CMac716 Posted February 23, 2023 Posted February 23, 2023 On my second pass through of TLM, I made some observations I thought I'd share. First, given that Kel was the Sovereign and helped the south immediately after Sazed changed the world, it drastically shortens the time frame in which he got his body back. He was a Cog Shadow trapped in the Cog Realm before Sazed took the shards then helping Malwash survive right after. Seems likely Sazed had to of helped because of this. Second, given that Jaddeth is likely another Avatar of Autonomy, it would stand to reason Wyrn was trying to take up that mantle. Considering his failure in Elantris, I think it's also likely Autonomy would have dropped him like she did Telsin. Third, while on the topic of Avatars, the way Autonomy sustains and empowers Telsin sounds similar to Elantrians in general. Is there any possibility that the Dor is choosing Avatars to protect itself? It might not even be an intentional thing, just a result of the power being in the Cog realm instead of the Spiritual, not enough of a buffer between the power and the physical realm maybe. Fourth, Autonomy isn't as technologically advanced as we think. She knows what is capable, but Telsin said that Autonomy was hoping the Set could figure out self propelled rocketry for her. Yet the Men of Red and Gold look to be highly advanced soldiers or constructs of some kind. 1
IlstrawberrySeed Posted February 23, 2023 Posted February 23, 2023 18 minutes ago, CMac716 said: On my second pass through of TLM, I made some observations I thought I'd share. First, given that Kel was the Sovereign and helped the south immediately after Sazed changed the world, it drastically shortens the time frame in which he got his body back. He was a Cog Shadow trapped in the Cog Realm before Sazed took the shards then helping Malwash survive right after. Seems likely Sazed had to of helped because of this. Second, given that Jaddeth is likely another Avatar of Autonomy, it would stand to reason Wyrn was trying to take up that mantle. Considering his failure in Elantris, I think it's also likely Autonomy would have dropped him like she did Telsin. Third, while on the topic of Avatars, the way Autonomy sustains and empowers Telsin sounds similar to Elantrians in general. Is there any possibility that the Dor is choosing Avatars to protect itself? It might not even be an intentional thing, just a result of the power being in the Cog realm instead of the Spiritual, not enough of a buffer between the power and the physical realm maybe. Fourth, Autonomy isn't as technologically advanced as we think. She knows what is capable, but Telsin said that Autonomy was hoping the Set could figure out self propelled rocketry for her. Yet the Men of Red and Gold look to be highly advanced soldiers or constructs of some kind. 2. There is already an Avatar of Autonomy, and it is Jadeth, or so WoB imply. He will intercede more in the sequel. 3. Maybe, though it may be an advantage of large amounts of investiture in general, Elantrians are heavily invested enough that they may be Shard Metals - as Shard metals are material heavily invested enough to not be considered what it was before. 1
The Sovereign Posted February 23, 2023 Posted February 23, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said: 2. There is already an Avatar of Autonomy, and it is Jadeth, or so WoB imply. He will intercede more in the sequel. This is the WOB you're referring to I believe: Quote strican In The Lost Metal, it mentions Autonomy having avatars in other worlds. In Shu-Dereth on Sel, Jaddeth speaks directly to Wyrn, who then propagates his will down the hierarchy- Brandon Sanderson Yes. strican Within the religion, ambition is rewarded, but only if it aligns with the orders of the hierarchy. That sounds similar to the philosophy used in the Set, but replacing Jaddeth with Trell. Is Jaddeth an avatar of Autonomy? Brandon Sanderson *chuckles and points at screen in very satisfied way* RAFO. You're a very smart person. It's [pronounced] "Yaddeth", by the way. That is also one of the Y-J's. ... So, I will say this. Here's what I'll canonize. There is something happening, and the people there legitimately believe, and have reason to believe, that their god is going to return. And I have said before, many times, that Book 2 of Elantris begins with the return of their god. 'Cause they've said "God can't come back until everybody converts". But they've found a loophole. They're like "well, except those heretics in Elantris. And also that other little place, that tiny little region that's over in the mountains, where they talk about roses, they don't count either. Because they're, um, not actually part of the planet." Um, so. So that's something to look forward to, if I ever get around to writing Dakhor, is the return of Jaddeth, the god of [Shu-Dereth]. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) Edited February 23, 2023 by The Sovereign 1
CMac716 Posted February 23, 2023 Author Posted February 23, 2023 Yes, that's the WoB I was thinking about. I see Jaddeth in much the same way as Trell. Telsin wasn't Trell, she was taking up the mantle to become Trell. I figured that's what was going on with Wyrn, trying to earn the Jaddeth mantle. 1
alder24 Posted February 23, 2023 Posted February 23, 2023 2 hours ago, CMac716 said: First, given that Kel was the Sovereign and helped the south immediately after Sazed changed the world, it drastically shortens the time frame in which he got his body back. He was a Cog Shadow trapped in the Cog Realm before Sazed took the shards then helping Malwash survive right after. Seems likely Sazed had to of helped because of this. The coppermind stated Kel came to the south 12 years Post-Catacendre, but I don't see any source for this, nor do I remember it from books. 2 hours ago, CMac716 said: Third, while on the topic of Avatars, the way Autonomy sustains and empowers Telsin sounds similar to Elantrians in general. Is there any possibility that the Dor is choosing Avatars to protect itself? It might not even be an intentional thing, just a result of the power being in the Cog realm instead of the Spiritual, not enough of a buffer between the power and the physical realm maybe. Is this similar? The same thing was done by Vin to Elend as Preservation and Ruin to Marsh at the end of HoA, they both provide power to their champions directly. 2 hours ago, CMac716 said: Fourth, Autonomy isn't as technologically advanced as we think. She knows what is capable, but Telsin said that Autonomy was hoping the Set could figure out self propelled rocketry for her. Yet the Men of Red and Gold look to be highly advanced soldiers or constructs of some kind. She gave knowledge of ballistic missiles to Set, and I highly doubt she would give that if Taldain hadn't figured it out already. So that's at least 40-60 years ahead of Scadrial. We don't know what the Men of Red and Gold were, but they were capable of destroying Scadrial's civilization, so I doubt just regular, Earth-modern soldiers would do a job like that.
CMac716 Posted February 24, 2023 Author Posted February 24, 2023 I'm not saying Autonomy's home world isn't more advanced than the systems we've seen, it likely is, just in other ways. If I had to create the MoRaG with what we've already seen, I think you could do it by starting with something like Kalad's Phantoms, drill a bunch of anchor points all over and attach Bavadinium plating. You're only awakening the phantom for 50 Breaths, but it's now immune to investiture. Give them guns like Nahz had in the broadsheats and they're likely the most deadly army around and completely under her control. Plus, she likes co-opting others magic systems so it would fit. Elantrians sound avatar-ish at least. Powered directly by the Dor. Sustains and powers them. They don't need to eat or sleep and it heals them. Just felt similar to me.
alder24 Posted February 24, 2023 Posted February 24, 2023 14 minutes ago, CMac716 said: If I had to create the MoRaG with what we've already seen, I think you could do it by starting with something like Kalad's Phantoms, drill a bunch of anchor points all over and attach Bavadinium plating. You're only awakening the phantom for 50 Breaths, but it's now immune to investiture. Give them guns like Nahz had in the broadsheats and they're likely the most deadly army around and completely under her control. Plus, she likes co-opting others magic systems so it would fit. Bavadinium isn't gold, it's "a silvery metal with a red cast to it, and dark red spots similar to rust". 16 minutes ago, CMac716 said: Elantrians sound avatar-ish at least. Powered directly by the Dor. Sustains and powers them. They don't need to eat or sleep and it heals them. Just felt similar to me. Returned works pretty much the same way. Fused as well.
CMac716 Posted February 24, 2023 Author Posted February 24, 2023 Ngl, I always pictured it as gold with hints of red through it. Like a pearlescent shine, not sure why I thought it was gold. But the rest of the construct stands. Would be a different metal is all. I just figured that it would be bavadinium since they're supposed to be the "bearers of the final metal" Or perhaps the trellium we've seen is an alloy of bavadinium. Atium from Era 1 was retconned to be alloyed with electrum because WoB is that anyone can burn any god metal, could be something similar. We also don't see anyone try to burn it, which kinda makes me curious what it would do to someone... Returned and Fused are just Cog Shadows stuck back in a body. Fused I could kinda see since we know almost nothing about how Odium keeps them from going to the beyond, but Returned survive off investiture and need a steady supply. Another random thought occurred to me too. A number 5. If the concentration of invested individuals creates an opportunity for a perpendicularity being opened, could that be part of the reason the KR were disbanded? Don't want a tower full of invested people creating a backdoor. Elantris had one near the city too. Maybe there's one around the Court of Gods? 1
alder24 Posted February 25, 2023 Posted February 25, 2023 12 hours ago, CMac716 said: Or perhaps the trellium we've seen is an alloy of bavadinium. Atium from Era 1 was retconned to be alloyed with electrum because WoB is that anyone can burn any god metal, could be something similar. We also don't see anyone try to burn it, which kinda makes me curious what it would do to someone... It can be but it's unlikely. Harmony said it himself that it should be called Bavadinium, so it is as close to confirmation as we can get without Brandon confirming it in WoB. 12 hours ago, CMac716 said: Returned and Fused are just Cog Shadows stuck back in a body. Fused I could kinda see since we know almost nothing about how Odium keeps them from going to the beyond, but Returned survive off investiture and need a steady supply. Your description of Elandrians fits them. Fused are just more efficient types of Cognitive Shadow. 12 hours ago, CMac716 said: Another random thought occurred to me too. A number 5. If the concentration of invested individuals creates an opportunity for a perpendicularity being opened, could that be part of the reason the KR were disbanded? Don't want a tower full of invested people creating a backdoor. Elantris had one near the city too. Maybe there's one around the Court of Gods? There is something more to it like liquid Investiture. But Why would Radiants fear new perpendicularity when they already had 10 Oathgates and 4 Radiants that can access and travel there. We already know the reason of Recreance, perpendicularity doesn't pose a threat.
IlstrawberrySeed Posted February 25, 2023 Posted February 25, 2023 5 hours ago, alder24 said: There is something more to it like liquid Investiture. But Why would Radiants fear new perpendicularity when they already had 10 Oathgates and 4 Radiants that can access and travel there. We already know the reason of Recreance, perpendicularity doesn't pose a threat. How far are you in the SA
alder24 Posted February 25, 2023 Posted February 25, 2023 9 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said: How far are you in the SA All? Why?
IlstrawberrySeed Posted February 25, 2023 Posted February 25, 2023 19 minutes ago, alder24 said: All? Why? Because if you haddn't read RoW, I would have said there is more to muddy it. If you'd read RoW, I wanted to know why you said that, cause I don't know why.
alder24 Posted February 25, 2023 Posted February 25, 2023 (edited) 30 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said: Because if you haddn't read RoW, I would have said there is more to muddy it. If you'd read RoW, I wanted to know why you said that, cause I don't know why. How would perpendicularity cause destruction of Roshar while there is 22 gates already open on it? Edit: moreover they were in the Tower for thousends of years and it took only 6 or so years on Scadrial to made one. Edited February 25, 2023 by alder24
IlstrawberrySeed Posted February 25, 2023 Posted February 25, 2023 1 minute ago, alder24 said: How would perpendicularity cause destruction of Roshar while there is 22 gates already open on it? I don't agree with their statement either, but you said we know why the recreance happened. I wanted to know why you said that.
alder24 Posted February 25, 2023 Posted February 25, 2023 5 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said: I don't agree with their statement either, but you said we know why the recreance happened. I wanted to know why you said that. I don't understand what you mean. There were many reasons, but the main one was to save Roshar from becoming like Ashyn, destroyed by Surges. Perpendicularity like that has nothing to do with Surges nor can cause destruction, nor would another gate between realms close to the Tower be a problem, it would likely be even an advantage as it could quickly get under Radiant's influence and fees.
IlstrawberrySeed Posted February 25, 2023 Posted February 25, 2023 11 minutes ago, alder24 said: I don't understand what you mean. There were many reasons, but the main one was to save Roshar from becoming like Ashyn, destroyed by Surges. Perpendicularity like that has nothing to do with Surges nor can cause destruction, nor would another gate between realms close to the Tower be a problem, it would likely be even an advantage as it could quickly get under Radiant's influence and fees. Do we really know that the reason spren chose that was because of that? I though the whole Mya thing was like "It doesn't have to be because of that"
alder24 Posted February 25, 2023 Posted February 25, 2023 13 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said: Do we really know that the reason spren chose that was because of that? I though the whole Mya thing was like "It doesn't have to be because of that" Yes. RoW ch 113 Spoiler “If what she said is true,” Adolin said, “then you have no further excuse for refusing humankind the bonds they need.” “Don’t we?” Blended asked. “For centuries, my kind told ourselves an easy lie, yes. That humans had been selfish. That humans had murdered. But easy answers often are, so we can be excused. “This truth, though, means a greater problem is. Thousands of spren chose death instead of letting the Radiants continue. Does this not worry you more? They truly believed that—as humans claimed at the time— Surgebinding would destroy the world. That the solution was to end the orders of Radiants. Suddenly, at the cost of many lives.” “Did you know the full cost, Maya?” Adolin asked, the question suddenly occurring to him. “Did you and your Radiants know that you would become deadeyes?” Adolin felt Maya searching deep, pushing through her exhaustion, seeking ... memories that were difficult for her to access. Eventual ly, she shook her head and whispered, “Pain. Yes. Death? No. Maybe.” Adolin sat beside her, letting her lean against him. “Why, Maya? Why were you willing to do it?” “To save ... save...” She sagged and shook her head. “To save us from something worse,” Adolin said, then looked to Blended. 1
CMac716 Posted March 1, 2023 Author Posted March 1, 2023 So, I think we're forgetting that the KR shut the Oathgates and disbanded at the same time. After which, the one order that remained believed it was imperative they kill budding Radiants. So, I stand by my reasoning that they may have wanted to prevent someone from using the collective of Surgebinders in the same way Autonomy used the group of Allomancers. Yes, they'd have to bring a pool of raw investiture it would seem, but Roshar is brimming with raw investiture. It's part of why worldhoppers are interested in it. It may have even allowed Odium to backdoor the Oathpact 2
Argenti he/him Posted April 2, 2023 Posted April 2, 2023 On 3/1/2023 at 4:22 PM, CMac716 said: It may have even allowed Odium to backdoor the Oathpact Huh!? That's not how perpendicularites work? They are just points where the lines between the three realms blur, you can walk from the cognitive to the physical or vis versa. A bunch of investiture in one spot isn't going to do much to break a binding forged by a God. (Especially since cultivation's perpendicularity is just sitting there, If they could use it to break or get around the oath pact, they would have.)
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