Moash Redemption Arc??????

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Neither Dalinar's nor Moash's actions were "acceptable;" and, to me, comparing them is pointless since the sliding scale of morality will point differently for each of us (based on background, religion, personal beleif, etc.). However, I think the main difference is:

• For Dalinar we saw how his guilt wrecked and nearly destroyed his life, his relationships with family and friends and his health. While he sought Shardic intervention to free him from his guilty conscience, he used that second chance to become better (and therefore "earned" his redemtion)

Agreed. No one is saying what Dalinar did is ok, least of all Dalinar himself, but how he responded to the events is completely different from Moash.  I admit, I think the circumstances should play a big factor is how terrible an act is, but it's how his regret manifests that sets the two of them apart.  What's more, Dalinar sought out the Night Watcher of his own accord.  He made the choice to change.  

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

• For Moash we saw the beginnings of his guilty feelings at the end of WoR (when he removed the Bridge Four patch) and as his actions and guilty feelings began to destroy his life - he too sought Shardic intervention for his guilty conscience. However, so far he has only used that second chance to slide further down the morality scale. He hasn't yet recognized a need for redemption, much less decided to start trying to improve.

The problem is that just when it starts to look like Moash is beginning to recognize how terrible his actions were, he drops all signs of guilt when he sees things he doesn't like. When he discovers that dark eyes haven't used the desolation as a way of overthrowing light eyes, he immediately concludes that he's not the one who's broken, but everyone else is.  He uses that as a way to excuse everything he did.  And that's about the time that Odium starts to influence Moash.

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

No need for spoiler-tagging OB and RoW here, they are well out of spoiler period.

Personally, everything Dalinar did in the war and at the Rift was worse than what Moash did, Brandon just wrote it so that the people of the Rift don't matter to us as much as the people Moash killed. Evi being an accident doesn't make up for the fact that Dalinar killed people on purpose. That's just me, but I 100% am not on board for rating Moash's crimes worse just because we like the people he killed more.

In fairness to Dalinar, the Rift was a city in rebellion.  A battle of some sort was a foregone conclusion.  And Dalinar never wanted it to go as far as it did. But Evi aside, it's his reaction to the horror he unleashed that's the real difference.  He admits that they went to far, despite Sadeas saying otherwise.  And then spends years trying to overcome the knowledge that he was to blame.  

And it's not a matter of Moash's crimes being worse or better than Dalinar's.  It's a question of whether or not he's able to own up to them and try to atone.  Which, so far, he hasn't, despite at one point being freed from Odium's influence.

[Jn819 she/her]

On 4/18/2023 at 11:40 AM, JohnnyKaizen said:

All that said, I don't currently see a way back for Moash. He is the Walter White of Roshar. At every crossroads of decision, where he could choose to make things better or make things worse..he has choosen "make things worse" every single time, and he has made that choice while blaming everyone and everything around him. 

That's exactly the thing. Could he hypothetically be redeemed? Yes. Will he ever seek redemption? Almost definitely not.

[Greywatch she/her]

I think Dalinar responded basically the exact same way as Moash: with complete denial and avoidance of his own responsibility for his actions. He had a period of wretched and immoral denial of his own actions for years. He didn't respond to his own actions "the right way" until Oathbringer, which is multitudes more time than Moash is getting before judgment. If Dalinar can try and turn himself around in the face of righteous hatred from the people whose lives he's wrecked (the Herdazians were too nice to him), then so can Moash.

[Nogo]

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I think Dalinar responded basically the exact same way as Moash: with complete denial and avoidance of his own responsibility for his actions. He had a period of wretched and immoral denial of his own actions for years. He didn't respond to his own actions "the right way" until Oathbringer, which is multitudes more time than Moash is getting before judgment. If Dalinar can try and turn himself around in the face of righteous hatred from the people whose lives he's wrecked (the Herdazians were too nice to him), then so can Moash.

I disagree almost completely.  I see Moash and Dalinar as vastly different.  Dalinar never denied his own actions until Cultivation took the memories from him.  Also, he did not intentionally burn his Evi--he intentionally burned the "hiding area."   Moash intentionally did everything he has done.  As for the city itself, Dalinar burned the Rift in a rage.  Moash never did his actions in the spur of the moment, but rather after cool INTENTIONAL thought.  Intent is key... wait, I think I have heard that before....    

I can see how you can draw some similarities between Dalinar and Moash, but I don't agree that they are comparable creatures.  Dalinar, for the most part, always thought he was doing the right thing.  He and Szeth are much more similar than him and Moash.  Moash knows that he's doing wrong.  He just does it anyways.   

[Letryx13]

9 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I think Dalinar responded basically the exact same way as Moash: with complete denial and avoidance of his own responsibility for his actions. He had a period of wretched and immoral denial of his own actions for years. He didn't respond to his own actions "the right way" until Oathbringer, which is multitudes more time than Moash is getting before judgment. If Dalinar can try and turn himself around in the face of righteous hatred from the people whose lives he's wrecked (the Herdazians were too nice to him), then so can Moash.

He only denied being responsible for Evi's death, he never tried to avoid responsibility for the Rift as a whole. Not that I can remember anyway.  And he never intended to destroy the city completely, as I've repeatedly said.  He wanted to send a message about the costs of rebellion and betrayal, and Sadeas took it further than he intended.  Terrible yes, but not evil.

How were they supposed to stop a city planning to revolt? Ask them nicely? Dalinar offered them a way out and was betrayed.

7 hours ago, Nogo said:

I disagree almost completely.  I see Moash and Dalinar as vastly different.  Dalinar never denied his own actions until Cultivation took the memories from him.  Also, he did not intentionally burn his Evi--he intentionally burned the "hiding area."   Moash intentionally did everything he has done.  As for the city itself, Dalinar burned the Rift in a rage.  Moash never did his actions in the spur of the moment, but rather after cool INTENTIONAL thought.  Intent is key... wait, I think I have heard that before....    

I can see how you can draw some similarities between Dalinar and Moash, but I don't agree that they are comparable creatures.  Dalinar, for the most part, always thought he was doing the right thing.  He and Szeth are much more similar than him and Moash.  Moash knows that he's doing wrong.  He just does it anyways.   

He denied responsibility for Evi at first, but only in his own head.  But I agree, Dalinar attempted to settle things peacefully and the Rifters tried to assassinate him.  Things went further than Dalinar intended, but it's the difference in reaction that's so critical in assessing the difference between Dalinar and Moash.  Dalinar realized the horror of what they had done almost immediately, and that knowledge haunted him for years.  As soon as Moash saw a way to excuse his behavior, he immediately took it.

[Jn819 she/her]

10 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I think Dalinar responded basically the exact same way as Moash: with complete denial and avoidance of his own responsibility for his actions. He had a period of wretched and immoral denial of his own actions for years. He didn't respond to his own actions "the right way" until Oathbringer, which is multitudes more time than Moash is getting before judgment. If Dalinar can try and turn himself around in the face of righteous hatred from the people whose lives he's wrecked (the Herdazians were too nice to him), then so can Moash.

No, Dalinar tried (and failed) to stop thinking about it, but he never believed any excuses. He drank so much because he hated himself because he blamed himself. Moash has convinced himself that it wasn't really his fault. Moash doesn't just have to learn a constructive way of handling his guilt, he has to recognize his guilt in the first place. The good news for him is that based on the end of RoW, if he's separated from Odium's influence that might happen. But I doubt it. Stories need contrast. Everyone on Dalinar's side gets redeemed; Moash needs to provide contrast by never seeking redemption himself.

[Greywatch she/her]

Yes, Dalinar getting super drunk was him being unable to face what he did - and running from facing it is denial, 100%. He didn't face what he did, he refused to accept it, he ran from the pain. That's Moash.

[Treamayne]

19 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Yes, Dalinar getting super drunk was him being unable to face what he did - and running from facing it is denial, 100%. He didn't face what he did, he refused to accept it, he ran from the pain. That's Moash.

Technically, Dalinar acknowledged culpability as soon as he realized what had happened at the Rift. His alcoholism wasn't as much denial as it was avoidance (especially of letting his children know the truth); 98% the same scenario - slightly different motivation (significantly different emotional state - one doesn't feel the guilt and denies it exists - the other tries smothering the guilt because they can't feel anything else without chemical assistance).

Edited May 22, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Letryx13]

3 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Yes, Dalinar getting super drunk was him being unable to face what he did - and running from facing it is denial, 100%. He didn't face what he did, he refused to accept it, he ran from the pain. That's Moash.

Difficulty dealing with pain is one thing.  Not admitting fault and being unable to honestly say you're sorry, despite trying to do so, is something else altogether.

[Scars of Hathsin he/him]

I want to think that he can not be redeemed, but I think that people consider him unredeemable (including myself) because of the pain he caused Kaladin, and just the generally nasty awful stuff he has done to everyone. Many other characters have done worse things, so he may be redeemable.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Scars of Hathsin

[The Cosmere Unaware]

Moash admitted to himself that he wasn't sorry for killing Teft. That's the biggest condemnation possible, he doesn't want to be better, he just wants to do whatever and not feel any of the consequences.The fundamental difference between Moash and Dalinar is one of them acknowledged their errors.

Edited May 22, 2023 by The Cosmere Unaware

[Greywatch she/her]

Difficulty dealing with pain causes some to run away from it. Both Dalinar and Moash ran away, it's just that people are more willing to ascribe nobility and give sympathy to Dalinar because they know he eventually pulls out of it.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 5/22/2023 at 4:27 AM, The Cosmere Unaware said:

Moash admitted to himself that he wasn't sorry for killing Teft. That's the biggest condemnation possible, he doesn't want to be better, he just wants to do whatever and not feel any of the consequences.The fundamental difference between Moash and Dalinar is one of them acknowledged their errors.

He was clearly lying to himself. Moash is a less reliable internal narrator than Shallan is. Because the second he lost Odium's smothering, he internally wildly freaked out that he had just killed Teft. It is later that he tells himself that he wasn't sorry for it. If he wasn't sorry, then he wouldn't have had that extreme visceral reaction the second his emotions returned. If he wasn't sorry, his internal dialogue would have been something like, "Well Teft, you shouldn't have gotten in my way. Too bad for you." But like I said, that's not at all what happens. And as soon as he possibly can, he starts lying to himself again. 

[Letryx13]

On 5/23/2023 at 9:48 AM, Greywatch said:

Difficulty dealing with pain causes some to run away from it. Both Dalinar and Moash ran away, it's just that people are more willing to ascribe nobility and give sympathy to Dalinar because they know he eventually pulls out of it.

I'm not sympathetic to the old Dalinar.  I have rationally analyzed and given specific examples of why he was terrible, but not so far gone as to say he was beyond redemption.  What he did in his past, at the Rift especially, was terrible, even horrifying.  But there were always signs of redeeming qualities in Dalinar, even at his worst.  Sparing a "brave boy", snapping out of his rage at the sight of his brother's welcoming smile, and my personal favorite.

"It is enough.  Let the rest of the people of the city escape out of the mouth of the canyon below. We have sent our signal."  

Even being influenced by Odium, even encouraged by Sade's, and despite being double crossed by the Rifters, Dalinar was able to draw the line before complete destruction.

What redeeming qualities does Moash possess?

On 5/23/2023 at 10:28 AM, JohnnyKaizen said:

He was clearly lying to himself. Moash is a less reliable internal narrator than Shallan is. Because the second he lost Odium's smothering, he internally wildly freaked out that he had just killed Teft. It is later that he tells himself that he wasn't sorry for it. If he wasn't sorry, then he wouldn't have had that extreme visceral reaction the second his emotions returned. If he wasn't sorry, his internal dialogue would have been something like, "Well Teft, you shouldn't have gotten in my way. Too bad for you." But like I said, that's not at all what happens. And as soon as he possibly can, he starts lying to himself again. 

If he was in denial, then he wouldn't have tried to say that he was sorry.  And if he was legitimately sorry, then he would have been able to say it.  It's like being sorry for getting caught doing something, not sorry for the act itself.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Letryx13
Formatting

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

35 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

If he was in denial, then he wouldn't have tried to say that he was sorry.  And if he was legitimately sorry, then he would have been able to say it.  It's like being sorry for getting caught doing something, not sorry for the act itself.

An unbroken person would be able to apologize, most likely. Moash may possibly be the most broken person currently in the SA. And a lot of that is self-inflicted. Moash lies to himself (and by extension to the reader) constantly. He's been lying since we met him. He will probably lie up until he dies. But based on what I've seen him do, and then relate back on later, his mind is at least as fractured as Shallan's and his grip on reality is probably less secure. He contradicts himself constantly. because he is a deeply, deeply broken person.

He tried to apologize and hit a block, one that in my experience, is present from deep trauma. To make a judgement that if you are truly sorry, you can say it, is a pretty ableist stance to take (while i recognize we are talking about a fictional character, BS goes out of his way to consult with mental health professionals to depict trauma, mental illness, and healing in an accurate and realistic manner). I have long struggled with mental health issues, and have been truly, deeply sorry about many things in my life that I was unable to vocalize at the time. Moash loved Kaladin. He loved Teft. He loved Bridge 4, but his trauma whispered to him from the beginning that he would screw it up..that it was a fluke...that his happiness would all go away. I imagine that was at least one of the reasons that he pursued his revenge against Elhokar so doggedly in the first place. Because, if he just went ahead and messed it up himself, he could "get it over with." That is an urge that I have been intimately familiar with many times in my life. Broken people do broken things, and quite often cannot make amends without healing first. Moash will most definitely have to do some healing to his soul if he is ever going to be anything besides a whirlpool of self-deception and self-harm.

As I've said repeatedly in this thread, I believe the chances of Moash actually finding redemption are about as likely as winning the powerball back to back, but there is still that sliver of a chance that technically exists, especially because BS has made it clear that anyone can find redemption, but not everyone will. And if it were to happen, I'd welcome it because it would bring a lot of healing to a lot of characters that I cherish.
 

[Greywatch she/her]

5 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I'm not sympathetic to the old Dalinar.  I have rationally analyzed and given specific examples of why he was terrible, but not so far gone as to say he was beyond redemption.  What he did in his past, at the Rift especially, was terrible, even horrifying.  But there were always signs of redeeming qualities in Dalinar, even at his worst.  Sparing a "brave boy", snapping out of his rage at the sight of his brother's welcoming smile, and my personal favorite.

"It is enough.  Let the rest of the people of the city escape out of the mouth of the canyon below. We have sent our signal."  Even being influenced by Odium, even encouraged by Sade's, and despite being double crossed by the Rifters, Dalinar was able to draw the line before complete destruction.

What redeeming qualities does Moash possess?

I guess I totally fundamentally disagree that Dalinar had any redeeming qualities, or at least, none that make him deserving, so I don't really feel like playing a game with this? People don't deserve redemption, otherwise the word redemption is meaningless. For me, that's a "words mean things" argument. For me with Moash, I'm fully on his side vis a vis how meaningless and cruel the system is, and I'm resentful on his behalf how the Kholins and such get to walk through life squeaky clean, on top of the world.

[Letryx13]

10 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

 For me with Moash, I'm fully on his side vis a vis how meaningless and cruel the system is, and I'm resentful on his behalf how the Kholins and such get to walk through life squeaky clean, on top of the world.

Kaladin makes that exact same argument to Dalinar while imprisoned in WoR.  And I don't disagree that it is unfair how powerful people are able get away with much more than people without such power.  But it is equally unfair to judge two people the same way when they involved in situations that were obviously different.

[Greywatch she/her]

4 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Kaladin makes that exact same argument to Dalinar while imprisoned in WoR.  And I don't disagree that it is unfair how powerful people are able get away with much more than people without such power.  But it is equally unfair to judge two people the same way when they involved in situations that were obviously different.

Yeah... I think what Dalinar said in response to Kaladin is one of the worst things Brandon ever wrote. It was 2014 and I try to have grace, but he said "be a model minority". I am truly disgusted with that scene.

[Treamayne]

13 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

 It was 2014 and I try to have grace, but he said "be a model minority". I am truly disgusted with that scene.

Do you have that quote? I can't find it and I don't recall anything even close to that.

Do you perhaps mean Ch 58 where he orders him to prison or Ch 62 where he tells him to consider it "guard duty?"

[Jn819 she/her]

5 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Yeah... I think what Dalinar said in response to Kaladin is one of the worst things Brandon ever wrote. It was 2014 and I try to have grace, but he said "be a model minority". I am truly disgusted with that scene.

Here's the exact quote (WoW Ch. 62):

Spoiler

"I understand, though. If you truly believe what you told me about Amaram . . . well, if I’d been in your place, I’d have been hard pressed not to do the same thing you did. But storm it, man, you’re still a darkeyes.”

“It shouldn’t matter.”

“Maybe it shouldn’t, but it does. You want to change that? Well, you’re not going to do it by screaming like a lunatic and challenging men like Amaram to duels. You’ll do it by distinguishing yourself in the position I gave you. Be the kind of man that others admire, whether they be lighteyed or dark. Convince Elhokar that a darkeyes can lead. That will change the world.”

I think this is actually making a good point. Whom does the general populace have a positive opinion of? Martin Luther King Junior, or Malcolm X? Angry yelling, even when justified, is easy to dismiss as the ravings of a lunatic. Heck, now that I think about it, I need to try to incorporate that into my own advocacy. I could certainly stand to emulate MLK better. I'm probably too easy to pass off as a whiny slontze.

[Treamayne]

On 5/23/2023 at 11:34 PM, Greywatch said:

Yeah... I think what Dalinar said in response to Kaladin is one of the worst things Brandon ever wrote. It was 2014 and I try to have grace, but he said "be a model minority". I am truly disgusted with that scene.

On 5/24/2023 at 4:46 AM, Jn819 said:

Here's the exact quote (WoW Ch. 62):

  Hide contents

"I understand, though. If you truly believe what you told me about Amaram . . . well, if I’d been in your place, I’d have been hard pressed not to do the same thing you did. But storm it, man, you’re still a darkeyes.”

“It shouldn’t matter.”

“Maybe it shouldn’t, but it does. You want to change that? Well, you’re not going to do it by screaming like a lunatic and challenging men like Amaram to duels. You’ll do it by distinguishing yourself in the position I gave you. Be the kind of man that others admire, whether they be lighteyed or dark. Convince Elhokar that a darkeyes can lead. That will change the world.”

I think this is actually making a good point. Whom does the general populace have a positive opinion of? Martin Luther King Junior, or Malcolm X? Angry yelling, even when justified, is easy to dismiss as the ravings of a lunatic. Heck, now that I think about it, I need to try to incorporate that into my own advocacy. I could certainly stand to emulate MLK better. I'm probably too easy to pass off as a whiny slontze.

But Darkeyes are not a Minority. Repressed peasant class, yes - but by-population they are very much the majority. 

The whole situation was much more of a Military thing (at least for Dalinar's part - Kaladin's the "racist" and Elhokar is just an indoctrinated noble acting as a spoiled child). Back in Ch 58, Dalinar (acting as General) ordered one of his Captains to comply. I found Kaladin's actions through the prison sub-plot to be far mroe reprehensible than anything Dalinar said or did (but neither were nearly as bad as Elhokar and Amaram).

Edited January 29 by Treamayne
SPAG

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

7 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

But Darkeyes are not a Minority. Repressed peasant class, yes - but by-population they are very much the majority. 

The whole situation was much more of a Military thing (at least for Dalinar's part - Kaladin's the "racist" and Elhokar is just an indoctinated noble acting as a spoiled child). Back in Ch 58, Dalinar (acting as General) ordered one of his Captains to comply. I found Kaladin's actions through the prison sub-plot to be far mroe reprehensible than anything Dalinar said or did (but neither were nearly as bad as Elhokar and Amaram).

Maybe I have a different perspective having been in the military (and still working for the military) since the 90s. 

Adolin confirms to Kaladin later that Elhokar failed them by upholding the system, instead of following through with the plan. It would be a really hard sell to argue that Dalinar didn't feel the same way about what went down. But instead of vocalizing that, he upheld the system. Which one could argue was the proper military thing to do..except that Dalinar had slowly been usurping the throne for a while at that point..so picking and choosing which thing(s) are most important get dicey. It was while Kaladin was in prison that I first started to like Adolin..because he didn't hedge his words or his actions as to the injustice that was done to Kaladin. He used his power, position, and body to protect Kaladin. And he should have. Systemic oppression shouldn't change from the bottom up, but from the top down.

Apartheid South Africa is an excellent (historical and recent) example of a majority oppressed by the minority. And, the system of rule on Roshar when Dalinar made those comments to Kaladin are very akin to it. How @Greywatch described Dalinar's statement (the person in power, talking to the person without power because the system defines it that way) is accurate. Dalinar told Kaladin to distinguish himself in spite of the unfair system. Dalinar  wasn't willing to call that system what it was. He wasn't willing to tell Kaladin what Adolin was doing. He left Kaladin in the dark, because he felt that it was a "good lesson" for Kaladin to learn. He knew what Kaladin had suffered in Sadeas' camp, but ignored that trauma, pretty much from the time Kaladin became his captain. He was inclined to believe Amaram at the time, in large part, because of the system. He did decide to investigate further, but again,did not tell Kaladin anything about it until after it was done. He didn't have to tell Kaladin, but considering what Kaladin did for him, Adolin, and the rest of his army..as well as being the Captain of his guard..I feel it was a failing to leave Kaladin in the dark, and with the intentionality with which BS writes, I am confident that he was aware of that when he wrote it.

I cringe when I read the aforementioned quote, and I believe/hope that BS wrote it on purpose to show that someone like Dalinar (who many readers/characters respect and admire) can be wrongheaded about systemic oppression (especially when you are the one in the position of power) and will use it to show his growth and change. Dalinar is sworn to unite instead of divide, and a system that gives the vast majority of power to the few and strips it from the many does not hold up well to that oath. And I do think we'll see that at some point, because of the various POVs we've gotten of Nahadon, and how he is someone Dalinar wants to emulate.

[Treamayne]

Sorry for derailing the Moash thread. Final Thoughts

Spoiler

12 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

 It would be a really hard sell to argue that Dalinar didn't feel the same way about what went down. But instead of vocalizing that, he upheld the system. Which one could argue was the proper military thing to do...except that Dalinar had slowly been usurping the throne for a while at that point...so picking and choosing which thing(s) are most important get dicey.

Exactly. In the military we have a saying: "Praise in public, reprimand in private." We've known since WoK that Dalinar does not want the throne; but does want to teach Elhokar to be a better leader (even if he has to manipulate him to do so). Dalinar was obviously against what happened, but berating the King for poor decisions in front af anyone (Kal included) would work against both the goal of freeing Kaladin and the goal of teaching Elhokar to look at a situation more than social custom and political appearance. Adolin's position gave him an agency for action that Dalinar (as Highprince and General) simply could not use (not to mention he could hardly convince Elhokar of anythign from behind bars) - and Adolin used that to great effectand should be lauded. 

Dalinar's orders to comply (for now) and work through the problem privately are a very realistic response from the perspective of a Military leader. 

I wish Sanderson had given us a Dalinar viewpoint of him "persuading" the King and I would guess he did not do so because he felt that it would undermine the "Kaladin's descent and breaking oaths" subplot too much for us to see directly that Syl is right when she tells him to trust Dalinar. We, the readers, have to unsure if Dalinar is really working for kaladin's interests to buy into the subplot that follows the incarceration. We are meant to sympathize with Kaladin's POV in these scenes. . . not Dalinar's.

Quote

 He did decide to investigate further, but again,did not tell Kaladin anything about it until after it was done. He didn't have to tell Kaladin, but considering what Kaladin did for him, Adolin, and the rest of his army..as well as being the Captain of his guard..I feel it was a failing to leave Kaladin in the dark

Absolutely concur - that was a huge mistake. One I've pointed out before as being so blatently out-of-character that it seems like Sanderson wrote it that way simply because that was what the plot "needed." If Dalinar had told kaladin what measures he was taking to investigate (instead of the terse "I'll look into it") then the whole Moash/Ghostblood/Assassination/Breaking Oaths plot falls apart. 

Spoiler

Dalinar told Kaladin to distinguish himself in spite of the unfair system. Dalinar  wasn't willing to call that system what it was. He wasn't willing to tell Kaladin what Adolin was doing. He left Kaladin in the dark, because he felt that it was a "good lesson" for Kaladin to learn.

Dalinar was absolutely pointing out the problems with the system - in the most important way - through his actions. Not just in WoR by appointing Kaladin to the position he did (and listening to his advice in counsel) - but the Oathbringer flashbacks show that Dalinar has always beleived that ability and merit should trump social standing (just look at how Teleb was recruited - and his whole Elites system). 

But this was also a lesson Kaladin did (and does) need to learn as well (and failed to learn in the referenced subplot). At this point in the story Kal is still a Captain who was given a direct order by his General. Dalinar does have a point, throwing tantrums are not a viable path to change - but that isn't nearly as relevant as this wasn't just one of the oppressed talking back to one of the Lords. This is a Commander and his subordinant. 

Quote

Dalinar is sworn to unite instead of divide, and a system that gives the vast majority of power to the few and strips it from the many does not hold up well to that oath. And I do think we'll see that at some point, because of the various POVs we've gotten of Nahadon, and how he is someone Dalinar wants to emulate.

Concur. Too many signs point to this values dissonance (much like Dalinar bucking Vorinism).

 

TL;DR: Everyone is entitled to their feelings and beliefs. I'm not trying to change your minds; I'm just trying to explain why I do not see what you all see. To me, Dalinar is easily one of the least bigotted Alethi characters in the series, and his action(s) here reflect a Military POV, not a support for a bad (and Hypocritical*) social construct.

*"Oh, we hate the lost Radiants -  they betrayed mankind. But their bonds made them lighteyed, so lets use that as the foundation for rule. . . "

[Letryx13]

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Sorry for derailing the Moash thread. Final Thoughts

Actually, I think I derailed it, by accident.  So I'm making this one post about it and that's it.

To the past several posts, I can see both sides of this argument. I do think Dalinar makes a good point about Kaladin managing to change things by distinguishing himself. The current Kaladin might be considered light eyed, but it's well known that he used to be dark eyed, and that sort of reputation can change people's opinions.  And certainly seems to have had an impact on the people in Uritheru. On the other hand, Dalinar comes off as more than a little condescending. 

But I agree that Dalinar's handling of the situation overall seems very militaristic, and I think that is the appropriate approach.  He is the commanding officer, and Kaladin chose to be a captain underneath him.  Dalinar gave Kaladin more of a chance than likely anyone ever had, and showed him respect. But because of Kaladin's history with light eyes, Kaladin didn't trust Dalinar.  Didn't trust him not to take everything from him, and didn't trust him to take his words seriously.  When Kaladin didn't see anything happening to Amaram after he told Dalinar about what happened, he assumed Dalinar wasn't doing anything instead of following up with him. That shows that Kaladin wasn't being reasonable either. Understandable, given the situation, but still.

As for why Dalinar didn't tell Kaladin about what Adolin was doing or about continuing to investigate, I have some guesses.  He probably wanted to let Adolin be the one to reveal what he'd done, maybe to help them get along better.  And as for not telling about the plan with the shardblade and Amaram, I would guess that he didn't tell anyone other than Navani and Bordin. He probably wanted to keep that secret to as few people as possible.  We don't even know when Adolin or Renarin found out.  I don't like how he handled the situation, but it doesn't seem like he acted as he did out of disrespect to Kaladin.

On the other hand, the real problem in my mind was never that Kaladin accused Amaram.  It's the fact that he did so without evidence.  Dalinar asked if he had any when Kaladin first brough it up, but Kaladin didn't have any.  If Kaladin had thought to try and find any kind of proof to support his claims, that would have changed everything (Syl would have been extremely helpful in that regard).  What were Dalinar and the King supposed to do? Publicly take the word of one man against eighteen?  

Those are my thoughts.  If you want to discuss that more, let's start a new thread.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Letryx13
Incomplete

[Jn819 she/her]

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

But Darkeyes are not a Minority. Repressed peasant class, yes - but by-population they are very much the majority. 

The whole situation was much more of a Military thing (at least for Dalinar's part - Kaladin's the "racist" and Elhokar is just an indoctinated noble acting as a spoiled child). Back in Ch 58, Dalinar (acting as General) ordered one of his Captains to comply. I found Kaladin's actions through the prison sub-plot to be far mroe reprehensible than anything Dalinar said or did (but neither were nearly as bad as Elhokar and Amaram).

Maybe I have a different perspective having been in the military (and still working for the military) since the 90s. 

Well yes, that was definitely Kaladin's lowest point. To some extent justified, but definitely not honorable.

5 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Dalinar told Kaladin to distinguish himself in spite of the unfair system. Dalinar  wasn't willing to call that system what it was.

Dalinar has been trying to change that system, especially with his promotion of Kaladin. He agrees, "Maybe it shouldn't, but it does. You want to change that?" and goes on to give advice for changing it. He didn't have to go on a rant about how awful of a system it is, we already know what he thinks of it. Actions speak louder than words.

5 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

He knew what Kaladin had suffered in Sadeas' camp, but ignored that trauma, pretty much from the time Kaladin became his captain.

Did he though? He said (I think the night after giving Oathbringer in exchange for the Bridgemen) that he could only imagine what Kaladin went through, and it doesn't seem like they have much time to casually chat in which Kaladin could fill him in.

5 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

He was inclined to believe Amaram at the time, in large part, because of the system.

And because Amaram had spent a long time building up their relationship (while hiding his dark side) mostly for the prestige. It was painful for Dalinar to acknowledge that he could have been manipulated so thoroughly. It was bad enough when Sadeas did that, but at least with Sadeas Dalinar knew he was largely an immoral asshole that he had little choice but to work with. Amaram not only convinced Dalinar to trust him, he actually convinced Dalinar he was an honorable person far beyond what Sadeas could pull off. I actually appreciate Dalinar's willingness to face that painful possibility that he had so sorely misjudged Amaram's character and do what it took to find out for sure.

5 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

He did decide to investigate further, but again,did not tell Kaladin anything about it until after it was done. He didn't have to tell Kaladin, but considering what Kaladin did for him, Adolin, and the rest of his army..as well as being the Captain of his guard..I feel it was a failing to leave Kaladin in the dark, and with the intentionality with which BS writes, I am confident that he was aware of that when he wrote it.

I think if Kaladin had spoken to him more reasonably, Dalinar might have told him. In fact, probably right after he said something about the 17 independent witnesses who swore Amaram had only gotten his shards recently. Kaladin derailed that conversation with his angry retort.

5 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I cringe when I read the aforementioned quote, and I believe/hope that BS wrote it on purpose to show that someone like Dalinar (who many readers/characters respect and admire) can be wrongheaded about systemic oppression (especially when you are the one in the position of power) and will use it to show his growth and change. Dalinar is sworn to unite instead of divide, and a system that gives the vast majority of power to the few and strips it from the many does not hold up well to that oath. And I do think we'll see that at some point, because of the various POVs we've gotten of Nahadon, and how he is someone Dalinar wants to emulate.

That's edging into political territory. I won't go too far except to say that democracy has its flaws and at its worst is no better than lynch mobs (after all, lynch mobs are the majority expressing their majority rule). It's perfectly fair for Dalinar to support the system that he knows can work. He's more interested in making sure good people have power than making sure everyone has power. Note that Nohadon was, first and foremost, a king, until the end of his life.

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Sorry for derailing the Moash thread. Final Thoughts

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Exactly. In the military we have a saying: "Praise in public, reprimand in private." We've known since WoK that Dalinar does not want the throne; but does want to teach Elhokar to be a better leader (even if he has to manipulate him to do so). Dalinar was obviously against what happened, but berating the King for poor decisions in front af anyone (Kal included) would work against both the goal of freeing Kaladin and the goal of teaching Elhokar to look at a situation more than social custom and political appearance. Adolin's position gave him an agency for action that Dalinar (as Highprince and General) simply could not use (not to mention he could hardly convince Elhokar of anythign from behind bars) - and Adolin used that to great effectand should be lauded. 

Dalinar's orders to comply (for now) and work through the problem privately are a very realistic response from the perspective of a Military leader. 

I wish Sanderson had given us a Dalinar viewpoint of him "persuading" the King and I would guess he did not do so because he felt that it would undermine the "Kaladin's descent and breaking oaths" subplot too much for us to see directly that Syl is right when she tells him to trust Dalinar. We, the readers, have to unsure if Dalinar is really working for kaladin's interests to buy into the subplot that follows the incarceration. We are meant to sympathize with Kaladin's POV in these scenes. . . not Dalinar's.

Absolutely concur - that was a huge mistake. One I've pointed out before as being so blatently out-of-character that it seems like Sanderson wrote it that way simply because that was what the plot "needed." If Dalinar had told kaladin what measures he was taking to investigate (instead of the terse "I'll look into it") then the whole Moash/Ghostblood/Assassination/Breaking Oaths plot falls apart. 

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Dalinar told Kaladin to distinguish himself in spite of the unfair system. Dalinar  wasn't willing to call that system what it was. He wasn't willing to tell Kaladin what Adolin was doing. He left Kaladin in the dark, because he felt that it was a "good lesson" for Kaladin to learn.

Dalinar was absolutely pointing out the problems with the system - in the most important way - through his actions. Not just in WoR by appointing Kaladin to the position he did (and listening to his advice in counsel) - but the Oathbringer flashbacks show that Dalinar has always beleived that ability and merit should trump social standing (just look at how Teleb was recruited - and his whole Elites system). 

But this was also a lesson Kaladin did (and does) need to learn as well (and failed to learn in the referenced subplot). At this point in the story Kal is still a Captain who was given a direct order by his General. Dalinar does have a point, throwing tantrums are not a viable path to change - but that isn't nearly as relevant as this wasn't just one of the oppressed talking back to one of the Lords. This is a Commander and his subordinant. 

Concur. Too many signs point to this values dissonance (much like Dalinar bucking Vorinism).

 

TL;DR: Everyone is entitled to their feelings and beliefs. I'm not trying to change your minds; I'm just trying to explain why I do not see what you all see. To me, Dalinar is easily one of the least bigotted Alethi characters in the series, and his action(s) here reflect a Military POV, not a support for a bad (and Hypocritical*) social construct.

*"Oh, we hate the lost Radiants -  they betrayed mankind. But their bonds made them lighteyed, so lets use that as the foundation for rule. . . "

I basically agree with almost everything you said (including in the big box), you can probably tell the disagreements by my own reply to Johnny.

22 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

To the past several posts, I can see both sides of this argument. I do think Dalinar makes a good point about Kaladin managing to change things by distinguishing himself. The current Kaladin might be considered light eyed, but it's well known that he used to be dark eyed, and that sort of reputation can change people's opinions.  And certainly seems to have had an impact on the people in Uritheru. On the other hand, Dalinar comes off as more than a little condescending.

But I agree that Dalinar's handling of the situation overall seems very militaristic, and I think that is the appropriate approach.  He is the commanding officer, and Kaladin chose to be a captain underneath him.  Dalinar gave Kaladin more of a chance than likely anyone ever had, and showed him respect. But because of Kaladin's history with light eyes, Kaladin didn't trust Dalinar.  Didn't trust him not to take everything from him, and didn't trust him to take his words seriously.  When Kaladin didn't see anything happening to Amaram after he told Dalinar about what happened, he assumed Dalinar wasn't doing anything instead of following up with him. That shows that Kaladin wasn't being reasonable either. Understandable, given the situation, but still.

As for why Dalinar didn't tell Kaladin about what Adolin was doing or about continuing to investigate, I have some guesses.  He probably wanted to let Adolin be the one to reveal what he'd done, maybe to help them get along better.  And as for not telling about the plan with the shardblade and Amaram, I would guess that he didn't tell anyone other than Navani and Bordin. He probably wanted to keep that secret to as few people as possible.  We don't even know when Adolin or Renarin found out.  I don't like how he handled the situation, but it doesn't seem like he acted as he did out of disrespect to Kaladin.

On the other hand, the real problem in my mind was never that Kaladin accused Amaram.  It's the fact that he did so without evidence.  Dalinar asked if he had any when Kaladin first brough it up, but Kaladin didn't have any.  If Kaladin had thought to try and find any kind of proof to support his claims, that would have changed everything (Syl would have been extremely helpful in that regard).  What were Dalinar and the King supposed to do? Publicly take the word of one man against eighteen?  

Those are my thoughts.  If you want to discuss that more, let's start a new thread.

I've never been in the military, but my understanding of the term Operational Security supports Dalinar not revealing that aspect of the investigation to Kaladin (though I think he honestly was considering doing it anyway, see my second last paragraph in my response to Johnny earlier in this comment). Kaladin might have acted differently with that knowledge in a way that would tip Amaram off and blow the bust. And with the rest of what you said, I generally agree unless something I said earlier shows otherwise.

Is there an easy way to copy this whole set of comments over to another thread? That makes sense to me.