Kaladin vs Kaladin

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

No surges.  Kaladin with pewter vs Kaladin with stormlight.

With shardblades.

Without shardblades.

With plate.

Without plate. 

With all shards.

Without any shards. 

 

I assume shardplate removes most of the strength benefits of pewter but pewter would maintain the speed advantage and they both offer near perfect balance.   

[Kuldak]

Just so I'm clear on the parameters of the question, we are assuming two highly skilled spear fighters with the exact same experience/skill, and the only variables are Alomantic Pewter vs Passive Stormlight (healing, speed, etc, but no lashings).

 

No Shards - Would depend on how much stormlight/pewter is allowed, but I would probably side on stormlight. Pewter seems to grant more physical strength than stormlight, but passive stormlight seems to provide similar agility boosts, and similar if not better stamina improvements while they are holding stormlight. If the pewter user can damage them enough while not taking too much damage they could win, but with the skill/agility/stamina being even I see it as mostly a wash in terms of number of strikes getting through on each side, and while pewter does allow them to push through the pain, it does not completely negate the damage the way stormlight does.

Shardblade (I'm going to assume this is in spear form since Kaladin is by no means skilled with a sword) but no plate: Stormlight wins, as stormlight can heal a shardblade wound, pewter cannot.

Plate but no shardblade: Giving this to stormlight as well. The plate negates most if not all of the benefits of pewter over stormlight, and the stormlight user would have more stormlight to power their plate, so would win in a battle of attrition.

With all shards - similar to the With Plate only fight above, the benefits of pewter are largely negated by the plate, and the stormlight user wins through attrition. Plus they would have the ability to heal from shardblade wounds if they still had stormlight at that point.

 

Largely this boils down to the healing provided by passive stormlight allowing them to shrug off blows better than the pewter user and winning through attrition. That being said, there is always a chance in any of these fights that a lucky blow could happen, especially in fights with shardspears, so it is not a 100% to either side, but by and large stormlight healing is too large a gap to overcome.

[alder24]

So from Coppermind about Stormlight:

Quote

Stormlight gives the user a sensation of increased energy, restlessness and desire to move, with several people comparing it to a storm raging inside them. While held, it will automatically heal wounds, exhaustion and even conditions such as poisoning or drunkenness. [...] Stormlight doesn't give the Surgebinder much additional raw strength.

Spoiler

Sandastron

I’m very curious about pewter. How much Feruchemical pewter, steel, and gold would you have to take in in order to be equal to burning pewter and flaring.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh…um, okay. So you wanna...ok, let’s back this up. So you wanna know feruchemically what would it take to match burning?

Sandastron

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay. So burning pewter, I kind of imagine...roughly doubling. Roughly.

Sandastron

Double your strength?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But without the muscle mass change, it’s a magical boost. So because of that it has some pretty dramatic effects, like when Vin jumps and things like that.

Sandastron

So it’s only a double, so would flaring it bring it any higher?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Flaring would go higher.

Sandastron

Would it be like triple?

Brandon Sanderson

Maybe like triple.

Sandastron

Maybe like tripling...that’s fascinating. So I always thought normal burning would triple it and flaring would quadruple.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah I always felt kind of double. You won’t see people burning pewter and lifting a car.

Sandastron

Right, exactly.

Brandon Sanderson

You see people burning pewter and delivering a really solid punch.

Sandastron

Gotcha, thank you. That is fascinating…and would it be about doubling speed and healing ability?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven’t worked out the numbers on that exactly. I have an instinct that says thatburning pewter, healing goes a bit faster but I have to look in the books and see what we’ve done in the past and then kind of canonize it.

Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016)

I admit I don't remember if Stormlight gives more strength or speed, but Coppermind suggests it doesn't, so Kal with pewter would be 2 or 3 times stronger, and somewhat faster, more agile and more balanced, than Kal with Stormlight. Kal with Stormlight can heal however. Both don't feel exhaustion. So while pewter makes you stronger, faster and able to withhold wounds, Stormlight can heal, so I would say they cancel each other out. 

I assuming dead shards are used in this fight, for simplicity and to make it more equal.

So in the fight without shards, Kal with pewter would have just a slight edge, as both can take more damage, but he can strike much harder than the other, draining other Kal's Stormlight faster. Pewter Kal would be much harder to hit because of his speed and balance.

With Shardblades, I say the balance shifts to Stormlight Kal. He can heal a Shardblade cut, pewter Kal doesn't. He needs to only strike him once and precisely, and he wins. Stronger hits are not that advantageous with Shardblades.

With Shardplates and blades - I think this would be mostly an equal fight, with a very slight edge for pewter Kal. He can strike harder and therefore faster damage the Shardplate, and he can immobilize Stormlight Kal that way - Stormlight would be drained out of him to repair damaged plate, so he would last much longer. Kal with pewter could most likely move with locked Shardplate on him. That's why I say it's equal.

With only Shradplates - I think it would look similar to the one with Shardblades, but Kal with pewter can strike and break the plate more easily, while Kal with Stormlight would have a much harder time doing that. Mostly equal fight.

Edited January 20, 2023 by alder24

[therunner]

51 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Sandastron

I’m very curious about pewter. How much Feruchemical pewter, steel, and gold would you have to take in in order to be equal to burning pewter and flaring.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh…um, okay. So you wanna...ok, let’s back this up. So you wanna know feruchemically what would it take to match burning?

Sandastron

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay. So burning pewter, I kind of imagine...roughly doubling. Roughly.

Sandastron

Double your strength?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But without the muscle mass change, it’s a magical boost. So because of that it has some pretty dramatic effects, like when Vin jumps and things like that.

Sandastron

So it’s only a double, so would flaring it bring it any higher?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Flaring would go higher.

Sandastron

Would it be like triple?

Brandon Sanderson

Maybe like triple.

Sandastron

Maybe like tripling...that’s fascinating. So I always thought normal burning would triple it and flaring would quadruple.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah I always felt kind of double. You won’t see people burning pewter and lifting a car.

Sandastron

Right, exactly.

Brandon Sanderson

You see people burning pewter and delivering a really solid punch.

Sandastron

Gotcha, thank you. That is fascinating…and would it be about doubling speed and healing ability?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven’t worked out the numbers on that exactly. I have an instinct that says thatburning pewter, healing goes a bit faster but I have to look in the books and see what we’ve done in the past and then kind of canonize it.

Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016)

I admit I don't remember if Stormlight gives more strength or speed, but Coppermind suggests it doesn't, so Kal with pewter would be 2 or 3 times stronger, faster, more agile and more balanced, than Kal with Stormlight. Kal with Stormlight can heal however. Both don't feel exhaustion. So while pewter makes you stronger, faster and able to withhold wounds, Stormlight can heal, so I would say they cancel each other out.

Pewter is only confirmed to 2-3 strength, not all the other physical attributes.
What is shown in books is relatively consistent with being able to maintain top human characteristic for longer stretches of time (i.e. sprint without tiring for hours), and not much improvement in speed on a whole.

The agility and balance improvements are similar for Stormlight, though we don't have direct comparison.
Lift is sometimes given as counterpoint to agility enhancements of Stormlight, however she is actually using Lifelight, so different effects can be expected.

So I would say pewter burner is far stronger, and a bit faster, agility/balance about on par, and heal far worse then someone holding Stormlight.

Given same hourly-amount I think Pewter-Kal would have a mild advantage, but it is difficult to say. Stormlight-Kal could heal snapped neck, Pewter-Kal could not for example.

I think all the others would go to Stormlight-Kal, as Pewter-Kal has no way to heal Shardblade wounds, and no way to regenerate plate.

57 minutes ago, alder24 said:

With Shardplates and blades - I think this would be mostly an equal fight, with a very slight edge for pewter Kal. He can strike harder and therefore faster damage the Shardplate, and he can immobilize Stormlight Kal that way - Stormlight would be drained out of him to repair damaged plate, so he would last much longer. Kal with pewter could most likely move with locked Shardplate on him. That's why I say it's equal.

I don't see how pewter-Kal would have advanate, his Shardplate cannot heal at all, whereas Kal with Stormlight can heal his. Additionally, Shardplate improves strength far beyond Pewter, so there is a question if the pewter would do anything at all.
Pewter-Kal would get locked in plate (if deadplate), or would have to dismiss his plate (if living plate) far sooner than Stormlight-Kal.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

6 minutes ago, therunner said:

Pewter is only confirmed to 2-3 strength, not all the other physical attributes.
What is shown in books is relatively consistent with being able to maintain top human characteristic for longer stretches of time (i.e. sprint without tiring for hours), and not much improvement in speed on a whole.

The agility and balance improvements are similar for Stormlight, though we don't have direct comparison.
Lift is sometimes given as counterpoint to agility enhancements of Stormlight, however she is actually using Lifelight, so different effects can be expected.

So I would say pewter burner is far stronger, and a bit faster, agility/balance about on par, and heal far worse then someone holding Stormlight.

Given same hourly-amount I think Pewter-Kal would have a mild advantage, but it is difficult to say. Stormlight-Kal could heal snapped neck, Pewter-Kal could not for example.

I think all the others would go to Stormlight-Kal, as Pewter-Kal has no way to heal Shardblade wounds, and no way to regenerate plate.

I don't see how pewter-Kal would have advanate, his Shardplate cannot heal at all, whereas Kal with Stormlight can heal his. Additionally, Shardplate improves strength far beyond Pewter, so there is a question if the pewter would do anything at all.
Pewter-Kal would get locked in plate (if deadplate), or would have to dismiss his plate (if living plate) far sooner than Stormlight-Kal.

We see Vin jump clean over hams head and the tip of his staff when sparring.  She jumped 7+feet with pewter.  Also the sprint across the dominance says a lot about pewters capabilities... as they were going the speed of a galloping horse (the slowest of the 2 was going the speed of a galloping horse).   We see stormlight allow bridge 4 to pretty well sprint their entire race but there is nothing spoken for the speed.  When I read it it seemed that they were faster than their fellow non stormlight companions, not because they were faster but because they didn't have to pace themselves.   The same idea as pewter in neither feeling like they have to pace themselves but pewter specifically commented on moving at horse pace where we don't have a similar comparison from stormlight.  

I think that the shardplate would negate strength benefits but you can still only move it as fast as you can move your body.  The increased strength of a mistborns fast twitch muscles suggest they can likely move their limbs faster snapping them harder and quicker through the air... no one is timing punching speed or how fast you can move your legs in the books but we know athletes can train for that in our world and it is via these fast twitch muscle fibers.  The draw back to fast twitch muscle usage is it eats up energy and is only good for sprints... what we see is pewterarms sprinting 12 hours straight. It makes a lot of sense that the fast twitch muscle fibers are working at 2-3x their capacity as well which would allow for more agility in the plate and without it.  

I like hearing everyone's thoughts.  Stormlight healing is a huge bonus.  But healing uses up more stormlight.  Each combatant given an equal part of stormlight and pewter the question is... can a pewter arm maneuver well enough to land enough hits more than the stormlight user to drain the stormlight fast enough.  At an hour of each I would tend to agree that the stormlight user would likely edge out with blades and potentially with plate.  

If they each had 10 minutes worth we still wouldn't know how quickly the stormlight would be reduced per hit.  

Kaladins fight in the arena shows us that stormlight does get used up faster when healing.  Thanks to plot armor he never heals so much that he has nothing left in the tank against an opponent who would still have plenty of pewter.  

I think the pewter arm could land a lot more shots in all scenarios.  How much stormlight it takes to heal each shot is up for debate.  Pewters lack of healing the 1 shot kills is definately a deciding factor for the shots they do take.  

 

Side question.  Do you think the gravitational pull of worlds would change your mind?  

Both using deadplate / deadblades.  Pewter Kal has trained and lived on Scadrial (100% cosmere standard).  Stormlight Kal has trained and lived on Roshar (70% cosmere standard).  They meet on a planet with gravitation of 85% the cosmere standard.  

[therunner]

1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

We see Vin jump clean over hams head and the tip of his staff when sparring.  She jumped 7+feet with pewter. 

Vin is also an outlier, and her feats with pewter consistently surprise other Mistborn and other Pewter-arms.

1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 Also the sprint across the dominance says a lot about pewters capabilities... as they were going the speed of a galloping horse (the slowest of the 2 was going the speed of a galloping horse).   We see stormlight allow bridge 4 to pretty well sprint their entire race but there is nothing spoken for the speed.  When I read it it seemed that they were faster than their fellow non stormlight companions, not because they were faster but because they didn't have to pace themselves.   The same idea as pewter in neither feeling like they have to pace themselves but pewter specifically commented on moving at horse pace where we don't have a similar comparison from stormlight. 

Speed of regular galloping horse is comparable or slightly beyond human sprinting speed, it is not anywhere near doubled.
Pewter arms are nowhere described as inhumanly fast as far as I know.

I do think pewter does have edge in speed over stormlight, but it is not by that much.

3 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think that the shardplate would negate strength benefits but you can still only move it as fast as you can move your body.  The increased strength of a mistborns fast twitch muscles suggest they can likely move their limbs faster snapping them harder and quicker through the air... no one is timing punching speed or how fast you can move your legs in the books but we know athletes can train for that in our world and it is via these fast twitch muscle fibers.  The draw back to fast twitch muscle usage is it eats up energy and is only good for sprints... what we see is pewterarms sprinting 12 hours straight. It makes a lot of sense that the fast twitch muscle fibers are working at 2-3x their capacity as well which would allow for more agility in the plate and without it. 

Shardplate improves speed, agility and reflexes of wearer (on top of the great strength boost). It works sort-of like powered armor.
So I don't think pewter-burner would maintain any speed edge in that scenario.

4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Side question.  Do you think the gravitational pull of worlds would change your mind?  

Both using deadplate / deadblades.  Pewter Kal has trained and lived on Scadrial (100% cosmere standard).  Stormlight Kal has trained and lived on Roshar (70% cosmere standard).  They meet on a planet with gravitation of 85% the cosmere standard.  

Interesting question.
Pewter-Kal is shorter but stronger, Stormlight-Kal is taller with better reach, however a bit weaker.
I think with deadplate/deadblade situation nothing would really change, without Shards I would think Pewter-Kal would have greater advantage then otherwise.
With only deadblade Stormlight-Kal maintains advantage and improves it a little bit, as reach is important and strength less so.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

9 minutes ago, therunner said:

Vin is also an outlier, and her feats with pewter consistently surprise other Mistborn and other Pewter-arms.

Speed of regular galloping horse is comparable or slightly beyond human sprinting speed, it is not anywhere near doubled.
Pewter arms are nowhere described as inhumanly fast as far as I know.

I do think pewter does have edge in speed over stormlight, but it is not by that much.

Shardplate improves speed, agility and reflexes of wearer (on top of the great strength boost). It works sort-of like powered armor.
So I don't think pewter-burner would maintain any speed edge in that scenario.

Interesting question.
Pewter-Kal is shorter but stronger, Stormlight-Kal is taller with better reach, however a bit weaker.
I think with deadplate/deadblade situation nothing would really change, without Shards I would think Pewter-Kal would have greater advantage then otherwise.
With only deadblade Stormlight-Kal maintains advantage and improves it a little bit, as reach is important and strength less so.

This is actually exactly why I chose Kaladin.  He is as much an outlier for stormlight as Vin is to pewter.  Taking our examples of what can be done from Kal in books and applying it while handwaving the examples from Vin is sort of what I wanted to avoid in this battle.  

Kaladin level stormlight and Kaladin with Vin levels of pewter.   They are both outliers and Kaladin is the best combatant as far as soldiers go in the cosmere.  

As for the gravity difference.  I agree with the reach advantage going to Roshar Kal.  I think the fact that Roshar Kaladin is fighting against his own weight makes a bigger difference in all but shardplate.   

If Roshar Kaladin weights 220 on roshar he is suddenly 258.72lbs. 

If Scadrial Kaladin weights 195 he is suddenly 165.75lbs.  

Pewter already favors the Scadrial Kaladin in strength and likely speed.  Now he is lighter on his feet.  Roshar Kaladin is not gaining magical strength or speed and suddenly weighs 117% of his normal weight.  Nearly 39lbs in this case.  

As far as horses and humans go.... the average male sprinters on earth are able to travel 19.52mph. As far as horse pace on earth a galloping horse could be going anywhere from 25-30mph.   Even if we look at the lower end to make up for the fact that horses are slower on scadrial we are still seeing pewter arms moving 125% faster than their counter parts... and again in this case gait makes a large difference as Kelsier would likely be holding back in that sprint with Vin.  Assuming Kaladin is Vin levels of pewter and at least the size of Kelsier he would likely out pace the average galloping horse on Scadrial. 

[therunner]

17 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Kaladin level stormlight and Kaladin with Vin levels of pewter.   They are both outliers and Kaladin is the best combatant as far as soldiers go in the cosmere.

But from what we know Kaladin is not an outlier in his usage of Stormlight alone.
He has weird things happening in highstorm and in the duel in arena (the atium like effect), but so far no-one brought those up.

Also on Vin and pewter, others speculate that her feats are due to her small size and low weight, something which would not be the case for Kaladin.

19 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Pewter already favors the Scadrial Kaladin in strength and likely speed.  Now he is lighter on his feet.  Roshar Kaladin is not gaining magical strength or speed and suddenly weighs 117% of his normal weight.  Nearly 39lbs in this case. 

Hm, good point on being lighter on his feet for Scadrian-Kal.
Now, I think Stormlight will help to Rosharan-Kal to not be hindered by the added 'weight' as much. We do have example of Bridge 4 squire running with full gear as if without it (speed wise).
Still though, it would help Scadrial-Kal being additional bit more faster.

Still don't think it would make a difference in any situation involving shards.

22 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

As far as horses and humans go.... the average male sprinters on earth are able to travel 19.52mph. As far as horse pace on earth a galloping horse could be going anywhere from 25-30mph.   Even if we look at the lower end to make up for the fact that horses are slower on scadrial we are still seeing pewter arms moving 125% faster than their counter parts... and again in this case gait makes a large difference as Kelsier would likely be holding back in that sprint with Vin.  Assuming Kaladin is Vin levels of pewter and at least the size of Kelsier he would likely out pace the average galloping horse on Scadrial. 

Yeah, but moving 25% faster is far different from moving 2x or even 3x times as fast.
And Stormlight is mentioned to help with speed at least a bit as well. So you end up with Pewter-Kal being ~15% faster then Stormlight-Kal, which is not that much.

Add in that Stormlight-Kal can heal, and they can choose to tank a hit that would allow them to strike a killing blow. An opponent who can choose to get hit without much issue has great advantage.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 minutes ago, therunner said:

Hm, good point on being lighter on his feet for Scadrian-Kal.
Now, I think Stormlight will help to Rosharan-Kal to not be hindered by the added 'weight' as much. We do have example of Bridge 4 squire running with full gear as if without it (speed wise).
Still though, it would help Scadrial-Kal being additional bit more faster.

This was, I believe, in testing what partial lashings could do to improve performance which in the case of this battle there are no surge uses.  

 

4 minutes ago, therunner said:

Yeah, but moving 25% faster is far different from moving 2x or even 3x times as fast.
And Stormlight is mentioned to help with speed at least a bit as well. So you end up with Pewter-Kal being ~15% faster then Stormlight-Kal, which is not that much.

Add in that Stormlight-Kal can heal, and they can choose to tank a hit that would allow them to strike a killing blow. An opponent who can choose to get hit without much issue has great advantage.

Yeah choosing to face tank a hit to trade is worth it.  You run into the same issues as with fencing in the modern world.  It would be like putting the olympic gold fencer against a high school fencer.  Olympic gold can get 2 or 3 hits on the high schooler and none of the hits award a point so long as the high schooler scores a single midline hit on the gold medalist.  Just face tank the hit and land your own.  The magic sword is the deciding factor in that most times.  

 

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

But from what we know Kaladin is not an outlier in his usage of Stormlight alone.
He has weird things happening in highstorm and in the duel in arena (the atium like effect), but so far no-one brought those up.

Also on Vin and pewter, others speculate that her feats are due to her small size and low weight, something which would not be the case for Kaladin.

I found a couple of WoBs on this.  

Spoiler

Questioner

Why is Kaladin so proficient-- Like naturally born to wield a spear. Is that a weapon he likes or is it a destiny for him?

Brandon Sanderson

So destiny is a strong term... I would say he has natural aptitude, but no more so than a normal person who has a natural aptitude for something. But the way the Spiritual Realm works in the cosmere and the way Connection works, there were certain things that were happening to Kaladin before they happened...

It's like Syl says in one of the books. "You didn't know me then, but I knew you then. Even though we hadn't met yet, I still knew you." You see some weird Connection things too. And these are mostly just for fun sort of cosmere connections. Like when you see Syl take on the look of Shallan standing on the beach. There's gonna be a connection there. It's forming, it doesn't exist yet, but all things are one in the Spiritual Realm, and we're just kinda seeing echoes of that. It's not meant to be destiny, it's more meant to be, "Hey there's little connections happening".

I would not say Kaladin is any more naturally gifted in that than your average professional sports player is naturally gifted in what they do.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

Spoiler

Questioner

Who is the greatest warrior in the cosmere? I think it's Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, define "warrior" versus "soldier" versus--

Questioner

Who could win at an all-out fight? Even with powers taken away, I think he could still take on a lot of the other warriors.

Brandon Sanderson

A question. Are they on a battlefield? 'Cause Kelsier just murders him in his sleep.

Questioner

Battlefield.

Brandon Sanderson

The actual soldier, battlefield, is probably Kaladin. Problem is, you could put Dalinar in his prime. And they're both pretty good. But, Kaladin is a true soldier.

Oathbringer Edinburgh signing (Dec. 2, 2017)

So I guess I have to concied a bit there.  You are right about Vins size helping in some things with pewter and hurting in others.  I dont know, then, if Vins jump makes her an outlier because she is stronger with pewter or because she is smaller.  It is really difficult to say either way what about her makes her an outlier.  

Would it make a difference in the matchup if this was lerasium levels pewterarm?  Or same conclusions.  Shards just amplify healing ability to the tipping point each time?  I think shards aside pewter comes out on top every time.  Shards included the question is more how much stormlight does healing use up?  

As for plot armor and stormlight usage (this is not the only post you will see this quote in because I think it is hilarious... 

Spoiler

Questioner

When Kaladin runs out of Stormlight, is that something you've worked out, how much Stormlight should have, and how much each move takes?

Brandon Sanderson

So, what I do is, I actually write the thing first, and then I tell my assistant, "Work out how much he needs," and then I give him that much. I work backward. Yeah, I do that a lot in books, but that's a little bit seeing how the sausage is made, there.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

[therunner]

48 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This was, I believe, in testing what partial lashings could do to improve performance which in the case of this battle there are no surge uses. 

Ah, you would be correct. I mis-remembered that, apologies.
So Scadrial-Kal would have even greater speed advantage, hmm with only Shardblade I would probably give him a win in that case.
Without shards, the healing and tanking a hit can still help (weapon getting lodge in opponent, 'Sheathing the sword' move as in WoT).

48 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Yeah choosing to face tank a hit to trade is worth it.  You run into the same issues as with fencing in the modern world.  It would be like putting the olympic gold fencer against a high school fencer.  Olympic gold can get 2 or 3 hits on the high schooler and none of the hits award a point so long as the high schooler scores a single midline hit on the gold medalist.  Just face tank the hit and land your own.  The magic sword is the deciding factor in that most times. 

Yep, though with sufficient speed advantage and precision hit to the spine would end even Stormligh-Kal I think.
But I am not sure if pewter alone would provide sufficient advantage.

48 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I found a couple of WoBs on this.  

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Why is Kaladin so proficient-- Like naturally born to wield a spear. Is that a weapon he likes or is it a destiny for him?

Brandon Sanderson

So destiny is a strong term... I would say he has natural aptitude, but no more so than a normal person who has a natural aptitude for something. But the way the Spiritual Realm works in the cosmere and the way Connection works, there were certain things that were happening to Kaladin before they happened...

It's like Syl says in one of the books. "You didn't know me then, but I knew you then. Even though we hadn't met yet, I still knew you." You see some weird Connection things too. And these are mostly just for fun sort of cosmere connections. Like when you see Syl take on the look of Shallan standing on the beach. There's gonna be a connection there. It's forming, it doesn't exist yet, but all things are one in the Spiritual Realm, and we're just kinda seeing echoes of that. It's not meant to be destiny, it's more meant to be, "Hey there's little connections happening".

I would not say Kaladin is any more naturally gifted in that than your average professional sports player is naturally gifted in what they do.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Who is the greatest warrior in the cosmere? I think it's Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, define "warrior" versus "soldier" versus--

Questioner

Who could win at an all-out fight? Even with powers taken away, I think he could still take on a lot of the other warriors.

Brandon Sanderson

A question. Are they on a battlefield? 'Cause Kelsier just murders him in his sleep.

Questioner

Battlefield.

Brandon Sanderson

The actual soldier, battlefield, is probably Kaladin. Problem is, you could put Dalinar in his prime. And they're both pretty good. But, Kaladin is a true soldier.

Oathbringer Edinburgh signing (Dec. 2, 2017)

So I guess I have to concied a bit there.  You are right about Vins size helping in some things with pewter and hurting in others.  I dont know, then, if Vins jump makes her an outlier because she is stronger with pewter or because she is smaller.  It is really difficult to say either way what about her makes her an outlier. 

I think it is sort-of both?
She is unusually strong, however for pewter that does not seem to make that much difference as the WoB implies generality of 2-3x strength improvement.

48 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Would it make a difference in the matchup if this was lerasium levels pewterarm?  Or same conclusions.  Shards just amplify healing ability to the tipping point each time?  I think shards aside pewter comes out on top every time.  Shards included the question is more how much stormlight does healing use up? 

I expect that Lerasium Mistborn would not have that much of a strength-improvemetn over regular Mistborn (e.g.  lerasium mistborn would be at best 3-4 instead of 2-3), from the same argument as above.

After this discussion I would adjust my answers a bit:
 

• No shards: Stormlight-Kal wins. While they are considerably weaker, and a bit slower, they can afford to tank a hit to go for a killing blow (i.e. spine, head, heart, etc.), which grants them great advantage. 'Sheathing the sword' technique from WoT basically.
• Shardblade only: Pewter-Kal wins, question mark? Stormlight-Kal can no longer easily tank a hit, as even a severed limb would take a moment to heal, and a hit to spine could still kill them (if I remember right). Here, the edge in speed could give Pewter-Kal a chance to kill Stormlight-Kal with a good single hit. I'd say 60-70% win chance for Pewter-Kal.
• Shardplate only: Stormlight-Kal wins, their plate can heal much longer, and physical attributes are now basically the same between the two.
• Shardplate+Shardblade: Stormlight-Kal wins, same reasoning as above.

 

Edit:

• Quote

   

  As for plot armor and stormlight usage (this is not the only post you will see this quote in because I think it is hilarious... 

    Reveal hidden contents

  Questioner

  When Kaladin runs out of Stormlight, is that something you've worked out, how much Stormlight should have, and how much each move takes?

  Brandon Sanderson

  So, what I do is, I actually write the thing first, and then I tell my assistant, "Work out how much he needs," and then I give him that much. I work backward. Yeah, I do that a lot in books, but that's a little bit seeing how the sausage is made, there.

  Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

  
  Well, at least we know that what Kal can do is internally consistent

Edited January 20, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Pewter is only confirmed to 2-3 strength, not all the other physical attributes.

Yes, that was what I wanted to write, but do it wrong. Only 2-3 times stronger rest is somewhat bigger.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

I don't see how pewter-Kal would have advanate, his Shardplate cannot heal at all, whereas Kal with Stormlight can heal his. Additionally, Shardplate improves strength far beyond Pewter, so there is a question if the pewter would do anything at all.
Pewter-Kal would get locked in plate (if deadplate), or would have to dismiss his plate (if living plate) far sooner than Stormlight-Kal.

My reasoning here was, while Shardplate increases strength, so does pewter and it's additive. So for example, I put some random numbers into it, Pewter gives 2x strength, while Shardplate 10x, which would result in 12 times stronger punch, while without pewter only 10x. So pewter Kal would be slightly stronger, faster etc. If his plate would get damaged and locked he would still be very fast, and we've seen how Kal can fight someone with Shardplate and dodge, blades and punches, so losing the Shardplate is not a death sentence yet. But the advantages of pewter are not the great in fights with plate, that's why I consider them mostly equal fights.

 

[Kuldak]

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

My reasoning here was, while Shardplate increases strength, so does pewter and it's additive. So for example, I put some random numbers into it, Pewter gives 2x strength, while Shardplate 10x, which would result in 12 times stronger punch, while without pewter only 10x. So pewter Kal would be slightly stronger, faster etc. If his plate would get damaged and locked he would still be very fast, and we've seen how Kal can fight someone with Shardplate and dodge, blades and punches, so losing the Shardplate is not a death sentence yet. But the advantages of pewter are not the great in fights with plate, that's why I consider them mostly equal fights.

My understanding of plate was that it wasn't a multiplicative increase of the user's strength, it just effectively increased their strength to a set point which was several times stronger than a normal person. A weak person in plate would be effectively as strong as a stronger person in plate, this was one of the reasons why Dalinar gave his plate to Renarin, so that his weaker constitution wouldn't hold him back in battle, and why Dalinar was still able to continue to operate at the level he was despite his increasing age.