Trusk'our he/him Posted February 28, 2023 Posted February 28, 2023 We still haven't seen any Hemalurgy of the spiritual quadrant at work. I really, really want to know what these things do though. Unfortunately, this seems unlikely until Brandon Sanderson decides it's time, but for now I will settle for educated guesswork. Here's what I think with my current, limited knowledge: Hemalurgic aluminum: Pretty straightforward, we know it removes all Invested powers from someone, but since it's aluminum, it doesn't keep the Invested charge and the powers are effectively destroyed. I am extremely confident in this particular take on this particular power. The next three are assumptions with what I feel is good reasoning behind them, but are to be taken with a grain of salt until they are proven (or disproven) to be the case. Hemalurgic nicrosil: Steals Investiture. It was mentioned by Sanderson that this is referring to raw Investiture rather than it being a "wild card" and taking any power like Atium. Quote JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021) Pagerunner The Hemalurgy table, you wrote down "atium steals any power, lerasium is all abilities, nicrosil is Investiture"; what's the difference between those three? Hemalurgic atium, lerasium, and nicrosil. What's powers, abilities, and Investiture? Brandon Sanderson People are Invested in ways that do not give them active powers. So for instance, everyone on Nalthis is Invested. Everyone in the cosmere is, really. You want to steal their Investiture, but they don't have a power. You're still ripping off a piece of their soul. So there is a distinction between the actual Investiture that's in a human being and a specific power that they have. So that distinction is pretty easy. You can also, with Hemalurgy, steal specific things. You can steal just general Investiture. You can steal, if you want--this is where the kandra Blessings come from. You can instead steal specific things that are not like stealing Allomancy. Stealing, for instance, someone's mental acuity. Pagerunner So abilities is like the half that's all the strength, speed, all that kind of stuff? Those are abilities, versus the Metallic Arts are all powers? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Pagerunner Then Investiture, is that offworld magics? Brandon Sanderson No, no, it's the raw power. Pagerunner Nicrosil is their soul? Brandon Sanderson Yes. A piece of their soul, essentially. Pagerunner So how would you go about stealing an offworld power? Brandon Sanderson It's going to depend. A Breath, you would steal with nicrosil. It's general Investiture, is what you would probably going call that. You could forcibly remove someone's Breath from them. The ability to be a Sand Master you would steal with the power ability. I assume from this that you could give someone Heightening-like effects from Hemalurgic Nicrosil, though unless you found a way to increase the number of charges you could put inside a spike, it wouldn't be very useful (you might be able to do this by Feruchemically blanking the Identity of the donor). What would be most interesting about this though, is that it is a human attribute, not an Invested power. Because of this, it would likely twist you into some inhuman creature, similar to a Koloss or Chimera. So, if someone ever learns to use Hemalurgic nicrosil to extend their lifespan, Scadrial might have a new race of creatures that are a bit like vampires: once humans who gave up their humanity to become effectively immortal. Hemalurgic duralumin: this allows you to take someone else's Identity and Connection. This is a bit confusing, since all Hemalurgy takes a portion of someone else's Identity along with the Power or attribute. I think that it might be done more wholly in this case, perhaps because Connection and Identity are more closely related than we'd once thought? In any case, I think that the Connection part might be useful for transferring skills (similar to Selish Forgery), known languages (like the Malwish medallions), emotional bonds, or even one's tie to time of birth, which might be useful to reduce one's age, but without needing to Compounding Atium since you own Connection to birth would balance with the new Connection, perhaps giving you some kind of "median age" that you'd become. You'd still age, but you could replace the spike with someone else who was youthful eventually (actually sounds a lot like a vampire now. Also, quite possibly evil). The Identity portion might also have some interesting consequences. We know that Singers can change their forms by toggling their Identity via Spren Bonds, so perhaps by using a duralumin spike you could change your race, biological sex, or other facets of your appearance. Quote Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019) Krios (paraphrased) If you have a form of manipulating your Identity and a form of healing, are you able to shapeshift or even evolve your body like growing wings? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) You'd have to do some real work on your Spiritweb to make that work. It'd take more work than you're implying, but the [singers] for instance are doing this. It'll take a little more work, it's not just blanking your Identity. Hemalurgy would make it very easy, but also very evil. But what you want to achieve is possible. It really depends on whether you would get extreme changes like we see with most Hemalurgic constructs, or if it works a bit differently for duralumin (which we don't have proof for yet, but Sanderson has done things like this before, such as with aluminum Allomancy or copper Feruchemy; some powers work differently, mostly just because it follows the rule of cool). Hemalurgic chromium: the only metal that we're told only might do something; steal destiny. My current assumption is that this somehow works by manipulating Fortune, which is some kind of "gut feeling" that every person has. I think that Hemalurgic chromium takes someone else's Fortune, but since it has actual pieces of their Spiritweb, it has portions of their Connection and Identity, that it is still "shaped" or "directed" along the same path the donor would have been nudged to take. Perhaps this mean that the Hemalurgist with the new spike would get gut impressions to do things the other person would do, but their own destiny would interfere and push them to make other decisions and their memories, personality, culture, and previous life choices would interfere, altering the path of said destiny. this means that you could try to steal someone else's destiny, but it isn't guaranteed, since destiny is tied to personal choices, past, and location as well as instincts. This is definitely to be taken with a grain of salt though, since we don't have a clear idea of what Fortune really is yet. In any case, these are the headcannons of mine as to what the spiritual Hemalurgic metals can do. I'd love to hear what all of you guys think though, and am open to new ideas as to their functions! 1
alder24 Posted February 28, 2023 Posted February 28, 2023 2 hours ago, Trusk'our said: Hemalurgic aluminum: Pretty straightforward, we know it removes all Invested powers from someone, but since it's aluminum, it doesn't keep the Invested charge and the powers are effectively destroyed. I am extremely confident in this particular take on this particular power. The next three are assumptions with what I feel is good reasoning behind them, but are to be taken with a grain of salt until they are proven (or disproven) to be the case. I believe aluminum spikes work a bit differently than all others spikes. It doesn't have any charge. You put a spike in someone, in a proper binding point with a proper intent, and that's it. He lost his powers. But that's as long as he has a spike in him. But your interpretation is also plausible.
Brgst13 Posted February 28, 2023 Posted February 28, 2023 4 hours ago, alder24 said: I believe aluminum spikes work a bit differently than all others spikes. It doesn't have any charge. You put a spike in someone, in a proper binding point with a proper intent, and that's it. He lost his powers. But that's as long as he has a spike in him. But your interpretation is also plausible. This has some interesting implications in spiking yourself to avoid detection by things like Seekers. I could see an assassin spiking themselves, getting in the room with their victim, pulling the spike, and driving nails through them with A-steel. Nobody would be able to detect them as a Coinshot prior to the assassination.
alder24 Posted February 28, 2023 Posted February 28, 2023 21 minutes ago, Brgst13 said: This has some interesting implications in spiking yourself to avoid detection by things like Seekers. I could see an assassin spiking themselves, getting in the room with their victim, pulling the spike, and driving nails through them with A-steel. Nobody would be able to detect them as a Coinshot prior to the assassination. Seekers detect active use of investiture, kinetic investiture, not powers you have. So it will give you nothing but cracks in your souls. Just don't burn metals and you have the same effect.
Trusk'our he/him Posted March 1, 2023 Author Posted March 1, 2023 4 hours ago, Brgst13 said: This has some interesting implications in spiking yourself to avoid detection by things like Seekers. I could see an assassin spiking themselves, getting in the room with their victim, pulling the spike, and driving nails through them with A-steel. Nobody would be able to detect them as a Coinshot prior to the assassination. Sounds more like what Awakeners do. You can hide from them via Feruchemical nicrosil. Quote Kraków signing - Arcanum (coppermind.net) Oversleep Could a Feruchemist hide from Lifesense by storing and which metals? Brandon Sanderson So Lifesense on Nalthis, someone storing, what now, Investiture? Could they hide from Lifesense? Um, yeah that would work. Oversleep And which metals would they need to store, Investiture, Connection… Brandon Sanderson That would probably be Investiture, that’s theoretically plausible, hiding your entire sense, a little bit easier with a copper cloud, which is how you would normally go about it, but you could make your Investiture vanish to the point that… yeah I think that’s theoretically possible. Oversleep So Lifesense works on Connection? Brandon Sanderson Lifesense works by sensing… life, so it’s not necessarily just Connection because you can go off-world from Nalthis and still sense the life to which you are not Connected. Though, you just got me wondering @Brgst13. Can Awakeners with enough Breath and enough practice perhaps tell which specific Invested powers people have? That would be pretty interesting.
IlstrawberrySeed Posted March 1, 2023 Posted March 1, 2023 On 2/28/2023 at 7:37 AM, Trusk'our said: Hemalurgic aluminum: Pretty straightforward, we know it removes all Invested powers from someone, but since it's aluminum, it doesn't keep the Invested charge and the powers are effectively destroyed. I am extremely confident in this particular take on this particular power. The next three are assumptions with what I feel is good reasoning behind them, but are to be taken with a grain of salt until they are proven (or disproven) to be the case. On 2/28/2023 at 9:44 AM, alder24 said: I believe aluminum spikes work a bit differently than all others spikes. It doesn't have any charge. You put a spike in someone, in a proper binding point with a proper intent, and that's it. He lost his powers. But that's as long as he has a spike in him. But your interpretation is also plausible. I still believe that it's charged, but at this point it's more a hope than something backed by evidence. On 2/28/2023 at 7:37 AM, Trusk'our said: Hemalurgic nicrosil: Steals Investiture. It was mentioned by Sanderson that this is referring to raw Investiture rather than it being a "wild card" and taking any power like Atium. I assume from this that you could give someone Heightening-like effects from Hemalurgic Nicrosil, though unless you found a way to increase the number of charges you could put inside a spike, it wouldn't be very useful (you might be able to do this by Feruchemically blanking the Identity of the donor). What would be most interesting about this though, is that it is a human attribute, not an Invested power. Because of this, it would likely twist you into some inhuman creature, similar to a Koloss or Chimera. So, if someone ever learns to use Hemalurgic nicrosil to extend their lifespan, Scadrial might have a new race of creatures that are a bit like vampires: once humans who gave up their humanity to become effectively immortal. Hemalurgic duralumin: this allows you to take someone else's Identity and Connection. This is a bit confusing, since all Hemalurgy takes a portion of someone else's Identity along with the Power or attribute. I think that it might be done more wholly in this case, perhaps because Connection and Identity are more closely related than we'd once thought? In any case, I think that the Connection part might be useful for transferring skills (similar to Selish Forgery), known languages (like the Malwish medallions), emotional bonds, or even one's tie to time of birth, which might be useful to reduce one's age, but without needing to Compounding Atium since you own Connection to birth would balance with the new Connection, perhaps giving you some kind of "median age" that you'd become. You'd still age, but you could replace the spike with someone else who was youthful eventually (actually sounds a lot like a vampire now. Also, quite possibly evil). The Identity portion might also have some interesting consequences. We know that Singers can change their forms by toggling their Identity via Spren Bonds, so perhaps by using a duralumin spike you could change your race, biological sex, or other facets of your appearance. It really depends on whether you would get extreme changes like we see with most Hemalurgic constructs, or if it works a bit differently for duralumin (which we don't have proof for yet, but Sanderson has done things like this before, such as with aluminum Allomancy or copper Feruchemy; some powers work differently, mostly just because it follows the rule of cool). Hemalurgic chromium: the only metal that we're told only might do something; steal destiny. My current assumption is that this somehow works by manipulating Fortune, which is some kind of "gut feeling" that every person has. I think that Hemalurgic chromium takes someone else's Fortune, but since it has actual pieces of their Spiritweb, it has portions of their Connection and Identity, that it is still "shaped" or "directed" along the same path the donor would have been nudged to take. Perhaps this mean that the Hemalurgist with the new spike would get gut impressions to do things the other person would do, but their own destiny would interfere and push them to make other decisions and their memories, personality, culture, and previous life choices would interfere, altering the path of said destiny. this means that you could try to steal someone else's destiny, but it isn't guaranteed, since destiny is tied to personal choices, past, and location as well as instincts. This is definitely to be taken with a grain of salt though, since we don't have a clear idea of what Fortune really is yet. In any case, these are the headcannons of mine as to what the spiritual Hemalurgic metals can do. I'd love to hear what all of you guys think though, and am open to new ideas as to their functions! All of these could be used to create hemalurgic constructs. The biggest question is what is required? Chimeras could have stolen a numeber of things, and if stolen from a non-human, then the chance of being a construct is much greater. Nrcrosil stelaing breaths is intresting since it's mostly physical, but otherwise H-N is the most clear. (I don't understand why there is a hybrid fuerochemical power for hemalurgy, since all the metals can be stolen with other spikes - I have a feeling the hemalurgy chart is not as defined as we think it is. Then again, entropy could be used to explain it away, but I wish there to be more forshadowing for that than there has been for someone of Brandon's skill. Good points about Durilium and chromium, I agree on all of them.
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