Is the surge of abrasion directional?

[A cube, cubed]

I was thinking about how the surge of abrasion has been compared to ice skating, and ice skating works because you have low friction parallel to the blade, but high friction perpendicular to the blade, allowing you to push off the ice. I was wondering if the surge of abrasion works like this, where friction is only reduced in the forward direction, so you would only slide forward even if you were pushed sideways, or if it’s more like jumping onto ice with regular shoes on, where you have low friction in all directions and you would start to slide sideways if you were pushed sideways?

thanks in advance!

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the forums.

53 minutes ago, A cube, cubed said:

I was thinking about how the surge of abrasion has been compared to ice skating, and ice skating works because you have low friction parallel to the blade, but high friction perpendicular to the blade, allowing you to push off the ice. I was wondering if the surge of abrasion works like this, where friction is only reduced in the forward direction, so you would only slide forward even if you were pushed sideways, or if it’s more like jumping onto ice with regular shoes on, where you have low friction in all directions and you would start to slide sideways if you were pushed sideways?

thanks in advance!

That's exactly the skill that Lift is having trouble mastering. Abrasion is frictionless in all directions, but a key component to moving the way we say in Oathbringer is that that the Surgebinder can selectively decide what to slick. The part that Lift has not yet realized is that the Surgebinder would need to momentarily "unslick" a small section of the foot while pushing off with that foot. More like using a toe pick on figure skates to add friction and change movement.

And, while we have not yet seen it in-book yet, Abrasion should (in theory) also be able to add friction. So, using it to move is as much a practiced skill as Kaladin's attempts to learn to wall-walk in Words of Radiance.

From the Coppermind (linked above):

Spoiler

The Surge of Abrasion can be manipulated to alter the frictional force between two surfaces. The two orders of Knights Radiant with access to this Surge are the Dustbringers and the Edgedancers. The brand of Fused with access are the shetel-im, or Flowing Ones.

    Slicking: This ability allows the Surgebinder to make their body frictionless. The Surgebinder can choose which parts of the body are affected and which parts are not; for example, the bottom of the feet can be infused so that the Surgebinder glides over any surface without losing momentum until the ability is suspended. Wind friction can also be affected. However, slicking doesn't reduce the force of direct collisions. People experienced in its use often move as though they were ice-skating on the ground. Slicking can also be used to escape any grasp, or slip through tight openings. It can also be applied to objects, making it so that only the Surgebinder can grip the object without it slipping. Dead Shardplate would interfere with this.

 

[Quantus]

13 hours ago, Treamayne said:

 

And, while we have not yet seen it in-book yet, Abrasion should (in theory) also be able to add friction. So, using it to move is as much a practiced skill as Kaladin's attempts to learn to wall-walk in Words of Radiance.

I strongly doubt this, personally, since that seems to cross the line from Slick to Stick and would move into the realm Adhesion.  Both create a field of Stormlight Investiture between two objects, but causes them to Bind more and the other to Bind less.  I think this is going to be a fundamental magic system split similar to Iron vs Steel in Allomancy.  

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

14 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Abrasion should (in theory) also be able to add friction.

I strongly doubt this, personally, since that seems to cross the line from Slick to Stick and would move into the realm Adhesion.  Both create a field of Stormlight Investiture between two objects, but causes them to Bind more and the other to Bind less.  I think this is going to be a fundamental magic system split similar to Iron vs Steel in Allomancy.  

I can very well see your version as possible. I meant that friction, by definition, involves movement (where Adhesion is specifically stationary). So, I'm basing my guess on two things:

1. The official description says "Abrasion can be manipulated to alter the frictional force between two surfaces."
2. Lift's climbing ability is described as being able to touch Wyndel, but when you examine the scenes, not every hand and foothold is really on Wyndel. It is likely she is (unconciously) increasing the friction to help her climb. 

It's certainly not decisive, and could really go either way; but I see no reason why somebody using the Surge of Abrasion couldn't increase "frictional force" to some extent with the proper Intent. 

Edited April 28, 2023 by Treamayne
Clarity

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

I can very well see your version as possible. I meant that friction, by definition, involves movement (where Adhesion is specifically stationary). So, I'm basing my guess on two things:

1. The official description says "Abrasion can be manipulated to alter the frictional force between two surfaces."
2. Lift's climbing ability is described as being able to touch Wyndel, but when you examine the scenes, not every hand and foothold is really on Wyndel. It is likely she is (unconciously) increasing the friction to help her climb. 

It's certainly not decisive, and could really go either way; but I see no reason why somebody using the Surge of Abrasion couldn't increase "frictional force" to some extent with the proper Intent. 

I see where you are coming from, but the scientist in me want to object to both of these statement.  Friction is about the Pressure between the objects, but Static friction and Dynamic friction are both real and oddly separate on each side of movement. Meanwhile The Surge of Adhesion is the power of "Pressure and Vacuum" and we've seen it affect things like air pressure (and WOB implies it would let a Windrunner survive vacuum of space where pure Gravitation users would die.)

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

Friction is about the Pressure between the objects, but Static friction and Dynamic friction are both real and oddly separate on each side of movement.

So, if I am following your thought train, you see Adhesion as adding pressure to <situation> and Abrasion as reducing/removing pressure to <situation>?

[Quantus]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

So, if I am following your thought train, you see Adhesion as adding pressure to <situation> and Abrasion as reducing/removing pressure to <situation>?

I wouldn't put it that way, but mostly because it's more on the vacuum side that makes adhesive works. 

It's more that the Abrasion surge coats and object in a field that increases the Bonds between it and other objects (using microscopic surface contour Vacuum forces the same general way physical adhesives do), while Friction makes a field that reduces or prevent Bonds between them (by blocking microscopic surface interaction just as a physical lubricant does). 

 

Edit: In other words, adhesion is like licking a suction cup to make it stick, while Friction uses the same stormlight spit to grease the surface.  And you are welcome for those mental images...

And then we have Division makes a cascade effect that actively Breaks Bonds within an object, which seems more of a mirror to the Bondsmith adhesion and/or tension ability to repair objects.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Quantus