Investiture seeking missiles

[alder24]

Because of the recent Roshar vs Earth topic, I was thinking about the use of missiles against Radiants. Modern missiles can do a lot, and can be guided by lots of seeking systems, but against invested individuals, like Surgebinders or Mistborns, they’re lacking the most efficient way of guidance - detecting investiture. But in Cosmere, there are ways to accomplish that. In SotD there was a device that was able to detect Aviars and map them. And that made me thinking how to make a perfect missile for the future of Cosmere

1. Guidance system.
   There are multiple ways to achieve this. Some Aviars have the ability to detect investiture, on Roshar Secretspren can detect and locate Surgebinding, on Nalthis Breaths grants the ability to detect life, amounts of Breath people have, even if an object is invested and how much it is invested. But most notably, on Scadrial, simple Allomantic bronze can detect usage of investiture as well. And there is a way to make a machine that can do that - Primar Cubes. So just charge a Pirmar Cube with a powerful A-bronze that can detect kinetic investiture from a great distance. Additionally I bet there are ways to extend the range of Primar Cubes in the same way as in Fabrial tech. Or use fabrial with Secretspren. This is the guidance system of the missile.
2. Propulsion system
   Instead of using classical rocket fuel, why not use something better, more magical? Gravity Fabrial. Just use Gravity Fabrial that accelerates the missile into the specific direction. And this would make such a rocket much smaller in size, because it doesn't have to carry all of that fuel.
3. The computer system
   The brain is necessary. And with additions of fabrials and Primar Cubes, a simple Earthly computer is not enough. But TotES introduced us to Awakened circuits. This will provide the brain to the rocket, allowing it to use A-bronze Primar Cube as a seeking device, filter targets to the specific use of investiture, like Metalborns or Surgebinding, target them and activate the gravity fabrial pulling the rocket into the target’s direction. Even if it misses, it can turn around and strike again. To make it better, the missile should strike like a Javelin, first pulled directly above the target, then strike vertically down. If invested enough, the Awakened circuits can alone detect even innate/static investiture, which would make the missile target even people that don’t actively use investiture at that moment, like metalminds or Stormlight. 
4. The warhead
   Harmonium-Trellium warhead or better Anti-Investiture warhead. It would be triggered in close proximity to the target. Additionally, you can make the missile work like a giant syringe that will inject proper Anti-Investiture into the target on contact to fully annihilate their soul, with no collateral damage.
5. The battery
   Everything would be fueled by on board unkeyed Dor.
6. Bunker buster
   Of course many targets might be in armored or protected structures, inside houses or in bunkers. Here the ability to penetrate through any obstacle before striking the target is very needed. And the Soulcaster Fabrial will do the job. WIth the proper wiring, and Awakened circuits, you can make the soulcaster to be activated in contact with structures and turn them all to dust, making a passageway through any obstacles outside of aluminum. For busting through aluminum shielding, design the missile to be just like a real life bunker buster missile on top of the Soulcaster.
7. Protection
   To protect the rocket from enemy invested arts, like Surges, Soulcasting, Steelpush, the outer layer of the missile should be made out of aluminum, with proper holes in it for guidance system and Soulcaster to work. When the bronze detects the use of Surges targeted at the missile, the holes can be shut close with aluminum to fully encase the missile and protect it from all forms of invested arts, making the missile invulnerable. 
    

That kind of missile can strike any target, anywhere they are, and the missile can be launched from very far away, and it will seek its own target by itself. You can just release a swarm of missiles far above enemy territory and they will make sure that nobody is using investiture there. And that’s how you make modern, precision guided, investiture seeking, hypersonic, bunker buster, intercontinental, gravitational missile. Space era will be fun.

[Frustration]

That sir, is a very expensive missile.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Guidance system.
There are multiple ways to achieve this. Some Aviars have the ability to detect investiture, on Roshar Secretspren can detect and locate Surgebinding, on Nalthis Breaths grants the ability to detect life, amounts of Breath people have, even if an object is invested and how much it is invested. But most notably, on Scadrial, simple Allomantic bronze can detect usage of investiture as well. And there is a way to make a machine that can do that - Primar Cubes. So just charge a Pirmar Cube with a powerful A-bronze that can detect kinetic investiture from a great distance. Additionally I bet there are ways to extend the range of Primar Cubes in the same way as in Fabrial tech. Or use fabrial with Secretspren. This is the guidance system of the missile.

You could also probably use alerter fabrials.

[alder24]

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That sir, is a very expensive missile.

Smart missiles are expensive. And because you're using fabrials and anti-investiture, those missiles can be very small, so you need just small amounts of investiture to power them. Breaths are the most expensive parts of it. Instead of the Dor you can also use unkeyed Stormlight. And if you can tune unkeyed Stormlight into Endowmentlight - you now have a Breath replacement, making the missile far more cheaper. With this you are almost 100% sure that enemy Surgebinder or Mistborn will be killed, no matter what he does.

Want to go even crazier? Give it transportation fabrial, allowing it to move into CR. Now the missile can not only follow its target into CR, but also travel through CR right up to the target and transport into PR to explode. Adding more, make warhead detachable, just before exploding, warhead is triggered and detached, while the core of the missile transports itself back into CR and then travels back to a base to be reused. Perfect, unstoppable weapon. 

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You could also probably use alerter fabrials.

Oh yeah, this too. Everything that detects kinetic investiture would work. You can of course put multiple systems for redundancy, or for detecting different types of investiture, one for kinetic, other for static, and the missile would target those with lots of static investiture first for example.

 

Awakening a weapon and turning it into a perfect killing machine - what could go wrong? If only there was already an Awakened weapon that could warn us about possible unforeseeable effects  

Edited April 25, 2023 by alder24

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Smart missiles are expensive. And because you're using fabrials and anti-investiture, those missiles can be very small, so you need just small amounts of investiture to power them. Breaths are the most expensive parts of it. Instead of the Dor you can also use unkeyed Stormlight. And if you can tune unkeyed Stormlight into Endowmentlight - you now have a Breath replacement, making the missile far more cheaper. With this you are almost 100% sure that enemy Surgebinder or Mistborn will be killed, no matter what he does.

I think the most expenseive thing is the Soulcaster.

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I think the most expenseive thing is the Soulcaster.

Naah. Not in the future. Navani now knows how they are made, so they can easily convince spren to manifest itself as the Soulcaster. And the explosion won't damage the spren - it might destroy the physical Soulcaster, but the spren will be fine and can return to base to be used in another missile.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Naah. Not in the future. Navani now knows how they are made, so they can easily convince spren to manifest itself as the Soulcaster.

Can they?

They will become more common, but I don't think they will ever be cheap.

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And the explosion won't damage the spren - it might destroy the physical Soulcaster, but the spren will be fine and can return to base to be used in another missile.

Can they?

I don't know if the process is reverseable, or if they can willingly dismiss themselves.

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Can they?

They will become more common, but I don't think they will ever be cheap.

Cheap - no. Available in greater numbers - yes. If they are made out of sapient spren, you can force them (I mean persuade them) into making more young spren, if from lesser, than they're numerous and expandable anyway.

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Can they?

I don't know if the process is reverseable, or if they can willingly dismiss themselves.

We don't know. Maybe total destruction of their physical form will release them from Physical Realm and they are now free. If they can willingly dismiss themselves, that's problem gone. If they need the command - you have the Awakened circuits which can issue them the command to dismiss themself right before the explosion. '

 

Tbf, because true spren are sapient investiture, and possibly made out of lesser spren, I bet if humans observe this process in great detail, they could replicate that and make sapient spren themself.

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 4/25/2023 at 0:11 PM, alder24 said:

If they are made out of sapient spren, you can force them (I mean persuade them) into making more young spren, if from lesser, than they're numerous and expandable anyway.

Ah yes, agency of your warheads is such a pesky thing, no? 

On 4/25/2023 at 0:11 PM, alder24 said:

We don't know. Maybe total destruction of their physical form will release them from Physical Realm and they are now free. If they can willingly dismiss themselves, that's problem gone.

Wouldn't the Anti-Investiture destroy them too though? Even if the Spren are from a different Shardic Intent than the Investiture than you're seeking to destroy, there very well could be complications.

Quote

Dragonsteel 2022 - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

R'Shara

Does anti-Investiture react to a different Shard’s Investiture in any significant way?

Brandon Sanderson

The answer is kind of a no, kind of a yes. Mostly a no. Anti-Investiture is going to have an explosive reaction. But the thing is, if it’s anti-Investiture of a specific Shard, that explosion is much grander. But you can make that explosion happen in a just antimatter-and-matter same sort of thing. But you can make the explosion bigger.

Overall though, I think the missile system could work, though it may be so expensive to assemble with all the different sorts of Invested equipment that it would be more cost effective to seek a different solution to scraping the Rosharans off your boot.

Remember kids, if you can't solve a problem with your neighbors, nuke em' 

[alder24]

20 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Wouldn't the Anti-Investiture destroy them too though? Even if the Spren are from a different Shardic Intent than the Investiture than you're seeking to destroy, there very well could be complications.

No, because you're using Anti-Investiture to make an explosion, react with normal Investiture. Both Investiture and Anti-Investiture are fully transferred into energy, and the blast wave doesn't affect spren in the Cognitive Realm.

23 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Overall though, I think the missile system could work, though it may be so expensive to assemble with all the different sorts of Invested equipment that it would be more cost effective to seek a different solution to scraping the Rosharans off your boot.

It might be expensive, but sometimes you need to make sure that that pesky, all powerful Bondsmith is dead  

You can make different types of missiles for targets of lower priority. Not every missile has to be a bunker buster type - you don't need that to kill Windrunners and Skybreakers in the air. To add more, use primar cube with F-iron to minimize the weight of the missile, and you can replace the Gravity Fabrial (if it also uses True Spren) with rocket fuel or some other effective option. You can also use an A-steel primar cube to push the rocket real hard from a special, metal launch pad, to save more fuel. Once you develop the system to seek users of Investiture and target them, you can develop lots of different types of missiles, fitting your need in a cheap, yet effective way.

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

No, because you're using Anti-Investiture to make an explosion, react with normal Investiture. Both Investiture and Anti-Investiture are fully transferred into energy, and the blast wave doesn't affect spren in the Cognitive Realm.

Ah, yeah, that would make sense.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

It might be expensive, but sometimes you need to make sure that that pesky, all powerful Bondsmith is dead  

True. Best options for fighting Bondsmith are; (1) Nightblood, (2) F-steel after Compounding for a year, (3) tactical nuke 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

You can make different types of missiles for targets of lower priority. Not every missile has to be a bunker buster type - you don't need that to kill Windrunners and Skybreakers in the air. To add more, use primar cube with F-iron to minimize the weight of the missile, and you can replace the Gravity Fabrial (if it also uses True Spren) with rocket fuel or some other effective option. You can also use an A-steel primar cube to push the rocket real hard from a special, metal launch pad, to save more fuel. Once you develop the system to seek users of Investiture and target them, you can develop lots of different types of missiles, fitting your need in a cheap, yet effective way.

Honestly, Scadrial would do far better in a duel of planets with Roshar than some people think. If they develop weapons like this, they'd be set up very well for the space era.

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Honestly, Scadrial would do far better in a duel of planets with Roshar than some people think. If they develop weapons like this, they'd be set up very well for the space era.

Well, yes, but not in this case, as these missiles combines what's best of every system, and there is a lot of components that neither Rosharans or Scadrians alone won't be able to make.

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Well, yes, but not in this case, as these missiles combines what's best of every system, and there is a lot of components that neither Rosharans or Scadrians alone won't be able to make.

Hmmm. Yeah, it would prove somewhat problematic if you needed someone's help to build the bomb you wanted to kill them with.

I would argue that the Scadriens have Kandra, and could therefore have extremely effective spies that could sneakily take what they needed, but Roshar has Lightweavers and the ability to seek into the Cognitive Realm, which would make hiding from their detection a lot harder as a Kandra, I would imagine.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 25.4.2023 at 3:10 PM, alder24 said:

Because of the recent Roshar vs Earth topic, I was thinking about the use of missiles against Radiants. Modern missiles can do a lot, and can be guided by lots of seeking systems, but against invested individuals, like Surgebinders or Mistborns, they’re lacking the most efficient way of guidance - detecting investiture.

I am sorry, but why would you bother? If you have means of teleportation, which AonDor, Elsecalling and Dakhor provide, why would you mount your warhead onto a missile? Teleport it.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

I am sorry, but why would you bother? If you have means of teleportation, which AonDor, Elsecalling and Dakhor provide, why would you mount your warhead onto a missile? Teleport it.

What if you don't know where your enemy is? What if you don't have coordinates to create AonTia? What if your enemy is changing positions fast? What if you don't want to kill somebody just to deliver your warhead? What if you don't have access to teleportation? In case of Elsecalling for now we don't know how teleportation work and what are its limits, it allows for worldhopping (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/44/#e655), but except for Elsecalling boosted by a Bondsmith during destruction of Ashyn, all other forms of Elsecalling are shown to be restricted (Oathgates, Nex-im can't take anything with them, Jasnah traveling in and out of CR, not within PR). Yes, in the future Elsecalling will be expanded and this will likely include teleportation within PR. But if you don't know where your enemy is, you need to be closer to detect it in the first place - that's what the missile is for. 

And it was fun making it up. Teleportation is just boring.

Edit: Brandon's magic is about limitations. I'm almost certain that you won't be able to just teleport nukes right where the enemy is, just like time bubbles aren't railguns which create microwaves or x-rays.

Edited May 22, 2023 by alder24