Nightblood

[The Stick]

I am forming this thread to discuss anything concerning the all powerful Stick, Nightblood. To start, is anybody terrified of what Nightblood will be able to do book 5.

RoW spoiler

It literally drank up so much of Odium it was entirely sated. This amount of power being fed to Nightblood is previously unseen. We know it was at about.50,000 Breaths before this, so how powerful is it now.

[Werewolff Studios]

4 hours ago, The Stick said:

I am forming this thread to discuss anything concerning the all powerful Stick, Nightblood. To start, is anybody terrified of what Nightblood will be able to do book 5.

RoW spoiler

It literally drank up so much of Odium it was entirely sated. This amount of power being fed to Nightblood is previously unseen. We know it was at about.50,000 Breaths before this, so how powerful is it now.

I believe he's just as powerful as he was before, which is VERY powerful, but consuming Rayse only left him full, not more powerful. Nightblood, as an object is already too full - that's why he's always leaking Investiture. Relevant WOB below:

Quote

lucagreene18

If Szeth were to have drawn Nightblood immediately after he had consumed Rayse, would he still have drained Szeth's Stormlight? As it said he seemed like he had eaten as much as he could.

Brandon Sanderson

At that point, Nightblood had entered into essentially a food coma... Well, no, the food coma one came when he was drawing from the perpendicularity. I don't think he was in food coma mode at that point. I think that he could still have drawn more at that point, I'd have to go look at exactly what I wrote, if I'd put him into food coma mode or not. It is possible.

This is one of the things I wanted to answer with the book. A lot of people have been theorizing, could Nightblood eat an entire Shard? And indeed, Nightblood could not eat an entire Shard. That is not within his capability. In fact, one of the reasons that he leaks Investiture is: he's too stuffed full of it. There is more Investiture in the sword Nightblood than it can actually hold, it's supersaturated. And it leaks Investiture (that it's done some weird things to). But it is constantly hungry for more and constantly leaks it, but it definitely can get full for a time, and it could not eat an entire Shard.

I did see questions about that from people floating around, and it's something I'd been meaning to get to eventually. Nightblood is definitely relevant to things that are happening in the Cosmere, but it is not as simple as grabbing the sword, sticking it into a Shard, and defeating the Shard, unfortunately. Though, as you see in this book, there are reasons for a Shard to still be afraid of Nightblood. It didn't destroy Odium, but Rayse still really had a bad time.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

Hope that clears it up a bit!

[alder24]

11 hours ago, The Stick said:

I am forming this thread to discuss anything concerning the all powerful Stick, Nightblood. To start, is anybody terrified of what Nightblood will be able to do book 5.

RoW spoiler

It literally drank up so much of Odium it was entirely sated. This amount of power being fed to Nightblood is previously unseen. We know it was at about.50,000 Breaths before this, so how powerful is it now.

Nightblood consumed only the Vessel of Odium, not Odium. The power of Odium was likely not touched at all, or it's not noticeable, as Shard's power is almost infinite. 

Nightblood was created with 1000 Breaths, but during his life he consumed an unknown number of investiture. We don't know how much, but he is the most invested object in Cosmere. That doesn't mean he has 50000 Breaths now, we just don't know. And he holds it in the form of corrupted investiture.

Moreover Nightbloods was already full and saturated with investiture. It can't hold more of it, that's why he's leaking it. So Nightblood didn't become more powerful by consuming Rayse, and he won't be able to do more than that.

[The Stick]

No, there is a WoB on Nightblood's Breath count.

 

[alder24]

22 minutes ago, The Stick said:

No, there is a WoB on Nightblood's Breath count.

I can't find any. There are only this one that states Nightblood is more invested than 1000 Breaths.

Spoiler

yulerule

*Written:* How much compounding would a nicrosil Twinborn would need to do to get a metalmind that is as Invested as Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

*Reading question:* How much compounding would... *mumbling*

Wow, so much.

*Writes:* Wow so much. 

yulerule

*Written:* A thousand breaths doesn't seem to be that much--the God King has tens of thousands. Would a piece of stone, wood, cloth, or plain metal that has a thousand breaths be as Invested as Nightblood, or is there something more? 

Brandon Sanderson

No, it needs more. Needs more.

*Writes:* Needs more.

yulerule

More?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

yulerule

Does that-- is it taking stuff from people it kills?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO, good question.

Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

 

Edited March 17 by alder24

[Trusk'our]

20 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I can't find any. There are only this one that states Nightblood is more invested than 1000 Breaths.

Here's what I could find on the topic.

Quote

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

Questioner

You've previously said that Nightblood is the most powerful non-Shardic being in the Cosmere. Is he more powerful than the Unmade or Stormfather in terms of raw Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Raw Investiture? Here's the thing, when you say powerful, it can mean lots of different things. More raw Investiture than the Stormfather... probably not. Than the Unmade, probably. I would have to look, I don't have the numbers on this. But the Stormfather is very restricted in what he can do.

I too also remember seeing a quote mentioning that Nightblood's power was comparable to Susebron, but I can't find it, so maybe I'm just misremembering.

[The Stick]

We do know Susebron cannot break Nightblood's command. We may know when Brandon finally writes the sequel.

[Ookla of Void]

How could something as heavily as Invested as Nightblood be moved from (what world is Warbreaker on) to Roshar? It would be difficult and I don't think anyone beside a Shard could travel between systems.

[alder24]

20 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

How could something as heavily as Invested as Nightblood be moved from (what world is Warbreaker on) to Roshar? It would be difficult and I don't think anyone beside a Shard could travel between systems.

It's not the case of just being invested, it depends on what type of investiture is used for that investment. Stormlight is heavily connected to Roshar and its Shards, and thus can't be taken away from it, without breaking that connection first (which for now is not possible). But there are other forms of investiture that have no such limitations. One of which is Breaths. Breaths are given to Nalthians with "no strings attached", because that is the nature of Endowment, she just gives it away for people to use it as they wish. Nightblood was created with the use of Breaths, so he doesn't have that connection which would prevent him from leaving Nalthis. The same thing applies to Returned Divine Breath, that's why they can just leave Nalthis without any problem - Heralds, who also are Cognitive Shadows like Returned, can't.

Spoiler

Badger1289

If Investiture can’t be moved beyond a certain point away from its world/solar system, how in the Cosmere did three Awakeners end up on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Investiture from different systems acts in different ways. Certain people have managed, for example, to get some kinds of Investiture to leave their home world through the use of a kind of magical pipeline. Breaths attach to the identity of the individual, and are fully given away--freely, which removes some of this Connection. It's a nature of Endowment that the gift is given without strings attached, so to speak. But while it's a renewable resource, it's a difficult one.

Roshar is extra "sticky" so to speak with Investiture. It's part of the nature of Honor, Cultivation, and oaths. So getting it off is a problem, though collecting it is not.

Echono

Wouldn't consuming it also be a problem? You need a direct or secondary Bond to take in Stormlight Investiture. It's not like metals or Breaths that anyone could absorb. Although a certain grouchy ardent might have found a way...

Brandon Sanderson

You are right in that Stormlight is more being seen as a power source, since certain systems in the cosmere can work on a variety of different kinds. Not just anyone could make use of it, at least not unless it is refined.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 8, 2020)

 

[Stick The Savant]

On 3/17/2023 at 8:13 AM, alder24 said:

Nightblood consumed only the Vessel of Odium, not Odium. The power of Odium was likely not touched at all, or it's not noticeable, as Shard's power is almost infinite. 

I would argue that relative to the amount of investiture that Nightblood has, he consumed a lot of Odium, which is still as you said a miniscule portion of the whole shard

 

On 3/17/2023 at 8:13 AM, alder24 said:

Moreover Nightbloods was already full and saturated with investiture. It can't hold more of it, that's why he's leaking it. So Nightblood didn't become more powerful by consuming Rayse, and he won't be able to do more than that.

I remember Brandon saying that Nightblood was full after devouring Odium but, would get hungry enough given some time. Do you think that he consumes investiture at a set rate or do you think that the amount of investiture he can hold is continually increasing? I don't think there is good evidence that beings who are kept alive by investiture (such as most cognitive shadows and spren) need to constantly be invested to remain alive. However, If returned don't get a weekly breath (or an equivalent amount of investiture) they consume their divine breath and die a week later. So either returned are special in the fact that they require a constant influx of investiture, or they are just the most visible example of this. I would also assume that, if this were the case, there would be apparent exceptions to the rule such as slivers who likely have enough investiture to survive for such an unbelievably long time that it's practically for ever. 

I guess that this could be an example of the second law of investiture (according to Brandon, "stands as is",^[37] this refers to the fact that, in simple terms, energy flows from an area of higher concentration to an area of lower concentration.) So it's probably most likely the answer to what is occurring, but I still think the content above was worthwhile enough to mention. 

[alder24]

14 minutes ago, Stick The Savant said:

I would argue that relative to the amount of investiture that Nightblood has, he consumed a lot of Odium, which is still as you said a miniscule portion of the whole shard

I disagree, Nightblood was already oversaturated with Investiture, that's why he's leaking it in form of black smoke. He can't fit much more of it, because he is already full.

Spoiler

lucagreene18

If Szeth were to have drawn Nightblood immediately after he had consumed Rayse, would he still have drained Szeth's Stormlight? As it said he seemed like he had eaten as much as he could.

Brandon Sanderson

At that point, Nightblood had entered into essentially a food coma... Well, no, the food coma one came when he was drawing from the perpendicularity. I don't think he was in food coma mode at that point. I think that he could still have drawn more at that point, I'd have to go look at exactly what I wrote, if I'd put him into food coma mode or not. It is possible.

This is one of the things I wanted to answer with the book. A lot of people have been theorizing, could Nightblood eat an entire Shard? And indeed, Nightblood could not eat an entire Shard. That is not within his capability. In fact, one of the reasons that he leaks Investiture is: he's too stuffed full of it. There is more Investiture in the sword Nightblood than it can actually hold, it's supersaturated. And it leaks Investiture (that it's done some weird things to). But it is constantly hungry for more and constantly leaks it, but it definitely can get full for a time, and it could not eat an entire Shard.

I did see questions about that from people floating around, and it's something I'd been meaning to get to eventually. Nightblood is definitely relevant to things that are happening in the Cosmere, but it is not as simple as grabbing the sword, sticking it into a Shard, and defeating the Shard, unfortunately. Though, as you see in this book, there are reasons for a Shard to still be afraid of Nightblood. It didn't destroy Odium, but Rayse still really had a bad time.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

If Nightblood was indeed not in the state of food coma after eating Rayse, but was after collapsing Dalinar's perpendicularity, it means that Vessel holds a relatively small amount of Investiture, even compared to Nightblood.

 

19 minutes ago, Stick The Savant said:

Do you think that he consumes investiture at a set rate or do you think that the amount of investiture he can hold is continually increasing?

The longer he is being drawn, the faster he consumes Investiture. But he leaks it as well. So I don't know that in current times he is getting more invested over time, because if he can get full and fall into a coma state, this is likely the limit of how much investiture he can hold. So he is likely now remaining on a stable level, which drops because of leakage, but gets filled again when he is being drawn.

[Stick The Savant]

41 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The longer he is being drawn, the faster he consumes Investiture. But he leaks it as well. So I don't know that in current times he is getting more invested over time, because if he can get full and fall into a coma state, this is likely the limit of how much investiture he can hold. So he is likely now remaining on a stable level, which drops because of leakage, but gets filled again when he is being drawn.

This gives me a thought, since Nightblood doesn't seem leak investiture while sheathed, or at least leaks at a much slower rate, there must be some sort of relationship it has with it's sheath. I see three possibilities, either the sheath is invested, which brings up the question of whether it would be invested by the same breaths as Nightblood or if it is invested seperatly, the sheath could also function similarly to perfect gemstones, holding the investiture better than most other things, or Nightblood may go in to a "semi - dormant" state whenever it is sheathed, regardless of which sheath is used.

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Stick The Savant said:

This gives me a thought, since Nightblood doesn't seem leak investiture while sheathed, or at least leaks at a much slower rate, there must be some sort of relationship it has with it's sheath. I see three possibilities, either the sheath is invested, which brings up the question of whether it would be invested by the same breaths as Nightblood or if it is invested seperatly, the sheath could also function similarly to perfect gemstones, holding the investiture better than most other things, or Nightblood may go in to a "semi - dormant" state whenever it is sheathed, regardless of which sheath is used.

Nightblood's sheath is made out of aluminum.

Spoiler

Questioner

What metal is Nightblood's sheath made out of?

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood's sheath is aluminum.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

And it isn't a part of Nightblood, nor was it a part of Awakening of Nightblood, it's only function is to contain him.

Spoiler

Cadmium

With Nightblood. Was the sheath part of its construction when he was Awakened? Or was that kinda afterward?

Brandon Sanderson

The sheath is not part of its construction. Good question.

Cadmium

So... when the intent was placed on it, was the sheath there?

Brandon Sanderson

So-- The sheath was not relevant to that. The sheath was not part of the original Awakening, and it's not part of the intent or anything like that. I'm not saying it wasn't there ready for it, but it is not part of the sword. In the same way.

Cadmium

So, at some point we'll figure out why it learned to stop once its in the sheath?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, kind of. It's a function of the sheath.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

 

[The Stick]

I have a super-tin foily theory for Odium's champion. What if he chooses Nightblood. How do you kill an object. Even Dalinar, powerful as he is, likely can't break Nightblood's command. We know Susebron can't and I believe he is more heavily Invested than Dalinar. If Dalinar tries to touch Nightblood, it sucks in his investiture, otherwise, it either repulses him or he kills himself with it, maybe Odium could manipulate his emotions so he considers himself evil and kills himself.

[Ookla of Void]

As far as we know Nightblood can't move on his own so how could he be Odium's champion and how would he steal it? The Deepest ones can't fuse the axi of objects other than themselves so he would have to use a large raid on Szeth's location which is shrouded by Renerin.

[The Stick]

Odium can likely speak to Nightblood in some form. While he cannot pierce Renarin's clouding of his future sight, he could potentially discover the location at random, or somehow contact Nightblood during the Shinovar crusade. Fused could likely carry it back for him, although the Fused's perception on if they are evil could cloud this.

 

[alder24]

24 minutes ago, The Stick said:

I have a super-tin foily theory for Odium's champion. What if he chooses Nightblood.

It has to be a willing champion. Why would Nightblood even agree to something he doesn't even understand?

25 minutes ago, The Stick said:

Even Dalinar, powerful as he is, likely can't break Nightblood's command.

Well, Dalinar is an unchained Bondsmith, he is more dangerous than Nightblood, he can mess something up with his Connections.

Spoiler

Scott Beckman (paraphrased)

Which is scarier... Which is more dangerous: a sword that wants to destroy evil, or a Bondsmith with no bounds?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A Bondsmith with no bounds.

Scott Beckman (paraphrased)

Can an unbound Bondsmith take that sword's... ability for himself?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not exactly, but something similar. Probably not what you're thinking, but he could essentially take what that sword is, yes.

Miscellaneous 2022 (Sept. 17, 2022)

 

27 minutes ago, The Stick said:

if Dalinar tries to touch Nightblood, it sucks in his investiture

The handle is part of Nightblood.

27 minutes ago, The Stick said:

it either repulses him or he kills himself with it, maybe Odium could manipulate his emotions so he considers himself evil and kills himself.

Nightblood's repulsion and possession effects are weaker when a person has a strong will. Dalinar won't be affected by Nightblood.

Just now, The Stick said:

Odium can likely speak to Nightblood in some form

Odium has no connection to him, he can't just speak to him. Odium can speak freely only to those he has connection to, otherwise he needs Everstorm.

[The Stick]

Maybe Dalinar could stop this by learning how to break bonds with Ishar, unchained Bondsmiths are scary as a rule. However, Nightblood may agree to the deal. He has no true perception of good and evil. He simply draws the perception from he who holds him. So, he may believe Odium is good if Odium views himself as good. Maybe Odium could somehow pretend to be Shashara to trick Nightblood.

 

 

[alder24]

12 minutes ago, The Stick said:

Maybe Dalinar could stop this by learning how to break bonds with Ishar, unchained Bondsmiths are scary as a rule. However, Nightblood may agree to the deal. He has no true perception of good and evil. He simply draws the perception from he who holds him. So, he may believe Odium is good if Odium views himself as good. Maybe Odium could somehow pretend to be Shashara to trick Nightblood.

"Willing contestor" kind of prevent Odium from doing what you're describing. 

And Nightblood is still a sword, in possession of Szeth. Nightblood won't understand what duel of champions is about. 

Wild idea, but won't work, when Dalinar can just walk to him, pick him up, and throw him off the Tower. Or steel his Connection that makes him "alive" which would kill him.

Edited March 20 by alder24