrunners don't draw a huge circle of Full Lashing, what can they do up close with Full Lashing? When you have a close fight, spraying Full Lashings won't work up close, as Seers can simply move away from it before Lasing even lands. Windrunners flying won't change anything for Seers - they can still avoid them, and avoid everything they throw and spray at Seers, they see it coming. My point with Yomen is to show that a physically inferior person, someone with almost no combat training at all, can still beat a skillful fighter if he has Atium. Therefore all the advantages of physical strength of the Windrunners don't matter. And I really would love to have a chapter and quote of Full Lashing applied from a distance - I don't remember it at all. Even when Seer somehow got their feet glued to the ground - he still has a sword to block every Windrunner's attack, he'll be fine, unless several of them at once starts to attack him (which would be not happening, as both sides have equal numbers and they would engage in 1 on 1 honorable combat, as seen in RoW). In that case, whatever they do, they won't kill Seers for an 1h. Until both sides run out of investiture. Then Windrunners will win, because Kaladin has a Shardblade and can run around cutting their spirits into pieces. 4 hours ago, therunner said: We don't know that Shardblades have Atium shadows as far as I know. Atium has an Atium Shadow... Shardplate has one too. Shardblade will have it as well, Full and Reverse Lashings are therefore very likely to have one as well. Spoiler relient23 (paraphrased) If you're burning atium, can you predict the trajectory of an atium (atium, not aluminum) bullet? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Atium? Yes. But aluminum... Maybe not so much. *sly smile* Shadows of Self Houston signing (Oct. 7, 2015)  Spoiler Questioner Would a Mistborn see the atium shadow of someone wearing Shardplate? Brandon Sanderson Yes, they would be able to. Good question, but they would indeed be able to. Skyward Atlanta signing (Nov. 17, 2018)  5 hours ago, therunner said: Alternatively, just get two Squires attacking at once from different sides, Seers cannot block both at once. Easy and done. 50 vs 50. Windrunners in RoW are fighting 1 on 1. You can't really take 2 vs 1, without a second Seer coming and helping or attacking a different pair overwhelming a single squire. Not so easy. 5 hours ago, therunner said: Another option, Lash a spear fast enough at their immobilized legs to break them. They cannot block that (not effectively), and with broken legs they topple over, get fully immobilized, and can be stabed at leisure by a single Squire. Their spear will get splintered into pieces by impact. 5 hours ago, therunner said: So Seer cannot afford to strike someone with healing? Why not? As long as Seer sees that this won't result in him getting hurt, he can - which would happen everytime, as he can stab and dodge incoming attacks at the same time. He sees the future. 5 hours ago, therunner said: Give me one example of IRL battle were unseen weapon of mass destruction was unleashed, and killed possibly thousands. Second Battle of Ypres - Apr 22, 1915 – May 25, 1915 - first use of toxic gas, total allied casualties - 80k. 5 hours ago, therunner said: Also, we don't even know if Nightblood was wielded throughout the entire battle, it is possible Shashara pulled it out as a last resort, and used it to end the battle relatively quickly. The effect of Nightblood during that battle was devastating - it was used for more than just a last resort. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Lightsong Sees the Painting of the Red Battle This is our first major clue (though a subtle one at the same time) that there might be something to the religion of the Iridescent Tones. Lightsong does see something in this painting that an ordinary person wouldn't be able to. A well-crafted piece of art, made by a person channeling the Tones and connected to them via Breath, can speak to a Returned. Now, in this case, it doesn't work quite like Llarimar says it does—Lightsong doesn't actually prophesy about the black sword in the way the priest thinks. In other words, Lightsong isn't prophesying that he'll see the Black Sword (Nightblood) in the day's activities. Instead, Lightsong is seeing an image of a previous war, which is prophetic in that another Manywar is brewing—and in both cases, Nightblood will be important to the outcome of the battle. The person Lightsong sees in the abstract painting is Shashara, Denth's sister, one of the Five Scholars and a Returned also known as Glorysinger by the Cult of the Returned. She is seen here in Lightsong's vision as she's drawing Nightblood at the battle of Twilight Falls. It's the only time the sword was drawn in battle, and Vasher was horrified by the result. It's because of her insistence on using the sword in battle, and on giving away the secret to creating more, that Vasher and she fought. He ended up killing her with Nightblood, which they'd created together during the days they were in love—he married her a short time before their falling out. That marriage ended with him slaying his own wife to keep her from creating more abominations like Nightblood and loosing them upon the world. Nightblood is part of a much larger story in this world. He's dropped casually into this particular book, more as a side note than a real focus of what's going on, but his own role in the world is much, much larger than his supporting part here would indicate. Warbreaker Annotations (Nov. 16, 2010)  5 hours ago, therunner said: Unlikely, he was weaker. Weaker? Less invested - yes. But does it mean that he draws investiture slower? Unlikely. Do Returned need more Breaths to feed their Divine Breath when they have 50k Breaths? No. I don't see the reason why Nightblood's investiture consumption rate would change with more investiture. 5 hours ago, therunner said: Well Fused are far more insane than in past Desolations, that alone makes them less dangerous. Taln is too, and yet he caught 2 darts with incredible speed - skills that Fused are lacking after the same time spent at fighting. 5 hours ago, therunner said: I would say they are no more joke than TLR, who fell to a teenager with less then a year of practice, despite being a fricking Fullborn He lost literally to deus ex machina! Preservation's Chosen One! Not a teenager but the Vessel for Mists! Hard to win against someone that starts drinking moisture from the air which gives her power and strength.  37 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: I just wish that the Fused (or at least some of them) were made into a much bigger threat; if a single Fused showed up on the battlefield the characters would have to basically dogpile them just to stand a real chance. Basically, think of the fight with Ishar- if the Fused were like that but marginally easier (in that they do actually end up getting beaten by the end of the fight) I'd be a lot more satisfied with them as an enemy. I'm pretty sure that in SA 5 we will see Pursuer type Fused killed left and right, the only one type which currently pose a significant threat to Radiants. I agree with you, they were overhyped, Voidbringers, destruction etc, they came and don't live up to the hype. They should be as skilled as Heralds, or at least comparably. 1
Duxredux he/him Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 Â I'll chime in on a couple of these. Back at Kalad's Phantoms vs Koloss, I'd argue that Koloss with their giant swords are actually one of the best groups to fight Kalad's phantoms. They use huge metal swords used to bash stuff to pieces. They will have a massive reach advantage and don't need much finesse, and I'm guessing the Phantoms will be strong but likely less agile than ordinary soldiers since they can just tank most close combat weapons. That said Vasher will be the absolute best when it comes to giving them commands to take others down, and if you gave him 50,000 Breaths then he can start remotely Awakening Koloss loincloths (not sure if he'd want to) and Marsh's clothes. I did a check to see if Vasher could Awaken fallen Koloss, but the Hemalurgy doesn't play well with Awakening. I'd still lean towards Vasher winning, but I'm not sure how many Phantoms he'd have left. As for the Fused, others have said good stuff but I'll add in a few things. There may be setbacks due to the nature of their serial reincarnation by taking the body of another Singer. That might reset their muscle memory, though their Surgebinding generally is top notch. I'll also note that the Heralds, even before the formation of the Knights Radiant, beat the Fused every single time. They only really lost when it was 10 vs all of Braise. Furthermore the Fused to this point have not been directly powered by Odium, whereas for most of the conflict Honor has directly powered the Heralds and now the coalition has Dalinar's Perpendicularity. Even in the stories, they really just excel at prolonged wars of attrition and provoke questions of whether or not to commit genocide. 14 hours ago, Trusk'our said: They have thousands of years of experience fighting and using their Surges- yet somehow they are frequently outclassed by Radiants who are barely older than teenagers. I'll point out that the average age of Olympic athletes is mid to late 20's. There is variance by sport, some older, but for humans that is the prime of physical speed and power. Don't forget that Rosharans are slightly older than on paper due to their calendar system. But yeah, I agree, the stakes in SA are weird and the Fused don't really add that much tension with so much healing available. It feels pretty heavily that for someone to die the wavy dagger of plot and treachery must have their name on it and a lot of things need to conspire to make it happen.
Frustration Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Let me clarify - Seer sees the rusting future! In melee combat there is no way for a Windrunner to defeat him. Period. It's really hard to immobilize someone that sees the future, Seer knows what Windrunner will do and will just avoid him. Spraying Full Lashing is not an option in close combat, as Seer can just move away, because he sees Windrunner doing that, he sees where Full Lashing is applied, and he knows where to go to avoid it - and a single Windrunner can't spray it in a circle 10 m in radius, he can't spray it all around the Seer at the same time. Seer can just avoid it. And Reverse Lashing won't make Seer "stumble" into a pool of Full Lashing 10 m away from him. 10 m is a distance that a Seer can for sure run in 1-3 seconds. Atium has an Atium Shadow... Shardplate has one too. Shardblade will have it as well, Full and Reverse Lashings are therefore very likely to have one as well.  Reveal hidden contents relient23 (paraphrased) If you're burning atium, can you predict the trajectory of an atium (atium, not aluminum) bullet? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Atium? Yes. But aluminum... Maybe not so much. *sly smile* Shadows of Self Houston signing (Oct. 7, 2015)   Reveal hidden contents Questioner Would a Mistborn see the atium shadow of someone wearing Shardplate? Brandon Sanderson Yes, they would be able to. Good question, but they would indeed be able to. Skyward Atlanta signing (Nov. 17, 2018)  You could see Shardblades, but the more I think about it I don't think you could see lashings, I guess it all comes down to how atium shadows interact with light. But given that even blind people could use Atium, I don't think it shows light.  Thinking about it, did anyone using Atium ever describe seeing where the Mists would go? 1 hour ago, alder24 said: I'm pretty sure that in SA 5 we will see Pursuer type Fused killed left and right, the only one type which currently pose a significant threat to Radiants. I agree with you, they were overhyped, Voidbringers, destruction etc, they came and don't live up to the hype. They should be as skilled as Heralds, or at least comparably. ... You're probably right, and I don't like it.
Trusk'our he/him Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 58 minutes ago, Duxredux said: As for the Fused, others have said good stuff but I'll add in a few things. There may be setbacks due to the nature of their serial reincarnation by taking the body of another Singer. That might reset their muscle memory, though their Surgebinding generally is top notch. Wouldn't their Surgebinding count as a form of muscle memory? I don't see how they could forget to move their body around but still remember perfectly how to use their powers. 1 hour ago, Duxredux said: I'll point out that the average age of Olympic athletes is mid to late 20's. There is variance by sport, some older, but for humans that is the prime of physical speed and power. Don't forget that Rosharans are slightly older than on paper due to their calendar system. Kaladin is a little over 24 Earth years old, if I'm correct. That still puts him at an enormous disadvantage in terms of experience against any Fused, yet he still consistently beats them. 1 hour ago, Duxredux said: But yeah, I agree, the stakes in SA are weird and the Fused don't really add that much tension with so much healing available. It feels pretty heavily that for someone to die the wavy dagger of plot and treachery must have their name on it and a lot of things need to conspire to make it happen. Yeah, that's kind of how I feel about them honestly. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Taln is too, and yet he caught 2 darts with incredible speed - skills that Fused are lacking after the same time spent at fighting. That's something else that's really bothered me; how is it that the Heralds are so skilled compared to the Fused?
therunner he/him Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Coppermind says that Full Lashing can last longer if more Stormlight is pour into it. That's why I'm asking. That assumption is ambiguous at best - in case of Mistborn it is simple, every power they have is fueled by different metal, they just got 1h of every metal. But Radiants fuel everything with Stormlight. What is an hour of fight? Using basic lashings for 1h at 10g? Reverse lashing everything for 1h? Or whatever we imagine Windrunners are capable of doing in 1h is possible for them to do? In that case they can just lift a plateau from the Shattered Plains and drop them at Seers at 30% of the speed of light - all that in 1h so by this assumption they have light to do it. That's why I can't wait for Brandon to standardize units of investiture, then we can just say "they have 10 units of investiture" and know how much investiture each power and surge is using. Well, if we assume one side can use their powers non-stop for hour (Seer) fair assumption is that the other side can do the same. So squires have enough Stormlight to be lashed at several lashings, to cover large surfaces in Full Lashing for minutes at a time etc. But, yeah, I agree we need precise measurement. Seer's use Solid Investiture (well, alloy), so plausibly hour of atium burning is human sized sack worth of spheres, since Solid Investiture is the most dense form 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Let me clarify - Seer sees the rusting future! In melee combat there is no way for a Windrunner to defeat him. Period. Yes there is, just use attacks that target large areas, so Seer cannot dodge them. Or limit their options, like with using Full Lashiing to restrict their movement. Seer's are still human. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: And I really would love to have a chapter and quote of Full Lashing applied from a distance - I don't remember it at all. Don't have books on hand, but Szeth does it few times, and Kaladin in RoW infuses large areas at once, including by 'throwing' Stormlight away from himself. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Even when Seer somehow got their feet glued to the ground - he still has a sword to block every Windrunner's attack, he'll be fine, unless several of them at once starts to attack him (which would be not happening, as both sides have equal numbers and they would engage in 1 on 1 honorable combat, as seen in RoW). Two are enough, Seer cannot defend both from front and back. And if enough Seer's are immobilized, Windrunner can gang up. And Seer cannot block stone lashed at their feet, and dont have A-pewter to resist pain, so that is viable tactic. Windrunners engage in 'honoroble' 1 on 1 combat solely to survive Kaladin literally says that duels benefit them, and he wants them to continue as long as possible so they don't lose people. Windrunner would absolutely kill you in non-duel (see, well everyother fight they are in that is not with Honorable ones). Seer's were dying even against Koloss, and even prior to running out of Atium (if I remember right), they are not unstoppable by someone without future sight. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Atium has an Atium Shadow... Shardplate has one too. Shardblade will have it as well, Full and Reverse Lashings are therefore very likely to have one as well. Atium is also not pure Godemetal, and can be pushed/pulled, so it is considerably different from Shardplate/Shardblade. But thank you on WoB on Shardplate, that is indisputable But Reverse lashing they will only see it is applied to some surface, they won't be able to see what it effects, nor what its range is. They cannot protect against that at all. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: 50 vs 50. Windrunners in RoW are fighting 1 on 1. You can't really take 2 vs 1, without a second Seer coming and helping or attacking a different pair overwhelming a single squire. Not so easy. Addressed above, Windrunners are doing those duels only because it is advantageous to them. And you can take 2 vs 1 if you establish Full Lashing perimeter, which second Seer cannot traverse. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Their spear will get splintered into pieces by impact. And so will Seer's ankles, which is quite painful. And while they are out of it because of pain, just stab them with dagger. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Why not? As long as Seer sees that this won't result in him getting hurt, he can - which would happen everytime, as he can stab and dodge incoming attacks at the same time. He sees the future. But Seer cannot see their own future. If all Windrunner does is stumble a bit because body is now impaled on their weapon, all Seer sees is Windrunner stumbling, and maybe that they have some Investiture in their hand. In this tactic, Windrunner does not move at all, it is Seer that moves. And since Seer does not see their own shadows, they cannot properly react to it. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Second Battle of Ypres - Apr 22, 1915 – May 25, 1915 - first use of toxic gas, total allied casualties - 80k. Probably should have specified, battle with medieval armies Quote The effect of Nightblood during that battle was devastating - it was used for more than just a last resort.  Reveal hidden contents Brandon Sanderson Lightsong Sees the Painting of the Red Battle This is our first major clue (though a subtle one at the same time) that there might be something to the religion of the Iridescent Tones. Lightsong does see something in this painting that an ordinary person wouldn't be able to. A well-crafted piece of art, made by a person channeling the Tones and connected to them via Breath, can speak to a Returned. Now, in this case, it doesn't work quite like Llarimar says it does—Lightsong doesn't actually prophesy about the black sword in the way the priest thinks. In other words, Lightsong isn't prophesying that he'll see the Black Sword (Nightblood) in the day's activities. Instead, Lightsong is seeing an image of a previous war, which is prophetic in that another Manywar is brewing—and in both cases, Nightblood will be important to the outcome of the battle. The person Lightsong sees in the abstract painting is Shashara, Denth's sister, one of the Five Scholars and a Returned also known as Glorysinger by the Cult of the Returned. She is seen here in Lightsong's vision as she's drawing Nightblood at the battle of Twilight Falls. It's the only time the sword was drawn in battle, and Vasher was horrified by the result. It's because of her insistence on using the sword in battle, and on giving away the secret to creating more, that Vasher and she fought. He ended up killing her with Nightblood, which they'd created together during the days they were in love—he married her a short time before their falling out. That marriage ended with him slaying his own wife to keep her from creating more abominations like Nightblood and loosing them upon the world. Nightblood is part of a much larger story in this world. He's dropped casually into this particular book, more as a side note than a real focus of what's going on, but his own role in the world is much, much larger than his supporting part here would indicate. Warbreaker Annotations (Nov. 16, 2010) That WoB does not say anything about how Nightblood was used in the battle. Quote Taln is too, and yet he caught 2 darts with incredible speed - skills that Fused are lacking after the same time spent at fighting. Heralds are also clearly on another level in general (10 of them vs however many Fused), and Taln seems to be step above other Heralds.  Quote Do you mean the teenager who literally had to call upon deus ex machina to beat him, and who had had her mentor's steps to bring down said frickn' Fullborn guided by an ancient super-intellect that had a thousand years to do nothing but scheme? Just saying, I don't really think of those situations in the same light, but I suppose that could just be my opinion. Quote He lost literally to deus ex machina! Preservation's Chosen One! Not a teenager but the Vessel for Mists! Hard to win against someone that starts drinking moisture from the air which gives her power and strength. Yeah, that is my point If you strip away all the context it sounds dumb, just like saying Fused are being defeated by a bunch teenagers lacks a lot of context. Not to mention, we don't yet have end to the first arc, so there can still be revelations happening as to why are current Radiants so proficient despite lacking teachers (Honor lives in heart of men anyone?). 43 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: Wouldn't their Surgebinding count as a form of muscle memory? I don't see how they could forget to move their body around but still remember perfectly how to use their powers. Have you tried to pick up some sport you were pretty good at after not doing it for a few years? Fused are that times a literal thousand. 43 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: Kaladin is a little over 24 Earth years old, if I'm correct. That still puts him at an enormous disadvantage in terms of experience against any Fused, yet he still consistently beats them. And Vin is not even 20, and beats far more experienced Mistborn left and right, a few Inquisitors and two gods for good measure. We are reading about exceptional individuals, not your run of the mill people. 43 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: That's something else that's really bothered me; how is it that the Heralds are so skilled compared to the Fused? They were made with more care? Odium does not seem to care too much about his servants, but Honor used to. Plus 10 Heralds plus human kingdoms (sometimes in literal stone age) were able to stand against Thunderclasts, Unmade, Fused, Regals and Singers. By all we know Heralds must be far more powerful than run of the mill Fused, they are more on the powerlevel of Unmade if anything. Fused and Heralds never were on the same level, and were not meant to be. Edited May 11, 2023 by therunner
Frustration Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 3 hours ago, alder24 said: And I really would love to have a chapter and quote of Full Lashing applied from a distance - I don't remember it at all. WoKÂ 716, sorry I don't have the chapter, I'll try and get it later.
alder24 Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 11 minutes ago, therunner said: Seer's were dying even against Koloss, and even prior to running out of Atium (if I remember right), they are not unstoppable by someone without future sight. They were, but they've killed a lot of them before and were overwhelmed by their numbers. 12 minutes ago, therunner said: But Reverse lashing they will only see it is applied to some surface, they won't be able to see what it effects, nor what its range is. They cannot protect against that at all. I agree. 12 minutes ago, therunner said: And so will Seer's ankles, which is quite painful. And while they are out of it because of pain, just stab them with dagger. You know, there is a simple, basic piece of equipment of every soldier that will protect them - a shield. 14 minutes ago, therunner said: But Seer cannot see their own future. If all Windrunner does is stumble a bit because body is now impaled on their weapon, all Seer sees is Windrunner stumbling, and maybe that they have some Investiture in their hand. In this tactic, Windrunner does not move at all, it is Seer that moves. And since Seer does not see their own shadows, they cannot properly react to it. But they see Windrunner raising their hand and moving it to the place where Seer would be - they can understand that with Atium. Or they see their weapons moving in the place where Seer would be. Easily avoidable. Don't commit to the attack if you see them stabbing you back. 16 minutes ago, therunner said: Probably should have specified, battle with medieval armies The Greek Fire used since 672, from Wikipedia: Quote Greek fire proper, however, was developed in c. 672 and is ascribed by the chronicler Theophanes the Confessor to Kallinikos (Latinized Callinicus), an architect from Heliopolis in the former province of Phoenice, by then overrun by the Muslim conquests:       At that time Kallinikos, an artificer from Heliopolis, fled to the Romans. He had devised a sea fire which ignited the Arab ships and burned them with all hands. Thus it        was that the Romans returned with victory and discovered the sea fire. 1241 Battle of Legnica - Jan Długosz claims that during this battle Mongols used some form of poisonous gas "they were shaking head on a pike which produced some form of gas with a great smell that cause Pules to faint and were unable to fight". 1346 Siege of Caffa - Mongols throwing plague-infected bodies into the city, which started the Black Death in Europe. 38 minutes ago, therunner said: That WoB does not say anything about how Nightblood was used in the battle. It states that it was used and it horrified Vasher that he decided to kill his beloved wife. That's enough for me.  39 minutes ago, Frustration said: WoK 716, sorry I don't have the chapter, I'll try and get it later. I was excited, because I have WoK in English, but this page describes Kal waking up after being hung on Highstorm...
Frustration Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 21 minutes ago, alder24 said: I was excited, because I have WoK in English, but this page describes Kal waking up after being hung on Highstorm... Hmm, I'll have to check later today, it would be unforunate if my notes were incorrect. Â For the moment however it's enough that Full lashings can expand outward from the one creating them, OB chapter 64 Quote Dalinar shouted, and Stormlight shimmered along the stones before him. Those who hadn't gotten caught up in the fighting jumped back. The rest got caught in the stormlight, which glued them to the ground. Â 1
therunner he/him Posted May 12, 2023 Posted May 12, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, alder24 said: They were, but they've killed a lot of them before and were overwhelmed by their numbers. Yeah, but Koloss don't fight smart, don't have Invested powers and don't heal. 15 hours ago, alder24 said: You know, there is a simple, basic piece of equipment of every soldier that will protect them - a shield. Which can be taken away by simple Reverse Lashing. Any piece of equipment that is not aluminum can and will be taken away from Seer. So if they have shield, first take it away, then proceed to break ankles. Thinking about it, Seers are basically limited to non-metal weapons (and that assumes they must have prepared before hand). If they used regular weapons/shields, they would be without them about 10 seconds after start of battle. Good luck blocking deadly blow from a spear or sword with bare hands. 15 hours ago, alder24 said: But they see Windrunner raising their hand and moving it to the place where Seer would be - they can understand that with Atium. Or they see their weapons moving in the place where Seer would be. Easily avoidable. Don't commit to the attack if you see them stabbing you back. Why would Windrunner raise hand? They hold sword/spear in front, and infuse the sword/spear with Reverse Lashing (or at least the handle). No need to raise hand or anything. And again, they don't move it to where Seer would be, they hold it in front of them, and use Reverse Lashing to possibly drag Seer into it. 15 hours ago, alder24 said: The Greek Fire used since 672, from Wikipedia: 1241 Battle of Legnica - Jan Długosz claims that during this battle Mongols used some form of poisonous gas "they were shaking head on a pike which produced some form of gas with a great smell that cause Pules to faint and were unable to fight". 1346 Siege of Caffa - Mongols throwing plague-infected bodies into the city, which started the Black Death in Europe. Greek fire and poisonous gas I grant you, thought those cannot be wielded by a single person But throwing plague infected bodies is not a WMD. 15 hours ago, alder24 said: It states that it was used and it horrified Vasher that he decided to kill his beloved wife. That's enough for me. Yeah, but my point is, we don't know how it was used. Did she pull it out because they were loosing, and kill a thousand soldiers in ten minutes? Did she run around for full fight? We don't know. But we know that Nightblood eats a lot of Investiture, and he eats more the longer he is drawn. Solely based on that, she probably could not have kept it drawn for hours on end. Also, Vasher did not kill her just because he was horrified of what Nightblood and Shashara did, but because of what they did and because she wanted to share knowledge of how to make weapons like Nightblood. Basically, his reason was less 'holy-expletive that was horrifying' and more 'holy-expletive this cannot be allowed to get into anyone's hands', sort of nuclear Non-Proliferation argument. Edited May 12, 2023 by therunner
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