The Power Of Symbols

[Triasmus]

I'm almost 99% positive that Brandon said fairly recently that the Shaod is caused by Elantris. Maybe the monks haven't figured out how to get their shaod to start working?

[Voidus]

But people can't make Aons work at all without being taken by the Shaod, the Dhakor can still use... er.. DhakorDor?

[Triasmus]

How was Elantris made to work in the first place if the magic couldn't be used without the Shaod?

EDIT: Unless all the shaod really is is something that changes your looks and what lets you use magic is completely different...

I believe that Brandon said in a different quote that the magic users looked normal before Elantris.

I'm gonna try to find those quotes then I'll edit them into this post.

EDIT2: I can't find the quotes. I'm almost 99% sure that I read them somewhere in the forums, but they're not in the quote database (or at least, I don't know how to find them if they are). I did find something about compounding though that let me come up with a way to do reverse compounding (kinda).

Edited March 24, 2012 by Lantern13

[Joe ST he/him]

Yeah, it's likely that without Elantris, a weaker form of AonDor is possible, but the multiplied power of Elantris causes the change in looks.

[Windrunner he/him]

I always believed that the only purpose of Elantris was to enhance the power of AonDor but this contradicts it.

The Shaod is an effect of Elantris.

This makes me wonder if the city existed even before the original (Pre-Aonic) people lived there. Maybe there never were any Pre-Aonic people. But then again I might remember Brandon saying that Aona helped the Elantrians build the city. I'm beginning to think that Brandon may have changed his mind on the canon of how Elantris came to be.

[Aeshdan he/him]

I always believed that the only purpose of Elantris was to enhance the power of AonDor but this contradicts it.

This makes me wonder if the city existed even before the original (Pre-Aonic) people lived there. Maybe there never were any Pre-Aonic people. But then again I might remember Brandon saying that Aona helped the Elantrians build the city. I'm beginning to think that Brandon may have changed his mind on the canon of how Elantris came to be.

What if all the parts of the Shaod other than drawing Aons come from Elantris (glowing, physical enhancement, etc.)?

[Triasmus]

Huh... I guess Chaos is the one who said it .

[Voidus]

Well I'd say that the shaod came before Elantris, but because Aon Rao targets Elantrians that it also increased the effects of the transformation. (Basically what ReaderAt2046 said)

[Windrunner he/him]

That wouldn't work out though. You say that there was a weak Shaod that made the Elantrians glow and become stronger and live longer correct? And then they built Elantris which gave them power to make Aons? If the Elantrians couldn't draw functioning Aons they couldn't build Elantris because it is itself an Aon. I also don't think you can break the Shaod down like that into different traits like that. The way I see it, the glow and increased lifespan is an affect of being able to draw Aons, which they can do because of their constant connection to the Dor. That is why the glow, and live longer, the Dor is sustaining them, even as it sustained the Post-Reod Elantrians, who had no need to eat. Am I missing something?

I only see two solutions, which both contradict what Brandon has said in some place. One is that Elantris has been there forever, constructed by Aona for the Elantrians, but I believe Brandon has said the Elantrians built it. I don't think I'm imagining things but I cannot find the quote, so I may be incorrect, and so this could be a possibility. The other is that the Elantrians built it themselves which cannot have happened if the Shaod is an affect of the city because there would then be no Elantrians who could make Aons. Does anyone see a way to reconcile these problems?

[Quantum Toast he/him]

That wouldn't work out though. You say that there was a weak Shaod that made the Elantrians glow and become stronger and live longer correct? And then they built Elantris which gave them power to make Aons? If the Elantrians couldn't draw functioning Aons they couldn't build Elantris because it is itself an Aon.

Other way round, I think.

[Triasmus]

I'm pretty sure Brandon said that Elantrians looked normal before Elantris, but for some reason the important quotes aren't in the database .

Elantris gave them more spirit... which made them glow ...

And the zombie-Shaod-thing happened because Elantris was trying to give them more spirit (by changing them, just like with the failed healing), but it failed.

As he looked. Lukel noticed a figure standing near the back of the group, hidden by bodies. He was moving slowly, his hands waving in front of himself.

Shuden? Lukel thought. The Jindo's eyes were closed, his hands moving fluidly in some sort of pattern. Lukel watched his friend with confusion, wondering if the Jindo's mind had snapped: then he remembered the strange dance that Shuden had done that first day in Sarenens fencing class. ChayShan. Shuden moved his hands slowly, giving only a bare hint of the fury that was to come. Lukel watched with growing determination, somehow understanding. Shuden was no warrior. He practiced his dance for exercise, not for combat. However, he was not going to let the ones he loved be murdered without some sort of fight. He would rather die struggling than sit and wait, hoping that fate would send them a miracle.

HaHaaa, that counts as symbol/form (although I think we already established that it was some kind of symbol/form)

And I like that second line I quoted.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Lantern13

[Windrunner he/him]

Other way round, I think.

Ah I see now, thank you very much, I misread what they were saying. I still maintain that you wouldn't be able to break the ability to draw Aons from the rest of the Shaod. I think you would have always glowed, if more faintly.

[Voidus]

I'm thinking that it COULD be similar to what happened on Scadrial, before lerasium there were only mistings, so I think that pre-elantris the shaod probably had to take some people but very weakly, then they built Elantris which magnified the Shaod and so we have current day elantrians.

[Windrunner he/him]

I'm still having an issue with the quote. It's not Brandon's exact words, but I don't think Chaos would have worded it like that unless he was sure that's exactly what Brandon meant. It's not Elantris supplements the Shaod or Elantris makes it more powerful, it's the Shaod is an effect of Elantis, not that it is only partially responsible. I don't think the wording leaves any space for argument. I simply don't believe we can argue around something that clear. What does everyone else think?

[Voidus]

Does anyone know of a theory where the Skaze are actually posessing the Dhakor (Sorry to go a bit off topic, i've just been on the interview db and there seem to be a few references to them having a lot of influence over what they do, and it does fit with domination quite well as well as Wyrn being able to see the future, which he could probably do if he was posessed by a splinter)

As to the Shaod, I'm still really unsure about this one. I think it depends what causes people to be taken by the Shaod, if it has no genetic component then I would think that there is a very small genetic ability of people to be able to draw Aons, this is why the original Aon Rao had to be so big, to be able to be drawn by so many people each of whom could only slightly draw Aons. That's about the best I can come up with without going into just completely baseless speculation.

[Windrunner he/him]

The Shaod does indeed have genetic component. It will not take Fjordish or Jindoeese. However it is fine with taking Teos and some of the Duladelish (I just made that up and it sounds awesome) because they are both related to Arelenes. Teos are the same as Arelish, but they must be inside the area for the "Elantris Affect" to take place, and only some Duladelish people can be taken. I imagine they have to have a certain amount of Aonic sDNA.

As far as I know, no one has posted a theory about the Skaze possessing the Dakhor, so feel free. I would be cautious about using the term possessed by a Splinter though. People possess Splinters, and are still completely under their own control (although the Splinter's intnet may influence them). As far as we understand it Splinters are just a part of a Shard's power that has become separate from the whole. How they obtain personalities and cognitive aspects like Seons, and presumably the Skaze as well, is still unknown.

[Joe ST he/him]

Duladelish

Sorry to rain on your parade but they are the Duladelish

Edited March 26, 2012 by Shivertongue
Joe, I fixed it for you. - Shiv

[Windrunner he/him]

[totally off topic]

This is the second time you've made me cry Joe, first explaining to me that I'll be in my mid-forties before Brandon's books are finished, and now the senseless slaughter of the most awesome word I've ever come up with? It was way better then leratium! (Lerasium Atium alloy) Brandon will be receiving a very strongly written letter explaining why Dula should be changed to Duladelish in the annotated version of Elantris. Anyone want to sign a petition?

[/totally off topic]

[Voidus]

*Signs Petition then gets back on topic

I don't know how I forgot about the Shaod only affecting those with Aonic sDNA. Oh well, it was nice while it lasted, so yeah basically I'm completely stumped as to how Elantris ever actually got built.

[Windrunner he/him]

I think I'm going to go back to Aona built it for them. I cannot find that quote anywhere about her helping them build it, so unless someone else has, I don't believe it exists. My mind is clearly going...

[Voidus]

I think I'm going to go back to Aona built it for them. I cannot find that quote anywhere about her helping them build it, so unless someone else has, I don't believe it exists. My mind is clearly going...

I've been going through the database and I can't find it but I swear I remember a quote on that...

[Zas678 he/him]

How was Elantris made to work in the first place if the magic couldn't be used without the Shaod?

EDIT: Unless all the shaod really is is something that changes your looks and what lets you use magic is completely different...

I believe that Brandon said in a different quote that the magic users looked normal before Elantris.

I'm gonna try to find those quotes then I'll edit them into this post.

EDIT2: I can't find the quotes. I'm almost 99% sure that I read them somewhere in the forums, but they're not in the quote database (or at least, I don't know how to find them if they are). I did find something about compounding though that let me come up with a way to do reverse compounding (kinda).

What you're looking for is actually probably in the annotations. Those will be added to the database once I'm up to date on normal interviews.

Is this the one?

WEAK AONS

Elantris is like a massive power conduit. It focuses the Dor, strengthening its power (or, rather, the power of the Aons to release it) in Arelon. This far away from Elantris, however, the Aons are about as powerful as they were before Raoden fixed Elantris.

If you consider it, it makes logical sense that the Aons would be tied to ELANTRIS and Arelon, yet would work without them. The Aons had to exist before Elantris—otherwise, the original Elantrians wouldn’t have known the shape to make the city. Their study of AonDor taught them a method for amplifying Aon power.

Source

As for when was the city built?

LOCKE219 ()

How long ago (before Elantris 1) was Elantris built?

BRANDON SANDERSON ()

Hundreds of years if not over a thousand years.
Source

EDIT-

As for the Modern day Elantrians, you just have to know where to look.

This also needs added to the Database.

History and Use

The story tells of the first princess of Arelon. This was some years after the founding of Arelon following the migration of the Aonic people from other lands. Elantris, of course, had already existed as a city when that migration occurred, and had been discovered empty. While some people assumed it haunted, Proud King Rhashm (later renamed Raoshem) determined to conquer the fears of his people and set up a kingdom centered on Elantris.

The transformation of the first Elantrians happened beginning several decades later. Princess Elashe—the first of Raoshem's line to be chosen as an Elantrian—claimed to have seen the pattern of this Aon inscribed on a coal in her hearth the day after she underwent the transformation. Whether or not this story is true, a coal or rock written with Aon Ehe on it is considered good luck and a ward against winter spirits. (Though this kind of superstition is frowned upon by the Korathi priests.)

Source

[Windrunner he/him]

Thanks Zas! THat first one was what I was looking for. I knew there was a reference to Elantrians building Elantris somewhere. Oh, by the way, I love those descriptions on the Aonic jewelry as well. I wish all of the Aons had one. So there is a definitely a contradiction here. The Shaod cannot be an affect of Elantris, because the city couldn't have been built in the shape of an Aon until the Shaod made an Elantrian. I wonder what's wrong.

[Triasmus]

Yep that was the quote.

and for the edited in quote there's this paragraph above it

All Aons exist independent of humankind, their symbols inherently tied to their meaning, but few have distinct origin stories explaining how the Aon was first discovered. Some modern scholars scoff at such tales, but Aon Ehe's origin myth is well known among the common people and believed by most.

That's an origin myth that may be based completely on fact, but we don't know, so we can't really use it to prove anything.

EDIT:

When I get myself a wife (), and if she likes to read (probable), I seriously want to get her an Aon Omi pendant (I HAVE to put something in parenthesis here ).

Edited March 26, 2012 by Lantern13

[Voidus]

Thanks Zas! THat first one was what I was looking for. I knew there was a reference to Elantrians building Elantris somewhere. Oh, by the way, I love those descriptions on the Aonic jewelry as well. I wish all of the Aons had one. So there is a definitely a contradiction here. The Shaod cannot be an affect of Elantris, because the city couldn't have been built in the shape of an Aon until the Shaod made an Elantrian. I wonder what's wrong.

Actually I think this makes a bit of sense, the original Elantrians (who built Elantris) must have had a larger spiritual connection to Aona, and so could draw Aons without assistance. They then built Elantris to magnify their power, something then happened to cause them all to either die or leave. The Aonic population migrated and eventually had been living in the area and been targeted by Elantris for long enough that they began being taken by the Shaod.

(I think that makes sense, I'm still trying to think it over)