Heilven he/him Posted May 6, 2023 Posted May 6, 2023 Okay, I got to thinking these past couple of days, and I had an idea for what kind of extra power could be given to a 5th ideal windrunner. Although I will first need to explain my theory of adhesion. Adhesion stands out among the surges, for a few reasons. Obviously, it's Honor's truest surge. The fused don't see it as a surge, rather as something very specific to Honor. I don't think this is true, seeing as the surges predate honor and cultivation, and the number 10 shows up too often in rosharan ecology to be created by honor, but I digress. Adhesion is also said to come in two forms, "spiritual" and "physical". Bondsmiths get spiritual adhesion, and Windrunners get physical adhesion. Except that's not true, since in Oathbringer, Dalinar is clearly shown to be able to use adhesion in the same way that Windrunners can, minus the reverse lashing of course. He can stick rocks to walls just fine, and can even likely use a full lashing. So I think that adhesion is really just connection. The ability to manipulate connection. Specifically meaning connecting and potentially disconnecting things on a spiritual, cosmere level. It would make sense for this to be Honor's truest surge, as he's all about bonds and connection. Odium wouldn't want to give this surge to his fused, as it would be far, far too powerful. A fused with connection might be able to connect themselves to honor instead of odium, essentially freeing themselves. And I think this clearly lines up with what we see in the text in terms of ability. Dalinar connects things together, that's his job. "Physical" adhesion, under this framework, is essentially just telling an object "oh hey, this is part of you. Both of you are strongly connected" and so they stick together for a while. I also argue that windrunners having extra squires isn't due to their resonance power, and is entirely due to the surge of adhesion, granting them connections to the people around them far more easily. Obviously all radiants have some connection shenanigans, but that's likely just due to the nature of spren bonding, which goes beyond radiants and permeates all creatures on roshar. So, if adhesion is just connection, where does that lead to the fifth ideal. I think that if 5th ideal windrunners get any sort of extra power, it's an enhancement to their resonance power, the reverse lashing. The reverse lashing is clearly the real resonance ability, as is stated in ROW. The reverse lashing connects objects at a distance to an object of your choice, telling them to be gravitationally attracted to it. I think the clear way to improve this is to cut out the specific object of attraction. Consider mistborn's iron and steel. It grants the ability to connect yourself to things around you at a distance, and push and pull on them. The blue lines that make up steel and iron sight are connection lines, as indicated by what Dalinar sees in ROW. I think that it makes sense for a 5th ideal windrunner to be granted that sort of sight, and be able to lash at a distance, through the same mechanism as iron and steel sight. Doing so would likely be difficult, and would almost certainly require you to command the object, unlike the flexibility you have when touching the object in question. I think this represents a clear use of the systems involved, as well as what I think is a natural step up in power. It's definitely very powerful, but I think limiting it with specific command helps to balance out that power increase. I also think that it is narratively satisfying, given the extra attention that has been given to adhesion and resonance powers in ROW. I of course present this as a potential option, as I don't think it's a given, or that it is the only possible increase. The natural answer of "perfect stormlight retention" is also plenty likely in my opinion. I just wanted to present this as an option as I have been thinking about it. I also don't know how controversial my theory of adhesion is. It might already be taken as a given for most people, I haven't really seen any discussion about that. Anyway, feel free to tell me what you think 2
Frustration Posted May 8, 2023 Posted May 8, 2023 So, why do you believe that each order would have a different fifth ideal bonus instead of them all having the same one that we've seen previously in Shardblade and plate?
Heilven he/him Posted May 8, 2023 Author Posted May 8, 2023 9 hours ago, Frustration said: So, why do you believe that each order would have a different fifth ideal bonus instead of them all having the same one that we've seen previously in Shardblade and plate? I mean, besides the fact that we already have 2 examples that go against this. Skybreakers don't get division until third ideal, and obviously lightweavers have their own weirdness. With how much more individual the oaths become as they advance, why shouldn't the last be completely individual. Besides, why can't the extra ability at 5th ideal for all radiants be an increase to their resonance abilities? I feel like that makes plenty of sense. We also know that high level abilities require specific command, which implies new magical ability, not something physical like shardblades or plate.
alder24 Posted May 9, 2023 Posted May 9, 2023 On 6.05.2023 at 8:29 PM, Heilven said: Bondsmiths get spiritual adhesion, and Windrunners get physical adhesion. Except that's not true, since in Oathbringer, Dalinar is clearly shown to be able to use adhesion in the same way that Windrunners can, minus the reverse lashing of course. He can stick rocks to walls just fine, and can even likely use a full lashing. It was never said that Bondsmith can't use Adhesion in the same way as Windrunners do. On 6.05.2023 at 8:29 PM, Heilven said: I also argue that windrunners having extra squires isn't due to their resonance power, and is entirely due to the surge of adhesion, granting them connections to the people around them far more easily. That's the connection I've never made. Good one. I like that explanation. On 6.05.2023 at 8:29 PM, Heilven said: Odium wouldn't want to give this surge to his fused, as it would be far, far too powerful. A fused with connection might be able to connect themselves to honor instead of odium, essentially freeing themselves. Odium could do what Honor did and bind the surge of Adhesion to prevent this from happening and limit its power. That's not the reason why Fused don't have Adhesion. Additionally, Yelig-Nar might have Adhesion, as he was said to have all 10 Surges. On 6.05.2023 at 8:29 PM, Heilven said: So, if adhesion is just connection, where does that lead to the fifth ideal. I think that if 5th ideal windrunners get any sort of extra power, it's an enhancement to their resonance power, the reverse lashing. The reverse lashing is clearly the real resonance ability, as is stated in ROW. The reverse lashing connects objects at a distance to an object of your choice, telling them to be gravitationally attracted to it. I think the clear way to improve this is to cut out the specific object of attraction. Reverse Lashing, while technically a resonance, is not THE resonance of Windrunners - that's the increased number of squires. At 3rd Ideal it is already quite powerful, allowing for decapitation of Fused. However Windrunners from 3rd Ideal upwards, begin to get more and more accustomed to their ability to change pressure, which is also Adhesion. I think this is the Adhesion that will get "stronger" or more intuitive for Windrunners. Also keep in mind Windrunners don't really have limitations of when they can learn or use their powers. With more Oaths sweared they just gets better at it, more efficient and those powers are more intuitive to them - that's what I think will happen, they won't get any new power, they just get better at what they already have, more efficient and using those powers will be more intuitive for them. I highly doubt they will be able to reverse lash at distance - there is nothing that could suggest this, nothing that foreshadowed this.
Frustration Posted May 9, 2023 Posted May 9, 2023 15 hours ago, Heilven said: I mean, besides the fact that we already have 2 examples that go against this. Skybreakers don't get division until third ideal, and obviously lightweavers have their own weirdness. With how much more individual the oaths become as they advance, why shouldn't the last be completely individual. It's not Skybreakers, but Division, Dustrbingers also don't have it to start with, and Lightweavers aren't weird at all, blade at third oath, Plate at forth. 15 hours ago, Heilven said: We also know that high level abilities require specific command, which implies new magical ability, not something physical like shardblades or plate. All orders aside from Skybreakers and Dustbirngers have access to all of their powers from Oath 1. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Dustbringer I will seek self-mastery Dustbringer oaths were themed toward responsibility. They were led to understand that the powers they used needed to be properly channeled, much as their own desires and wills needed proper form and shape. As a Dustbringer moved through the oaths, they were taught greater powers of destruction—and are one of the only orders where their abilities weren’t all available at the beginning, but instead were delivered slowly, as they made the proper oaths. Each oath led to a greater understanding of power, the nature of holding it, and the associated responsibility. Dustbringers—though they sometimes objected to the common name for their order, preferring instead to be called Releasers—are living contradictions among the Knights Radiant. They believe great power requires a strong will to control it. They often attract tinkerers who like to dig down into the shape and soul of a thing, break it, and see what makes it work. However, their oaths are themed toward control—that they need to be able to control, contain, and channel the terrible power inside them. They tend to object to those who focus only on their destructive sides, as they argue that in order to create, one must understand the pieces of the thing they are trying to make. They don’t see themselves as being about destruction—though their powers are the most destructive of any order of Knights Radiant. They instead see their nature as being about control, precision, and understanding. In the Knights Radiant, they tend to act as the equivalent of artillery in a modern army. If you want a large swath of land destroyed or burned, you call in the Dustbringers. However, they were also often used as sappers, engineers, and strategists. They attract anyone who likes to take things apart, who likes to know how things work. They also attract those who are a little foolhardy at times—brave soldiers who see themselves as containing and controlling terrible destruction so it won’t get out of hand and hurt innocents. The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020) 15 hours ago, Heilven said: Besides, why can't the extra ability at 5th ideal for all radiants be an increase to their resonance abilities? I feel like that makes plenty of sense. Well for starters Resonances aren't powers, they are effects, so no @alder24 a reverse lashing is not a resonance. Quote “The effects here are more subtle than they are when mixing Surges on Roshar, but I am convinced that each unique combination also creates something distinctive. Not just two powers, you could say, but two powers … and an effect. This demands further study. ” —Khriss.[1] Spoiler Argent There is a person on the forums who noticed that Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah seems to have a really powerful, kind of, geolocation thing going on, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on? Brandon Sanderson There is something supernatural going on. Each Order... Well, how about this. If you look at the scholar interpretations, there are some scholars who think that these things are not supernatural, in the past, and some who said they definitely are. But many, if you look, many Lightweavers had powerful mnemonic abilities. Argent So it's definitely tied to the Orders? Brandon Sanderson It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with Order, things that do not add up from simple the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires... is abnormal for the Windrunners. Argent And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'? Brandon Sanderson Yeeeaaaah... some Orders don't have them, [that] is the difference. Argent But some have more? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)
alder24 Posted May 9, 2023 Posted May 9, 2023 3 minutes ago, Frustration said: Well for starters Resonances aren't powers, they are effects, so no @alder24 a reverse lashing is not a resonance. That's why I said reverse lashing isn't THE Resonance, but it came from 2 powers merging and interacting together, Adhesion and Gravitation. That's why, by words of this WoB below, one can call reverse lashing some sort of resonance, for lack of better words, but it isn't the resonance we're talking about, which I pointed out. 1 word with 2 definitions. Spoiler [...] Brandon Sanderson [...] The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. [...] Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016) Spoiler Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The "perks" ("secondary effect born with interaction between powers") also has not a 100% sure name, but the main one at the moment is resonances....We will discovered a lot of the in the third trilogy where the Scientific Method would be applied to the magic. Lucca Comics and Games Festival (Oct. 28, 2016)
Frustration Posted May 9, 2023 Posted May 9, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, alder24 said: That's why I said reverse lashing isn't THE Resonance, but it came from 2 powers merging and interacting together, Adhesion and Gravitation. That's why, by words of this WoB below, one can call reverse lashing some sort of resonance, for lack of better words, but it isn't the resonance we're talking about, which I pointed out. 1 word with 2 definitions. Reveal hidden contents [...] Brandon Sanderson [...] The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. [...] Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016) Reveal hidden contents Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The "perks" ("secondary effect born with interaction between powers") also has not a 100% sure name, but the main one at the moment is resonances....We will discovered a lot of the in the third trilogy where the Scientific Method would be applied to the magic. Lucca Comics and Games Festival (Oct. 28, 2016) Oh, the other resonance, my bad. Would it surprise you to learn that this is not the first time this confusion has happened in my conversations? Edited May 9, 2023 by Frustration 1
alder24 Posted May 9, 2023 Posted May 9, 2023 Just now, Frustration said: Oh, the other resonance, my bad. Would it surprise you to learn that this is not the first time this confusion has happened in my conversations? Not at all
Heilven he/him Posted May 9, 2023 Author Posted May 9, 2023 10 hours ago, alder24 said: Odium could do what Honor did and bind the surge of Adhesion to prevent this from happening and limit its power. That's not the reason why Fused don't have Adhesion. Additionally, Yelig-Nar might have Adhesion, as he was said to have all 10 Surges I just gave one example, but essentially I still think that adhesion is far too powerful for odium to consider giving to any of his slaves fused. If it truly allows you to manipulate connection, there's a ton you can do. I also don't necessarily think that odium could have bound the surge. I think the thing bounding adhesion has always been the oaths, because I don't think honor and cultivation have control over adhesion the way they do with the other surges. This gets into the nature of surges, but I truly think adhesion is just manipulating connection, and is very different from the other surges. The fused certainly seem to think of it as not being a true surge, and I think that goes beyond just cope that odium doesn't allow it. Besides, I think that binding adhesion to make it safe would make it generally useless. He would have to risk his fused potentially finding a loophole and screwing him over. Also, Yelig-Nar is said to have all surges by this quote: Quote Yelig-nar had great powers, perhaps the powers of all Surges compounded in one. He could transform any Voidbringer into an extremely dangerous enemy. Curiously, three legends I found mention swallowing a gemstone to engage this process. Curiously, it does not give a number. So I'm either way on this one. It feels a bit contradictory for the fused to reject adhesion as a surge, while accepting that an unmade regularly grants it. 10 hours ago, alder24 said: Reverse Lashing, while technically a resonance, is not THE resonance of Windrunners - that's the increased number of squires. At 3rd Ideal it is already quite powerful, allowing for decapitation of Fused. So I always see the resonance given as "an increased number of squires" but the wob: Quote ZenBossanova (paraphrased) Since Shallan has a unique ability of memory from her blended surges, is fighting what Kaladin has? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) No. His unique ability is "strength of squires". ZenBossanova (paraphrased) And Jasnah? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) RAFO. Firefight Phoenix signing (Jan. 21, 2015) Gives it as "strength of squires". Is this clarified somewhere? Because to me that sounds like he means that the squires are more able to use their abilities.(I read the wob posted y frustration earlier, I see why it's generally referred to as an increase to number of squires. Still seems to be missing the key detail in that the squires themselves are more powerful) Anyway, I really don't like that as the resonance ability. I accept it as true, but it just doesn't make sense. How does increased strength/number of squires come about by a combination of adhesion and gravitation? It just seems far more likely that the ability would just come from a natural use of adhesion rather than a usage of both surges. I recognize that now I'm fighting with Sanderson himself, but I just really don't like that. For me, reverse lashing seems much more in line with the definition of a resonance. It's not just a full lashing + a basic lashing, it's creating a gravitational connection field around an object. Yet it is still a clear use of both abilities, manifesting itself as something different. I also don't mean to say that the resonance will literally get more powerful, obviously it is already quite powerful. More that the power might manifest itself differently, possibly with an expansion of what Windrunners can naturally do with adhesion. I'm imagining it as seeing connection lines pointing towards objects close to you, and connecting yourself to those objects in order to deliver a lashing. This wouldn't be reverse lashing at a distance, but basic lashing at a distance. I'm not willing to claim that this definitely will happen, and I certainly don't have my hopes going for it. I think that radiants just getting "better" at 5th ideal is anticlimactic. Every step we have seen so far is a large boost in power and ability, so to just have a moderate boost in power for the final and most difficult oath just feels wrong to me. Not to say that this is the only possible option, I just thought of it and figured it could be possible. It does feel very windrunner specific, but I think there could be nuance that we just can't see yet. Maybe lightweavers get the "soulcast lightweavings" ability that everyone has talked about so much, although I'd also be willing to believe they can just do that. With the exploration of the reverse lashing in rhythm of war, it seems like we will get more in that direction. I think windrunners definitely see adhesion as weaker than gravitation, and using surges together is certainly bound to make them more powerful. That's the whole reason the radiants are so much more powerful in the first place
a Faceless Immortal he/him Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 2 hours ago, Heilven said: Gives it as "strength of squires". Is this clarified somewhere? Because to me that sounds like he means that the squires are more able to use their abilities.(I read the wob posted y frustration earlier, I see why it's generally referred to as an increase to number of squires. He could be referring to an 'increased strength of squires' as in 'a force of fifty strong,' where the strength is in the number of members. I think this could be a reasonable, if somewhat obscure reading, especially since we are talking about 'Kaladin's Squires' as a unit. Alternatively it could be that Windrunner squires simply advance faster; that would make the people around him begin to display abilities faster, and progress through their abilities quicker, hence the average Windrunner squire would be stronger than the average Skybreaker squire for example (They do have squires, right?).
Heilven he/him Posted May 10, 2023 Author Posted May 10, 2023 1 minute ago, a Faceless Immortal said: He could be referring to an 'increased strength of squires' as in 'a force of fifty strong,' where the strength is in the number of members. I think this could be a reasonable, if somewhat obscure reading, especially since we are talking about 'Kaladin's Squires' as a unit. Alternatively it could be that Windrunner squires simply advance faster; that would make the people around him begin to display abilities faster, and progress through their abilities quicker, hence the average Windrunner squire would be stronger than the average Skybreaker squire for example (They do have squires, right?). Yeah, that's a totally reasonable interpretation. I just went on a rabbit hole earlier trying to figure out if he really referred to it as the windrunner resonance, and never bothered to just click on the wob frustration linked lol
alder24 Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 11 hours ago, Heilven said: I just gave one example, but essentially I still think that adhesion is far too powerful for odium to consider giving to any of his slaves fused. If it truly allows you to manipulate connection, there's a ton you can do. I also don't necessarily think that odium could have bound the surge. I think the thing bounding adhesion has always been the oaths, because I don't think honor and cultivation have control over adhesion the way they do with the other surges. They have control over Surges, Honor did chained all Surges after Ashyn destruction, specifically Bondsmithing. RoW ch 66: Quote The Stormfather rumbled in the back of his mind. I was not certain it could be done, he said. The power of Bondsmiths was tempered by Honor, for the good of all. Ever since the destruction of Ashyn. RoW ch 111: Quote Yes. He tried to steal our bond. It should not be possible, but Honor no longer lives to enforce his laws.... [...] The powers of a Bondsmith are the powers of creation, the Stormfather said. The powers of gods, including the ability to link souls. Always before, Honor was here to guard this power, to limit it. It seems that Ishar knows how to make full use of his new freedom. Shards have some power and influence over their invested art, not full power, but enough to change it a little and limit it. Odium would be able to do that as well if he could grant Adhesion to Fused. It's the same like Preservation changing the rules of Allomancy to swap 2 base metals with Atium and Malatium - Shards didn't create their invested arts, those came from interactions between Shards and the planet, but they can influence it a little. I'm not so sure if somebody only with Adhesion would be able to manipulate connections like Bondsmiths. Bondsmiths need a massive god spren and have also the surge of Tension as well. 12 hours ago, Heilven said: The fused certainly seem to think of it as not being a true surge, and I think that goes beyond just cope that odium doesn't allow it. They're biased: Spoiler LettersWords The Fused only use nine of the Surges (they don't use Adhesion), and Raboniel describes Adhesion as "not a true Surge." Does this mean, in its original form on Ashyn, Surgebinding had no equivalent to Adhesion, and it was created by Honor later? Brandon Sanderson That is a valid way of theorizing, and I would encourage you to go that direction. Raboniel is biased. So take those two sentences as separate things. Do be aware she is very, very biased, but also your theorizing could bear fruit going that direction. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) 12 hours ago, Heilven said: Besides, I think that binding adhesion to make it safe would make it generally useless. He would have to risk his fused potentially finding a loophole and screwing him over. They're now more like a spren, serving his will, fueled by his Light - if Odium limits spiritual Adhesion in a way to prevent them from touching bonds with him or Shards, they can't really find a loophole. 12 hours ago, Heilven said: Also, Yelig-Nar is said to have all surges by this quote: Quote Yelig-nar had great powers, perhaps the powers of all Surges compounded in one. He could transform any Voidbringer into an extremely dangerous enemy. Curiously, three legends I found mention swallowing a gemstone to engage this process. Curiously, it does not give a number. So I'm either way on this one. It feels a bit contradictory for the fused to reject adhesion as a surge, while accepting that an unmade regularly grants it. The text was written by humans, it's likely counting all 10 Surges - which doesn't mean Yelig-Nar has access to spiritual Adhesion as well - Amaram didn't use it at all. 12 hours ago, Heilven said: Gives it as "strength of squires". Is this clarified somewhere? Yes, the WoB posted by Frustration. It's the number of squires. They might be also stronger than other squires as WoB suggests. 12 hours ago, Heilven said: Anyway, I really don't like that as the resonance ability. I accept it as true, but it just doesn't make sense. How does increased strength/number of squires come about by a combination of adhesion and gravitation? It just seems far more likely that the ability would just come from a natural use of adhesion rather than a usage of both surges. I recognize that now I'm fighting with Sanderson himself, but I just really don't like that. For me, reverse lashing seems much more in line with the definition of a resonance. It's not just a full lashing + a basic lashing, it's creating a gravitational connection field around an object. Yet it is still a clear use of both abilities, manifesting itself as something different. I also don't mean to say that the resonance will literally get more powerful, obviously it is already quite powerful. More that the power might manifest itself differently, possibly with an expansion of what Windrunners can naturally do with adhesion. I'm imagining it as seeing connection lines pointing towards objects close to you, and connecting yourself to those objects in order to deliver a lashing. This wouldn't be reverse lashing at a distance, but basic lashing at a distance. Resonances are mostly unknown to us. We know only about Windrunners and Lightweavers resonances and nothing else in the entire Cosmere. Read again post by Frustration and quotes there: Quote “The effects here are more subtle than they are when mixing Surges on Roshar, but I am convinced that each unique combination also creates something distinctive. Not just two powers, you could say, but two powers … and an effect. This demands further study. ” —Khriss.[1] Quote Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The "perks" ("secondary effect born with interaction between powers") also has not a 100% sure name, but the main one at the moment is resonances....We will discovered a lot of the in the third trilogy where the Scientific Method would be applied to the magic. Lucca Comics and Games Festival (Oct. 28, 2016) It's not as simple as Gravitation+Adhesion=Reverse Lashing or something like that. It's more subtle, more focused on a person rather than just powers. What is a resonance by definition? "the quality or state of being resonant. : a reinforcement of sound (as a musical tone) in a vibrating body or system caused by waves from another body vibrating at nearly the same rate." Reverse Lashing doesn't fit that definition - it's just another power, that has nothing to do with a body. But when a Windrunner is "hit" by a tone of Gravitation and tone of Adhesion, he vibrates with both of those tones, combining them into a single tone (tones, rhythms, vibrations - not powers). His body, his spirit, resonates with a new tone that creates some new effects, new sound. The new tone isn't the same as the tone of Gravitation or Adhesion, it's something new, created by a combination of those two tones. It's like a Windrunner is a tuning fork, and both Adhesion and Gravitation are also vibrating tuning forks, which creates an interference pattern, and a Windrunner is tuned to that pattern, resonating with it. Tbf I don't really know what I'm writing here anymore, but I imagine it working somewhat like that. Radiant is resonating with a new tone, which creates some effect on him and others close to him, rather than just giving him a new power. That's the resonance that we're talking about. Resonance which is the effect, not power. Spoiler Questioner I was wondering, with resonance. Is that a sort of constructive interference? Brandon Sanderson Constructed? No. Resonance is more about the way-- It's more of a natural interference. Questioner So what I mean like, you have two waves, right? And if their troughs, you know-- Brandon Sanderson Okay, is that the formal term? For the constructed.-- Oh constructive? I thought you had said-- yeah. So yes, I would say that that is an accurate phrase. I mean obviously it's not exactly the same thing. But yeah, that's what I was looking at when I was building it, was kinda things like this with waveform patterns and whatnot. So yes. At least, it was inspired by this kind of idea. Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017) But reverse lashing is born between 2 powers merging together, which isn't the resonance we're talking about. Different orders have a bit different use of their powers, because their powers work together in a different way. We need Brandon to start writing about this to clear the confusion. 12 hours ago, Heilven said: I'm imagining it as seeing connection lines pointing towards objects close to you, and connecting yourself to those objects in order to deliver a lashing. Seeing the connection lines was likely only possible because of Honor's death and loosening of bonds he placed upon Surgebinding. It wasn't something that Bondsmiths of the past were capable of (probably). RoW ch 66: Quote He could see something extending from the soldier, radiating into the darkness. Pure white lines, thin as a hair. Some moved, though one end remained affixed to the central point: the place where Dalinar’s finger touched the soldier’s skin. “I see them,” he whispered. “Finally.” The Stormfather rumbled in the back of his mind. I was not certain it could be done, he said. The power of Bondsmiths was tempered by Honor, for the good of all. Ever since the destruction of Ashyn. “How did you know about this ability?” Dalinar said, eyes still closed. I heard it described before I fully lived. Melishi saw these lines. “The last Bondsmith,” Dalinar said. “Before the Recreance.” The same. Honor was dying, possibly mad. 12 hours ago, Heilven said: I think that radiants just getting "better" at 5th ideal is anticlimactic. Journey before destination... It's not about their powers at the end, it's about how they will get there. Kaladin beating his depression, Shallan forgiving herself and accepting truths about her past, Szeth bringing justice to those who deserve it, Dalinar changing himself from the person he used to be to become a honorable leader Roshar needs. The final oath will for sure do something more than make them "better". Spren would be pulled closely to PR, experiencing life and emotions like humans are (as evident by Syl and Kal's 4th Oath). There will be more to the final Oath than simply Radiant getting better. 13 hours ago, Heilven said: Every step we have seen so far is a large boost in power and ability, so to just have a moderate boost in power for the final and most difficult oath just feels wrong to me. Not really, Kal's second oath didn't make him able to use Gravitation, he was able to do it before that, he just didn't know. Shallan soulcasted before using illuminations, yet she was later unable to soulcast. Lift didn't really change with her Oaths, she was Awesome from the beginning. Only Skybreakers and Dustbringers have limited access to their Surge of Division, no one else has such limits. However with every Oath they're getting more efficient with their use of Stormlight, and their powers become more intuitive to them. Shardblades and Shardplates are granted to them too, yes, but that's a physical manifestation of their spren, not their power. 13 hours ago, Heilven said: Maybe lightweavers get the "soulcast lightweavings" ability that everyone has talked about so much SHALLAN ALREDY DID THAT IN OB! 13 hours ago, Heilven said: With the exploration of the reverse lashing in rhythm of war, it seems like we will get more in that direction. I think windrunners definitely see adhesion as weaker than gravitation, and using surges together is certainly bound to make them more powerful. Yes, they underuse it. And that's the problem. They don't learn to use it, don't explore Adhesion, don't try new things with it. I doubt that with 5th Oath something new with their Surges will be unlocked to them, it's just by this time they will have so much experience with their Surges that they will just figure out new things that they can do with them, which they didn't think about earlier because they didn’t have enough practice.
Heilven he/him Posted May 10, 2023 Author Posted May 10, 2023 6 hours ago, alder24 said: They have control over Surges, Honor did chained all Surges after Ashyn destruction, specifically Bondsmithing. RoW ch 66: Quote The Stormfather rumbled in the back of his mind. I was not certain it could be done, he said. The power of Bondsmiths was tempered by Honor, for the good of all. Ever since the destruction of Ashyn. RoW ch 111: Quote Yes. He tried to steal our bond. It should not be possible, but Honor no longer lives to enforce his laws.... [...] The powers of a Bondsmith are the powers of creation, the Stormfather said. The powers of gods, including the ability to link souls. Always before, Honor was here to guard this power, to limit it. It seems that Ishar knows how to make full use of his new freedom. Shards have some power and influence over their invested art, not full power, but enough to change it a little and limit it. Odium would be able to do that as well if he could grant Adhesion to Fused. It's the same like Preservation changing the rules of Allomancy to swap 2 base metals with Atium and Malatium - Shards didn't create their invested arts, those came from interactions between Shards and the planet, but they can influence it a little. I'm not so sure if somebody only with Adhesion would be able to manipulate connections like Bondsmiths. Bondsmiths need a massive god spren and have also the surge of Tension as well. That's certainly fair. I wasn't completely sure how much ishar's "bondsmith unchained" was just due to no oaths, my memory of ROW is the most shaky. I still don't really know what someone with plain old adhesion without most of the abilities of a bondsmith would be any good for. I suppose we just won't know without more evidence of what bondsmiths are really even capable of then. 6 hours ago, alder24 said: 19 hours ago, Heilven said: The fused certainly seem to think of it as not being a true surge, and I think that goes beyond just cope that odium doesn't allow it. They're biased: Hide contents LettersWords The Fused only use nine of the Surges (they don't use Adhesion), and Raboniel describes Adhesion as "not a true Surge." Does this mean, in its original form on Ashyn, Surgebinding had no equivalent to Adhesion, and it was created by Honor later? Brandon Sanderson That is a valid way of theorizing, and I would encourage you to go that direction. Raboniel is biased. So take those two sentences as separate things. Do be aware she is very, very biased, but also your theorizing could bear fruit going that direction. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) While Raboniel is definitely biased, and we shouldn't take her words as gospel, the wob clearly indicates something fundamentally different about adhesion than the other surges. It doesn't confirm anything specific, but the general opinion of the fused is clearly meaningful here. And I feel like my point still stands, she clearly has some extra knowledge about adhesion that differentiates is besides just "odium doesn't allow it". That bias might certainly be informing her overall conclusion, but I think the general point still stands. 6 hours ago, alder24 said: 19 hours ago, Heilven said: Also, Yelig-Nar is said to have all surges by this quote: Quote Yelig-nar had great powers, perhaps the powers of all Surges compounded in one. He could transform any Voidbringer into an extremely dangerous enemy. Curiously, three legends I found mention swallowing a gemstone to engage this process. Curiously, it does not give a number. So I'm either way on this one. It feels a bit contradictory for the fused to reject adhesion as a surge, while accepting that an unmade regularly grants it. The text was written by humans, it's likely counting all 10 Surges - which doesn't mean Yelig-Nar has access to spiritual Adhesion as well - Amaram didn't use it at all The text was written by humans, but it is based on research done by others. These books are no strangers to unreliable narrators, and I wouldn't put it past humans to not even consider the idea of nine surges for the voidbringers. I definitely don't think Yelig-Nar could possibly have access to physical adhesion but not spiritual adhesion, not without a lot of fenagling from odium. The reason windrunners "only" have access to physical adhesion is due to the resonance with the surge of gravitation, affecting the way they can use both of the powers. Yelig-Nar wouldn't have that limitation, as it has access to tension, and the resonances would all cancel out. I truly don't think there is any meaningful difference between spiritual and physical adhesion, only a difference in how adhesion is used. Physical adhesion is still Connecting two objects together, just in a more physical manner. The ideas and intent of gravitation takes over a little. 6 hours ago, alder24 said: Resonances are mostly unknown to us. We know only about Windrunners and Lightweavers resonances and nothing else in the entire Cosmere. Read again post by Frustration and quotes there: Quote “The effects here are more subtle than they are when mixing Surges on Roshar, but I am convinced that each unique combination also creates something distinctive. Not just two powers, you could say, but two powers … and an effect. This demands further study. ” —Khriss.[1] Quote Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The "perks" ("secondary effect born with interaction between powers") also has not a 100% sure name, but the main one at the moment is resonances....We will discovered a lot of the in the third trilogy where the Scientific Method would be applied to the magic. Lucca Comics and Games Festival (Oct. 28, 2016) It's not as simple as Gravitation+Adhesion=Reverse Lashing or something like that. It's more subtle, more focused on a person rather than just powers. What is a resonance by definition? "the quality or state of being resonant. : a reinforcement of sound (as a musical tone) in a vibrating body or system caused by waves from another body vibrating at nearly the same rate." Reverse Lashing doesn't fit that definition - it's just another power, that has nothing to do with a body. But when a Windrunner is "hit" by a tone of Gravitation and tone of Adhesion, he vibrates with both of those tones, combining them into a single tone (tones, rhythms, vibrations - not powers). His body, his spirit, resonates with a new tone that creates some new effects, new sound. The new tone isn't the same as the tone of Gravitation or Adhesion, it's something new, created by a combination of those two tones. It's like a Windrunner is a tuning fork, and both Adhesion and Gravitation are also vibrating tuning forks, which creates an interference pattern, and a Windrunner is tuned to that pattern, resonating with it. Tbf I don't really know what I'm writing here anymore, but I imagine it working somewhat like that. Radiant is resonating with a new tone, which creates some effect on him and others close to him, rather than just giving him a new power. That's the resonance that we're talking about. Resonance which is the effect, not power. Reveal hidden contents Questioner I was wondering, with resonance. Is that a sort of constructive interference? Brandon Sanderson Constructed? No. Resonance is more about the way-- It's more of a natural interference. Questioner So what I mean like, you have two waves, right? And if their troughs, you know-- Brandon Sanderson Okay, is that the formal term? For the constructed.-- Oh constructive? I thought you had said-- yeah. So yes, I would say that that is an accurate phrase. I mean obviously it's not exactly the same thing. But yeah, that's what I was looking at when I was building it, was kinda things like this with waveform patterns and whatnot. So yes. At least, it was inspired by this kind of idea. Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017) But reverse lashing is born between 2 powers merging together, which isn't the resonance we're talking about. Different orders have a bit different use of their powers, because their powers work together in a different way. We need Brandon to start writing about this to clear the confusion. That quote by Khriss is specifically in reference to twinborn, and actually implies that resonances on Roshar are more blunt and simple. She specifically says "The effects here are more subtle than they are when mixing Surges on Roshar". Implying that the resonance effect on Roshar is far less subtle than Wax's ability to accelerate and decelerate in the air, or perhaps the resonance is even more subtle than that. You are very correct to point out that we have almost no proper examples of resonances, and that definitely makes it harder to talk about. "It's not as simple as Gravitation+Adhesion=Reverse Lashing or something like that. It's more subtle, more focused on a person rather than just powers." I think that the reverse lashing is a lot more subtle than you are making it out to be. Gravitation gives you the basic lashing, and Adhesion gives you the full lashing. Put those together, and you don't get the reverse lashing. You still get something interesting, like perhaps lashing a rock towards a group of enemies with a full lashing applied. Anyone the rock hits would be stuck to it like strong glue, pulled along with the rock. That would be really cool and useful, but it is clearly different than the reverse lashing. The reverse lashing is a usage of both gravitation and adhesion that fundamentally changes the effect of both surges. I think it's wrong to think about the reverse lashing as a separate power, it should be thought of as a mixing of two powers. I did want to talk about your idea of the tones of adhesion and gravitation mixing together to make said resonance. Firstly, I wonder if the kinetic investiture of different surges actually has different tones, I could see it either way. If they do, I think you are correct, and I've even come up with a justification for extra squires being a resonance, rather just an effect of adhesion. The intent of gravitation could be mixing with that passive adhesion, causing people to be "attracted" to him, strengthening their already existing connections. This would allow for more squires, and even potentially stronger squires. I still do think that given that you don't need the surge of adhesion or gravitation to have squires, it's a bit strange that this would be the prominent windrunner resonance. That seems to be the case though, so I'll just have to accept that. 6 hours ago, alder24 said: But reverse lashing is born between 2 powers merging together, which isn't the resonance we're talking about. Different orders have a bit different use of their powers, because their powers work together in a different way. We need Brandon to start writing about this to clear the confusion. 20 hours ago, Heilven said: I'm imagining it as seeing connection lines pointing towards objects close to you, and connecting yourself to those objects in order to deliver a lashing. Seeing the connection lines was likely only possible because of Honor's death and loosening of bonds he placed upon Surgebinding. It wasn't something that Bondsmiths of the past were capable of (probably). RoW ch 66: Quote He could see something extending from the soldier, radiating into the darkness. Pure white lines, thin as a hair. Some moved, though one end remained affixed to the central point: the place where Dalinar’s finger touched the soldier’s skin. “I see them,” he whispered. “Finally.” The Stormfather rumbled in the back of his mind. I was not certain it could be done, he said. The power of Bondsmiths was tempered by Honor, for the good of all. Ever since the destruction of Ashyn. “How did you know about this ability?” Dalinar said, eyes still closed. I heard it described before I fully lived. Melishi saw these lines. “The last Bondsmith,” Dalinar said. “Before the Recreance.” The same. Honor was dying, possibly mad. Yeah, I can accept that. Again, ROW is the book I have the least memories of for the specifics. I just can't get past the beginning Shallan chapters on reread. I'm such a hater, it's a shame. I don't think this disproves that basic lashing at a distance is impossible, just certainly not possible before the weakening of the restrictions. Which definitely stabs this theory in the heart, it's not "the thing" that you get for reaching 5th ideal. 7 hours ago, alder24 said: 20 hours ago, Heilven said: I think that radiants just getting "better" at 5th ideal is anticlimactic. Journey before destination... It's not about their powers at the end, it's about how they will get there. Kaladin beating his depression, Shallan forgiving herself and accepting truths about her past, Szeth bringing justice to those who deserve it, Dalinar changing himself from the person he used to be to become a honorable leader Roshar needs. The final oath will for sure do something more than make them "better". Spren would be pulled closely to PR, experiencing life and emotions like humans are (as evident by Syl and Kal's 4th Oath). There will be more to the final Oath than simply Radiant getting better. 20 hours ago, Heilven said: Every step we have seen so far is a large boost in power and ability, so to just have a moderate boost in power for the final and most difficult oath just feels wrong to me. Not really, Kal's second oath didn't make him able to use Gravitation, he was able to do it before that, he just didn't know. Shallan soulcasted before using illuminations, yet she was later unable to soulcast. Lift didn't really change with her Oaths, she was Awesome from the beginning. Only Skybreakers and Dustbringers have limited access to their Surge of Division, no one else has such limits. However with every Oath they're getting more efficient with their use of Stormlight, and their powers become more intuitive to them. Shardblades and Shardplates are granted to them too, yes, but that's a physical manifestation of their spren, not their power. Of course, and I don't mean to say that the 5th ideal is all about reaching it and seeing what happens. But I still argue that every oath (for kaladin, at least) has come with a substantial jump in power. The second oath didn't give him the ability to surgebind, but it did significantly improve it, as well as his healing ability. Kaladin had been on the first oath for over 5 years, and he barely noticed any sort of healing, despite the constant stormlight everywhere on roshar(The obvious example here is being strung up in the storm, which still took him a couple weeks to recover from. Post second ideal he probably could have recovered in a day, given the amount of stormlight he had access to. With the amount he carries around now, even at second ideal he probably would have been fine in hours, if not minutes.). It was only after the second ideal that the effect became as incredible as healing stabs in seconds. The effects of stronger nahel bonds are certainly what gives the flashy, obvious changes of the third and fourth ideal, but the fourth ideal did also come with the ability to fully resist the suppression fabrial, setting him far higher in power scaling than the fused. I would at least expect something of similar magnitude. You are correct in saying that the abilities could be less in the "mystical" sense, and more in the mental or metaphysical sense. I don't think the 5th ideal would be "unlocking" some hidden ability, rather that "basic lashing at a distance" could be a accessed with a greater capacity. But still, that certainty wouldn't be the intended effect as you have proven. 7 hours ago, alder24 said: 20 hours ago, Heilven said: Maybe lightweavers get the "soulcast lightweavings" ability that everyone has talked about so much SHALLAN ALREDY DID THAT IN OB! I will happily sit on my fence and swing my feet on this one. I think that it's very rational and they should be able to do it. I have read many bits of evidence from both sides of the argument as to whether she has done it before. I refuse to form an opinion. I did say though: 20 hours ago, Heilven said: I'd also be willing to believe they can just do that So I'm not doubting you. I simply refuse to pick a side. 7 hours ago, alder24 said: 20 hours ago, Heilven said: With the exploration of the reverse lashing in rhythm of war, it seems like we will get more in that direction. I think windrunners definitely see adhesion as weaker than gravitation, and using surges together is certainly bound to make them more powerful. Yes, they underuse it. And that's the problem. They don't learn to use it, don't explore Adhesion, don't try new things with it. I doubt that with 5th Oath something new with their Surges will be unlocked to them, it's just by this time they will have so much experience with their Surges that they will just figure out new things that they can do with them, which they didn't think about earlier because they didn’t have enough practice. Whether I am correct or not, this is certainly true. If basic lashing at a distance is possible, it would be more in the vein of figuring out new ways to use their ability. Whether it's possible or not, this was a good discussion, thank you!
alder24 Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 54 minutes ago, Heilven said: The text was written by humans, but it is based on research done by others. Very unlikely to be that reliable, because its author, Hessi, was alive during the Final Desolation. It was written in current times, the knowledge of Unmades is simply lost and mostly non existing. The knowledge that Fused has access to only 9 Surges was already lost. From Coppermind: Quote Hessi was presumably alive on Roshar during the arrival of the Everstorm; she was a contemporary of Jasnah Kholin[2] and Shallan Davar mentioned that Mythica was a recent work.[1] Shallan told Adolin and Kaladin about some of Hessi's controversial hypotheses in the book, noting that Mythica was poorly received and was hard to find.[1] Hessi herself knew that aspects of Mythica would be contentious, such as her assertions that the Unmade were still alive[3] and that Moelach was responsible for Death Rattles.[4] Subsequent events proved Hessi to be correct on a number of occasions,[1] indicating that Hessi was a gifted researcher, as she was apparently able to meet the challenge of separating fact from fiction in the many tales and stories about the Unmade.[5] 54 minutes ago, Heilven said: The reason windrunners "only" have access to physical adhesion is due to the resonance with the surge of gravitation, affecting the way they can use both of the powers. What if it's the other way around? What if the reason that Bondsmiths can use Spiritual Adhesion is because of Tension, and all normal uses of Adhesion are physical? Or what if its because of Bondsmith spren? What if it's the bond with big spren that gives this ability? In that case neither Windrunners, nor Fused, and maybe even Yelig-Nar won't have that. This is supported by the fact that the suppression effect of the Tower would mess up with Bondsmith vision (but that's likely because suppression is messing with bonds): Spoiler italia06823834 Yeah a shared vision with Navani would be pretty helpful. I assume the mechanism messing with the Radiants in the Tower would also mess with bringing someone into the vision. But then again, the pure Honor Surge Adhesion still works for Kaladin and aren't the vision tied directly with Honor? Brandon Sanderson It would have messed with such a vision, yes. General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 30, 2020) 54 minutes ago, Heilven said: Yelig-Nar wouldn't have that limitation, as it has access to tension, and the resonances would all cancel out. The more powers you have the less resonances there are. With all 10 Surges there would be almost no resonances, nothing visible at least. Like with Mistborn. Spoiler OrangeJedi Do Mistborn have resonances? Brandon Sanderson *Hesitantly* Everybody does, but they're not as pronounced. OrangeJedi Is that because they just have so many powers? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Orem Signing (March 16, 2019) 55 minutes ago, Heilven said: That quote by Khriss is specifically in reference to twinborn, and actually implies that resonances on Roshar are more blunt and simple. She specifically says "The effects here are more subtle than they are when mixing Surges on Roshar". Implying that the resonance effect on Roshar is far less subtle than Wax's ability to accelerate and decelerate in the air, or perhaps the resonance is even more subtle than that. You are very correct to point out that we have almost no proper examples of resonances, and that definitely makes it harder to talk about. And that effect perfectly fits with having more squires, which is not so subtle than whatever Wax has. They have a lot of squires which are very visible. You're really arguing with clear WoBs that confirms for once what is the resonance of Windrunners. 2 hours ago, Heilven said: I think that the reverse lashing is a lot more subtle than you are making it out to be. Reverse Lashing is a power, not effect. 2 hours ago, Heilven said: I think it's wrong to think about the reverse lashing as a separate power, it should be thought of as a mixing of two powers. It is mixing of two powers. 2 hours ago, Heilven said: Firstly, I wonder if the kinetic investiture of different surges actually has different tones Yes it's recognisable by A-bronze Spoiler LazarusRises Can a Seeker burning bronze detect a Surgebinder using Stormlight? Do different Surges have different pulses? Brandon Sanderson Yes, and yes. Good questions. General Reddit 2017 (Dec. 13, 2017) 2 hours ago, Heilven said: Of course, and I don't mean to say that the 5th ideal is all about reaching it and seeing what happens. But I still argue that every oath (for kaladin, at least) has come with a substantial jump in power. The second oath didn't give him the ability to surgebind, but it did significantly improve it, as well as his healing ability. Kaladin had been on the first oath for over 5 years, and he barely noticed any sort of healing, despite the constant stormlight everywhere on roshar(The obvious example here is being strung up in the storm, which still took him a couple weeks to recover from. Post second ideal he probably could have recovered in a day, given the amount of stormlight he had access to. With the amount he carries around now, even at second ideal he probably would have been fine in hours, if not minutes.). It was only after the second ideal that the effect became as incredible as healing stabs in seconds. The effects of stronger nahel bonds are certainly what gives the flashy, obvious changes of the third and fourth ideal, but the fourth ideal did also come with the ability to fully resist the suppression fabrial, setting him far higher in power scaling than the fused. I would at least expect something of similar magnitude. You are correct in saying that the abilities could be less in the "mystical" sense, and more in the mental or metaphysical sense. I don't think the 5th ideal would be "unlocking" some hidden ability, rather that "basic lashing at a distance" could be a accessed with a greater capacity. But still, that certainty wouldn't be the intended effect as you have proven. Yes, but the jump in power was in the form of becoming more efficient with Stormlight, not by giving them new powers and abilities. Which explains all that you described. Spoiler Zykai (paraphrased) Squires and people wielding Honorblades use more Stormlight than a regular Radiant. Who uses more? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The further you progress, the more efficient you become at consuming Stormlight. They're never as efficient as the Voidbringers, since humans leak too much. Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019) Spoiler Brandon Sanderson A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage. Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can. So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences. General Reddit 2017 (Sept. 8, 2017) 2 hours ago, Heilven said: Whether I am correct or not, this is certainly true. If basic lashing at a distance is possible, it would be more in the vein of figuring out new ways to use their ability. Whether it's possible or not, this was a good discussion, thank you! Yes, good one, Sorry that this time the response is so short but I've been writing this for 2 hours, but everytime I start, I get distracted somewhere else. Now it's late, and I don't have the brain anymore to think.
Heilven he/him Posted May 11, 2023 Author Posted May 11, 2023 4 hours ago, alder24 said: Very unlikely to be that reliable, because its author, Hessi, was alive during the Final Desolation. It was written in current times, the knowledge of Unmades is simply lost and mostly non existing. The knowledge that Fused has access to only 9 Surges was already lost. From Coppermind: Yes, and as an unreliable narrator I don't think we can take her word for it that yelig-nar had all 10 surges, especially as they didn't know that voidbringers only had 9 surges. 4 hours ago, alder24 said: 7 hours ago, Heilven said: The reason windrunners "only" have access to physical adhesion is due to the resonance with the surge of gravitation, affecting the way they can use both of the powers. What if it's the other way around? What if the reason that Bondsmiths can use Spiritual Adhesion is because of Tension, and all normal uses of Adhesion are physical? Or what if its because of Bondsmith spren? What if it's the bond with big spren that gives this ability? In that case neither Windrunners, nor Fused, and maybe even Yelig-Nar won't have that. This is supported by the fact that the suppression effect of the Tower would mess up with Bondsmith vision (but that's likely because suppression is messing with bonds): I don't think there's a clear delineation between "physical" and "spiritual" adhesion, unless that delineation is object to object vs living thing to living thing. That could certainly be explained by differing power levels. 4 hours ago, alder24 said: 7 hours ago, Heilven said: That quote by Khriss is specifically in reference to twinborn, and actually implies that resonances on Roshar are more blunt and simple. She specifically says "The effects here are more subtle than they are when mixing Surges on Roshar". Implying that the resonance effect on Roshar is far less subtle than Wax's ability to accelerate and decelerate in the air, or perhaps the resonance is even more subtle than that. You are very correct to point out that we have almost no proper examples of resonances, and that definitely makes it harder to talk about. And that effect perfectly fits with having more squires, which is not so subtle than whatever Wax has. They have a lot of squires which are very visible. You're really arguing with clear WoBs that confirms for once what is the resonance of Windrunners. 7 hours ago, Heilven said: I think that the reverse lashing is a lot more subtle than you are making it out to be. Reverse Lashing is a power, not effect. 7 hours ago, Heilven said: I think it's wrong to think about the reverse lashing as a separate power, it should be thought of as a mixing of two powers. It is mixing of two powers. 7 hours ago, Heilven said: Firstly, I wonder if the kinetic investiture of different surges actually has different tones Yes it's recognisable by A-bronze Hide contents LazarusRises Can a Seeker burning bronze detect a Surgebinder using Stormlight? Do different Surges have different pulses? Brandon Sanderson Yes, and yes. Good questions. General Reddit 2017 (Dec. 13, 2017) I don't really think having extra squires is really something that is especially noticeable, especially in the timeframe of khriss's research. Kaladin has had the most amount of time to accumulate squires, and so he has the most. There's not enough statistical evidence for Khriss to clearly label it. Even pre-recreance, having extra squires might not be noticeable. It's hard to make an assessment though, since we don't know a lot about other orders and how many squires they get. If windrunners have like twice the number of squires than any other order, then yeah maybe that's noticeable. And I don't mean to argue with you about whether or not it's the resonance power. The wobs clearly indicate that it is, I cannot deny that. I simply dislike it, and am making that known. Old man yelling at cloud. Anyway, I still wouldn't call reverse lashing a "power". Control over a surge is a power. Burning steel is a power. Reverse lashing is an effect of using gravitation and adhesion, not something extra. They think about it as a separate power, but I don't think it could be described like that. I think it fits the definition of resonance quite well, being beyond just the simple use of both powers, but something more. Thanks for the confirmation on whether the investiture has different tones. I swear I've read that wob before too. Do we have evidence of whether or not it's keyed? Like if a windrunner puts a full lashing into an object, they could later come back and take the stormlight back. Could another windrunner take the stormlight instead? Same sort of deal for lightweavings. I imagine the answer is that it's definitely keyed, which is very interesting. I wonder if you could store your identity in an unsealed metalmind, and if that would allow them to cancel lashings of your making (pre identity storage of course). Certainly not useful, but interesting in how objects invested by surgebinders may in some way act like metalminds. 4 hours ago, alder24 said: Yes, but the jump in power was in the form of becoming more efficient with Stormlight, not by giving them new powers and abilities. Which explains all that you described. Reveal hidden contents Zykai (paraphrased) Squires and people wielding Honorblades use more Stormlight than a regular Radiant. Who uses more? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The further you progress, the more efficient you become at consuming Stormlight. They're never as efficient as the Voidbringers, since humans leak too much. Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019) Reveal hidden contents Yes, and I fully respect that. I was meaning that the relative power jump there is very meaningful and large, and it seems like by 4th ideal we are already hitting close to the ceiling of what is possible efficiency wise. I would be a bit disappointed if the 5th ideal causes no meaningful changes. Not necessarily in power, but in ability. That ability doesn't need to be in fighting capability, it could certainly be more metaphysical. I will say that the text indicates that what's happening to syl is not normal. So I wouldn't expect that the 5th ideal brings the spren fully into the physical realm or whatever, at least not normally. Regardless, I'm sure it will be interesting, and journey before destination after all.
therunner he/him Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 4 hours ago, Heilven said: I don't really think having extra squires is really something that is especially noticeable, especially in the timeframe of khriss's research. Kaladin has had the most amount of time to accumulate squires, and so he has the most. There's not enough statistical evidence for Khriss to clearly label it. Even pre-recreance, having extra squires might not be noticeable. It's hard to make an assessment though, since we don't know a lot about other orders and how many squires they get. If windrunners have like twice the number of squires than any other order, then yeah maybe that's noticeable. And I don't mean to argue with you about whether or not it's the resonance power. The wobs clearly indicate that it is, I cannot deny that. I simply dislike it, and am making that known. Old man yelling at cloud. Jasnah had her powers longer than Kaladin, and is more advanced in her Oaths for most of the story, and yet has exactly zero squires. Shallan had her powers for similar length of time as Kaladin, and had about 4-5 squires. Kaladin (and other Windrunners of 3rd Oath) have between 10-15 squires each. It is literally about twice as much, and it is quite noticeable. 4 hours ago, Heilven said: Thanks for the confirmation on whether the investiture has different tones. I swear I've read that wob before too. Do we have evidence of whether or not it's keyed? Like if a windrunner puts a full lashing into an object, they could later come back and take the stormlight back. Could another windrunner take the stormlight instead? Same sort of deal for lightweavings. I imagine the answer is that it's definitely keyed, which is very interesting. I wonder if you could store your identity in an unsealed metalmind, and if that would allow them to cancel lashings of your making (pre identity storage of course). Certainly not useful, but interesting in how objects invested by surgebinders may in some way act like metalminds. Radiant can take back Investiture they used to power a Surge. But, e.g. in Plate of another Radiant they could not use Surges, due to it being keyed to different Identity. I assume the process of using Investiture with Intent to fuel a Surge is what keyes it to a given Radiant, since Radiant can alse re-infuse spheres, and those can still be used by anyone. So Stormlight powering a Surge = Keyed to given Radiant, Stormlight only held = unkeyed to any particular Radiant.
alder24 Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 9 hours ago, Heilven said: I don't think there's a clear delineation between "physical" and "spiritual" adhesion, unless that delineation is object to object vs living thing to living thing. That could certainly be explained by differing power levels. It's used differently - spiritual Adhesion works by touching and drawing the line of connection between two things, while physical Adhesion works by spraying "glue-like" Stormlight on the surface. Typical use of Adhesion is to manipulate pressure. 9 hours ago, Heilven said: I don't really think having extra squires is really something that is especially noticeable, especially in the timeframe of khriss's research Kaladin had like 30 squires, while other Radiant's had none in OB. In RoW other Radiants had less than 5, if even that, Jasnah and Dalinar had none, Renarin seems to have none), while Windrunners still has dozens of them. Plus with in-world books like Words or Radiants, which also mentioned unusually big number of Windrunner's squires, Khriss (who live for a very, very long time, and could have been living during the Last Desolation, or Recreance) has more than enough to know about it - plus we don't know when Khriss has written Ars Arcanum - it might be after SA 5 or ever after SA 10. And it is literally confirmed by multiple WoBs that the extra number of squires is the resonance of Windrunners. 9 hours ago, Heilven said: Anyway, I still wouldn't call reverse lashing a "power". Control over a surge is a power. Burning steel is a power. Reverse lashing is an effect of using gravitation and adhesion, not something extra. They think about it as a separate power, but I don't think it could be described like that. I think it fits the definition of resonance quite well, being beyond just the simple use of both powers, but something more. Read again one of the WoBs I showed when discussing with Frustration above. Brandon calls resonance as "The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power." which Reverse Lashing does fits - but it's a different kind of resonance, not the Resonance we're talking about with squires. On 9.05.2023 at 4:39 PM, alder24 said: That's why I said reverse lashing isn't THE Resonance, but it came from 2 powers merging and interacting together, Adhesion and Gravitation. That's why, by words of this WoB below, one can call reverse lashing some sort of resonance, for lack of better words, but it isn't the resonance we're talking about, which I pointed out. 1 word with 2 definitions. Hide contents [...] Brandon Sanderson [...] The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. [...] Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016) Hide contents Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The "perks" ("secondary effect born with interaction between powers") also has not a 100% sure name, but the main one at the moment is resonances....We will discovered a lot of the in the third trilogy where the Scientific Method would be applied to the magic. Lucca Comics and Games Festival (Oct. 28, 2016) 9 hours ago, Heilven said: Thanks for the confirmation on whether the investiture has different tones. I swear I've read that wob before too. Do we have evidence of whether or not it's keyed? Like if a windrunner puts a full lashing into an object, they could later come back and take the stormlight back. Could another windrunner take the stormlight instead? Same sort of deal for lightweavings. I imagine the answer is that it's definitely keyed, which is very interesting. I wonder if you could store your identity in an unsealed metalmind, and if that would allow them to cancel lashings of your making (pre identity storage of course). Certainly not useful, but interesting in how objects invested by surgebinders may in some way act like metalminds. It's keyed to the Shard. And yes, I think Kaladin did things like that, and Shallan retrieve Stromlight from her illusions, but I don't think Stormlight is keyed to them and I think (I might be very wrong) that Kaladin would be able to draw in Stormlight from Shallan's illusions - but I don't remember if that ever happened in books. I feel like it did, but I have no idea where. Maybe I was thinking about this? Spoiler Yata During the Kholinar's sequence, Kaladin is covered with Shallan's illusions and suddenly the illusion runs off. How that happened ? At first I simply thought he breathed the Stormlight by accident, but that Stormlight had to be keyed to Shallan not him and therefore not elegible for a snack. Brandon Sanderson RAFO. (But don't read too much into this particular RAFO.) Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 23, 2018)
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