Harmonium Alloys

[Elder]

A lot of the study on Harmonium has been focused on what it can do with Malwish Tech, what works and what doesn’t work when trying to split it into Atium and Lerasium, and explosive potential.  

I have this vague memory of Harmonium having no alloys, but I can’t seem to find any reference to it.  The stuff is fairly new, and folks in the Basin really haven’t experimented with it much.  So it stands to reason people may not have discovered the alloys yet.  If my memory isn’t wrong, could someone help me with the reference?

On the other hand, for what it’s worth, alkali metals can be alloyed with Gold at the very least (https://www.nature.com/articles/152215a0). Ironically, that’s one of the two metals that we know the alloys of with Atium.  We also know what happens with Lerasium Alloys.  So what might one accomplish with a Harmonium Alloy, if it’s possible?

[lacrossedeamon]

Well some people believe that if you could safely burn Harmonium it would make you a full feruchemist so by that logic an alloy would make you the related ferring but I’m not sold on that actually being Harmonium’s Allomantic ability.

[Elder]

2 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Well some people believe that if you could safely burn Harmonium it would make you a full feruchemist so by that logic an alloy would make you the related ferring but I’m not sold on that actually being Harmonium’s Allomantic ability.

Does it have to be an Allomantic ability?  What if Feruchemy is actually granted via feruchemy.  Allomancy is granted via Allomancy….

Just a thought.

I do think that Alloying Harmonium could make it safer.  Maybe.  I can’t imagine any one alloy being more likely to grant Feruchemy than another.  Alloys might grant single metal Feruchemy I suppose, just like you can alloy Lerasium to make a misting instead of having it pure to make a Mistborn.

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Elder

[lacrossedeamon]

25 minutes ago, Elder said:

Does it have to be an Allomantic ability?  What if Feruchemy is actually granted via feruchemy.  Allomancy is granted via Allomancy….

Just a thought.

I do think that Alloying Harmonium could make it safer.  Maybe.  I can’t imagine any one alloy being more likely to grant Feruchemy than another.  Alloys might grant single metal Feruchemy I suppose, just like you can alloy Lerasium to make a misting instead of having it pure to make a Mistborn.

 

How would you gain Feruchemy feruchemically though? What would you be storing in order to tap later that grants the ability? It does bring up the question if any Scadrian can burn Lerasium and Atium without originally being an Allomancer can any Scadrian tap and store via a Harmonium metalmind without being a Feruchemist? I think there is a theory that since becoming a Mistborn is just a side effect of A-Lerasium that its actual effect is forging a greater Connection with the Shard. So it might be a Lerasium-Harmonium alloy is what would grant Feruchemy as a side effect.

[alder24]

Feruchemy can be granted by the use of god metals (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14146), and because during the times of first Feruchemists there was no Harmony, only Ruin and Preservation, and alloying Atium and Lerasium doesn't produce Harmonium (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/374/#e12145 and https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3640) it means that you can use just Atium or Lerasium to become a Fercunemist. I do think as well, that using Lerasium and its alloys as a metalminds could be a part of becoming a Feruchemist. So Lerasium would act like an unkeyed metalmind granting you ability, similar to how medallions work. When you store in it for the first time, you key it to your identity. Problem with just this is that Lerasium is not used up - by burning Lerasium you're using it to extend your spiritweb which makes you an Allomancer. Storing an attribute in metalmind doesn't use it. However maybe you have to first store an attributes in Lerasium, then burn it like a compounder would, tricking the system and instead of making you an Allomancer, it would make you an Feruchemist. Using Lerasium alloys this way would turn you into ferrings. Or to make a Feruchemist you need Lerasium-Atium alloy, not just pure Lerasium. That's at least my theory.

About Harmonium, I don't think we have any indications that it can't be alloyed. It's a god metal, so it works a bit different than regular metals. Alloying it would most likely make it less reactive and safer to handle. But what are the effects of Harmonium and Harmonium alloys when burned - we have no idea. It can be anything. Probably when Harmonium alloys would be used with Malwish tech like primer cubes, e.g. Harmonium-steel would allow you to charge it only with A-steel or F-steel (if it can), similar to how Lerasium alloys makes you only a Ferring.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

About Harmonium, I don't think we have any indications that it can't be alloyed. It's a god metal, so it works a bit different than regular metals. Alloying it would most likely make it less reactive and safer to handle. But what are the effects of Harmonium and Harmonium alloys when burned - we have no idea. It can be anything. Probably when Harmonium alloys would be used with Malwish tech like primer cubes, e.g. Harmonium-steel would allow you to charge it only with A-steel or F-steel (if it can), similar to how Lerasium alloys makes you only a Ferring.

I would think it more likely that an alloy prevents the innate abilities of the metal (my term for what it, trellium,  and [Stormlight Raysdium] have) than restricts them. We never saw the innate effects of Atium or Lerasium, unless the "side effect" is lerasium's innate.

[Elder]

23 hours ago, alder24 said:

Feruchemy can be granted by the use of god metals (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14146), and because during the times of first Feruchemists there was no Harmony, only Ruin and Preservation, and alloying Atium and Lerasium doesn't produce Harmonium (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/374/#e12145 and https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3640) it means that you can use just Atium or Lerasium to become a Fercunemist. I do think as well, that using Lerasium and its alloys as a metalminds could be a part of becoming a Feruchemist. So Lerasium would act like an unkeyed metalmind granting you ability, similar to how medallions work. When you store in it for the first time, you key it to your identity. Problem with just this is that Lerasium is not used up - by burning Lerasium you're using it to extend your spiritweb which makes you an Allomancer. Storing an attribute in metalmind doesn't use it. However maybe you have to first store an attributes in Lerasium, then burn it like a compounder would, tricking the system and instead of making you an Allomancer, it would make you an Feruchemist. Using Lerasium alloys this way would turn you into ferrings. Or to make a Feruchemist you need Lerasium-Atium alloy, not just pure Lerasium. That's at least my theory.

About Harmonium, I don't think we have any indications that it can't be alloyed. It's a god metal, so it works a bit different than regular metals. Alloying it would most likely make it less reactive and safer to handle. But what are the effects of Harmonium and Harmonium alloys when burned - we have no idea. It can be anything. Probably when Harmonium alloys would be used with Malwish tech like primer cubes, e.g. Harmonium-steel would allow you to charge it only with A-steel or F-steel (if it can), similar to how Lerasium alloys makes you only a Ferring.

I’m going through Shadows of Self…… and something interesting:  

it seems that up until the “Sovereign” showed up, the Southern Scadrians didn’t have Feruchemy.  The Malwish aren’t Terris. Evidently Kelsier figured out how to create Feruchemy.  

[alder24]

29 minutes ago, Elder said:

I’m going through Shadows of Self…… and something interesting:  

it seems that up until the “Sovereign” showed up, the Southern Scadrians didn’t have Feruchemy.  The Malwish aren’t Terris. Evidently Kelsier figured out how to create Feruchemy.  

It's possible, yet not entirely. They have "seed of Feruchemy" in them, so while it wouldn't be common, weak Feruchemist or Ferrings could appear from time to time, but it's rather unlikely this happened. Kelsier didn't create Feruchemy, he gave them medallions which make them Ferrings, but they don't change their spiritual DNA, so it's not transmissible to their kids. I bet nicrosil compounding coppies what's in the nicrosilmind.

Spoiler

Comatose

So here's my last question. If there ARE people on the other side of the world, did Vin kill them all by placing the sun on their side, or do they have they're own Ruin/Preservation battle going on over there as well? Do they also have allomancy feruchemy and hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they're not dead. Yes, Rashek was aware of them. In fact, he placed them there as a reserve. I knew he wanted a 'control' group of people in case his changes to genetics ended with the race being in serious trouble. All I'll say is that he found a way other than changing them genetically to help them survive in the world he created. And since they were created by Ruin and Preservation, they have the seeds of the Three Metallic Arts in them—though without anyone among them having burned Lerasium, Allomancers would have been very rare in their population and full Mistborn unheard of.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

[Elder]

35 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It's possible, yet not entirely. They have "seed of Feruchemy" in them, so while it wouldn't be common, weak Feruchemist or Ferrings could appear from time to time, but it's rather unlikely this happened. Kelsier didn't create Feruchemy, he gave them medallions which make them Ferrings, but they don't change their spiritual DNA, so it's not transmissible to their kids. I bet nicrosil compounding coppies what's in the nicrosilmind.

  Hide contents

Comatose

So here's my last question. If there ARE people on the other side of the world, did Vin kill them all by placing the sun on their side, or do they have they're own Ruin/Preservation battle going on over there as well? Do they also have allomancy feruchemy and hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they're not dead. Yes, Rashek was aware of them. In fact, he placed them there as a reserve. I knew he wanted a 'control' group of people in case his changes to genetics ended with the race being in serious trouble. All I'll say is that he found a way other than changing them genetically to help them survive in the world he created. And since they were created by Ruin and Preservation, they have the seeds of the Three Metallic Arts in them—though without anyone among them having burned Lerasium, Allomancers would have been very rare in their population and full Mistborn unheard of.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

Or…… and hear me out, maybe there are ways to make play with those medallions to change that DNA after all.  So far we haven’t seen any God-Metal Medallions. Maybe a Lerasium Medalion with Nicrosil?  Maybe Preservation gave the ancient Terris God Metal unkeyed metal minds.

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Elder said:

Or…… and hear me out, maybe there are ways to make play with those medallions to change that DNA after all.  So far we haven’t seen any God-Metal Medallions. Maybe a Lerasium Medalion with Nicrosil?  Maybe Preservation gave the ancient Terris God Metal unkeyed metal minds.

Few problems - first, where would Kelsier get Lerasium from, as the last bead of Lerasium was used by Elend, and there was nothing left? The same goes for Atium - Marsh had the last beads of it. Second, Kelsier would try to use it on himself first, and from epilogue 4 it seems like Kel wasn't aware that it wouldn't work on him, as that's what Harmony told him - if he already tried this, Harmony would know and wouldn't have to tell him. It's possible that using god metal medallions could make you permanently into Mistborn/Feruchemist somehow, but I doubt Kel had access to any god metal other than Harmonium after Catacendre.

[Elder]

A thought

Harmonium is not an alloy of Lerasium and Atium.  
 

Perhaps the first metalminds were the alloy of Lerasium and Atium.  The Ancient Terris did know both Preservation and Ruin.

Either way, I still believe that Feruchemy is gained via Feruchemy, no need to burn anything.  Whether it was Lerasium or Leratium, in my mind, the first Feruchemists invested their spirit into the Godmetal, and when they drew it back out, their souls were expanded.

that would also explain why Kelsier can’t do it himself:  he’s already using Hemalurgy to pin himself to his body.  He can’t invest himself into something else.  

Just a hunch mind you.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Elder

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Do we know pure shardmetals can be used Fuerochemically?

[Elder]

20 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Do we know pure shardmetals can be used Fuerochemically?

I don’t think we do.  That said, it is clear that God Metals can be used in multiple ways.  We’ve seen multiple God-Metals metals used in Hemalurgy, Allomancy, technology, explosives (including wmds), Fabrial Mechanics, and in weaponry, both as pure manifestation and incorporated into spears and daggers.  While I’d argue against universal application for each God Metal, it certainly wouldn’t surprise me if some had Feruchemical applications.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

1 hour ago, Elder said:

I don’t think we do.  That said, it is clear that God Metals can be used in multiple ways.  We’ve seen multiple God-Metals metals used in Hemalurgy, Allomancy, technology, explosives (including wmds), Fabrial Mechanics, and in weaponry, both as pure manifestation and incorporated into spears and daggers.  While I’d argue against universal application for each God Metal, it certainly wouldn’t surprise me if some had Feruchemical applications.

I would assume so, but It would be an interesting twist if Fuerochemistry doesn't work when pure due to not being universal. Alternatively, shardminds might not be able to be keyed.

[Elder]

50 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I would assume so, but It would be an interesting twist if Fuerochemistry doesn't work when pure due to not being universal. Alternatively, shardminds might not be able to be keyed.

Interesting point.  I honestly don’t know….

Sazed could make a set of Shard level metal minds.  Those could be very interesting.

this also brings a bit of a non-sequitur to mind:

Harmony’s power is in the Mists, just like Preservation’s used to be.

On the other hand, Harmonium reacts explosively to water, including water vapor.

So technically Harmony can make Harmonium explode…….

Maybe the Mists  are more of the Preservation Side, while the Metal is more the Ruin side.

[HSuperLee he/him]

Now y'all have got me wondering if the excisors that are used to create medallions are some kind of harmonium alloy. I know people have generally theorized that hemalurgy is involved, but it might help explain why making medallions is so complicated and why there are only feruchemy medallions so far. It might just be that the alloys necessary for allomancy medallions haven't been discovered yet.