Frustration's Firepower Index: Allomancy

[Frustration he/him]

Welcome to Frustration's Firepower Index, after the sucess of the planetary rankings, I decided I'd create another ranking system, detailing the combat potential of each magic system, starting with Allomancy.

 

Mistborn

Recommended Preparation: Be a koloss blooded Mistborn, and savant in every metal except tin. Especially Bendalloy, this will allow you to anchor a speedbubble to yourself, giving you effective superspeed. Savanting in Pewter is risky, but leads to greater advantages in combat. Own an aluminum gun and bullets, along with an aluminum grenade launcher, that produces aluminum shrapnel, a set of primer cubes, and a large aluminum flask containing metals, and a collection of osmium spheres in an aluminum pouch.

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Questioner

So my quick question: Can you use Identity (I love the speed bubbles!) to anchor speed bubbles to yourself?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, this is possible. That's less a matter of Identity. What’s gonna happen there, like, the more someone uses the powers, the more familiar and intermingled with their soul the powers become, and they are able to accomplish things that others can't. This would be like a Mistborn learning to hover a coin, right, which they can do, but most think you can't. That's the sort of level we're going with.

Necarion

So a savant could?

Brandon Sanderson

A savant could totally do that. The problem is, things moving in and out of a speed bubble, there's a transference of energy. This is how we keep speed bubbles from irradiating people when light moves through them, right, red shift. And so there's a transfer of energy directly from the Spiritual Realm, which means that moving with a speed bubble, you're gonna run into that, and it's gonna be, it's gonna cause all kinds of problems, but it would be possible.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

 

Offenses: Pewter roughly doubles a Mistborn's physical strength, and triples it while flaring, which will be increased by savanting, and  can be pushed further by duralumin.

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Sandastron

I’m very curious about pewter. How much Feruchemical pewter, steel, and gold would you have to take in in order to be equal to burning pewter and flaring.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh…um, okay. So you wanna...ok, let’s back this up. So you wanna know feruchemically what would it take to match burning?

Sandastron

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay. So burning pewter, I kind of imagine...roughly doubling. Roughly.

Sandastron

Double your strength?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But without the muscle mass change, it’s a magical boost. So because of that it has some pretty dramatic effects, like when Vin jumps and things like that.

Sandastron

So it’s only a double, so would flaring it bring it any higher?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Flaring would go higher.

Sandastron

Would it be like triple?

Brandon Sanderson

Maybe like triple.

Sandastron

Maybe like tripling...that’s fascinating. So I always thought normal burning would triple it and flaring would quadruple.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah I always felt kind of double. You won’t see people burning pewter and lifting a car.

Sandastron

Right, exactly.

Brandon Sanderson

You see people burning pewter and delivering a really solid punch.

Sandastron

Gotcha, thank you. That is fascinating…and would it be about doubling speed and healing ability?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven’t worked out the numbers on that exactly. I have an instinct that says thatburning pewter, healing goes a bit faster but I have to look in the books and see what we’ve done in the past and then kind of canonize it.

Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016)

Additionally with training they should be able to throw the primer cubes around 90 feet(Based on the average distance a person can throw a baseball). Which they should be able to increase with flared or, duralumin fueled pewter.

With steel they can shoot their osmium spheres incredible distance, considering their high density, which can be pushed even further with duralumin

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Titan_Arum

If a coinshot were to drop a gold coin of size X or an iron coin of the same size X, would the coin with more mass (the gold coin), under normal circumstances, allow the coinshot to vertically push themselves higher than they could with the coin with less mass (the iron coin)?

Brandon Sanderson

Mass is indeed a factor in anchors.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 28, 2015)

And of course, they have a gun, and if the aluminum bullets get lodged in the target they won't be able to heal in the region where the aluminum remains, which is especially true of the shrapnel of aluminum grendades.

 

Additionally with duralumin fueled emotional allomancy they can stun opponents.

And Primer cubes allow them to create suppression fields, drain away investiture, or trap their opponents in bubbles of slowed time.

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Rodrigo

What would be the difference between an aluminum and a chromium grenade, and between nicrosil and duralumin grenades?

Brandon Sanderson

We're talking specifically about the Bands of Mourning ones?

*Matt affirms*

So, what would be the difference? Aluminum would create a sort of "You can't use Allomancy in this... nearby this" most likely, yeah. Duralumin would do the opposite. You would be able to use it and then enhance someone. I haven't played with the ranges on these things yet, and so that's where we get into kind of the question mark territory. Like, right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. Does that make sense?

But, my intent is to get to the point where it's doing things like this, right. Where you could theoretically be an Aluminum Gnat, you could charge this thing up and throw. And hey, you know, you have... the Metalborn nearby are unable to use their talents. That's convenient, right? Like, I want more of the powers to be relevant and these grenades are a way to do that.

You know, Marasi's power is not the most useful on the planet to have herself. For those who don't know, she can slow down time... well, speed up time? Awkward how... the phrasing of how you do that. But basically she can make a bubble around herself where everyone outside of it moves super fast. That's not terribly useful, right? Unless you want to age, you know, really slowly.

[...]

Not really useful in combat, to be able to be like "Yeah, I'm gonna make all my enemies move really, really fast and I can't respond to them". But, she can charge up one of those grenades and toss it, it becomes real handy. For her, the grenades are more useful than the inverse, right, because speeding up someone is useful, but slowing someone down takes someone out of the battle essentially. Or a whole globe of them... globe is the wrong term, but yeah.

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

 

Defenses: Pewter gives a slight increase to both healing and ones ability to handle physical damage. With Savanthood the Mistborn will feel no pain, and can keep fighting, even with wounds that will eventually kill them. Additionally with steel they can push away metal object coming towards them. Additionally between Perwter and Tin they can remain conscious longer, and in more difficult positions than normal. With steel and iron they can create clouds of spinning metal around them, that would make approaching them dangerous.

 

Mobility: Pewter savanthood will grant an increased speed when pewter dragging, and Vin's horseshoe trick grants an increase in speed, and maneuverability. Additionally they can pull or push on nearby sources of metal, allowing them to move in the air in metal rich environments, and with portable bendalloy bubbles they can move at blinding speeds.

 

Stealth: Copperclouds allow Mistborn to hide from investiture detection, and pewter increases their balance and dexterity, while tin allows them to monitor the noise they are making, and emotional allomancy makes it harder for them to be spotted.

 

Awareness: Tin grants an increase in senses, while also allowing the user to see through mists. Bronze allows them to sense uses of investiture, including minute manipulations like summoning shardblades. Additionally any coinshot can use inquisitor's steelsight, allowing them to see trace metals, and monitor opponents that way, as well as being able to see in 360 degrees.

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Rasarr

Could a Seeker detect a Shardbearer? For example, could Vin detect Adolin's Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

That detects Kinetic Investiture, Investiture that's being used actively, so in the summoning process, you'd probably get a blip on that, but not just looking at someone and seeing it.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

Brandon Sanderson

By the way, you probably remember form book one the way that Inquisitors see. They have such a subtle touch with Steel and Iron, and their lines, that they can see via the trace metals in everyone's bodies and in the objects around them.

The thing is, any Allomancer with access to iron or steel could learn to do this. Some have figured it out, in the past, but in current times, nobody–at least, nobody the heroes know–is aware of this. Except, of course, for Marsh.

And he chose not to share it.

The Well of Ascension Annotations (Nov. 11, 2007)

 

 

Additional abilities: Electrum allows Mistborn to see the future, practiced use of this enables them to preform feats beyond their skill level. And subtle emotional allomancy can increase complacence or frustration, to allow you more room to maneuver or encourage them to make a mistake.

Spoiler

Questioner

How does electrum work?

Brandon Sanderson

Electrum can see future shadows only as far in the future as is done with atium in the books. They use it to counter atium in that they see their own future shadow fighting, and if they see their shadow get hit by an attack, they know to avoid that attack, and they change their own future. This compounds the future shadows they see, which makes it practically as effective at countering atium as atium itself.

While the scope of an electrum shadow is very limited, it could be useful in many situations. Like if you were playing tennis, you’d be able to look at your shadow and tell if you managed to hit the ball or not, and adjust accordingly. That would still take a lot of practice to master, but it could be very effective.

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 15, 2016)

 

I'll add a ranking system for the magic systems after I get a few more pages done, but for now what do you think? And what magic system should I do next?

Edited January 13, 2023 by Frustration

[StanLemon]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Awareness: Tin grants an increase in senses, while also allowing the user to see through mists. Bronze allows them to sense uses of investiture, including minute manipulations like summoning shardblades. Additionally any coinshot can use inquisitor's steelsight, allowing them to see trace metals, and monitor opponents that way.

Adding to this, Inquisitor Steelsight should give 365° vision as well

[Frustration he/him]

4 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Adding to this, Inquisitor Steelsight should give 365° vision as well

Yes that is ture, I'll add it.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Frustration

[lacrossedeamon]

Should include a section for resonances and compounding. It’s not Allomancy by itself but its a very important factor of how it interacts with feruchemy.

[Frustration he/him]

4 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Should include a section for resonances and compounding. It’s not Allomancy by itself but its a very important factor of how it interacts with feruchemy.

Resonances are nice bonuses, but we only know two of them total, and neither are particularly noteworthy. Additonally Mistborn wouldn't have noticable resonances. And Compounding as you noted is two magic systems, which I am not ready to dig into yet.

Spoiler

OrangeJedi

Do Mistborn have resonances?

Brandon Sanderson

*Hesitantly* Everybody does, but they're not as pronounced.

OrangeJedi

Is that because they just have so many powers?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Frustration

[Tglassy]

I read through and it looks like you didn't add Steel and Iron to Offenses.  Sure, having an aluminum gun may be good against beings that can heal, but anything made of metal is technically a bullet for them.  A Mistborn can kill an entire group of regular people in a few minutes with a single nail.  They could do that even better fighting soldiers wearing metal. Vin threw a group of horses using Duralumin and Steel.

Other than that, I think it's a fairly decent analysis.  

 

[StanLemon]

Ok after giving this a little thought, some more additions I think would be good.

Offenses: Steel and Iron allow for powerful offense like @Tglassy mentioned, but also due to the nature of how Pushes and Pulls work they also allow for attacks at odd angles which would prove to be difficult to predict for an enemy. For example, Pushing on one part of a metal while Pulling on another could let a Mistborn take metal from the area around them to suddenly fling in an arc towards enemies without having to have even been close to the Mistborn to begin with. Imagine an enemy trying to focus on fighting the Mistborn in front of them while pieces of metal keep flying around you trying to hit you. Another offensive advantage would be Chromium and Nicrosil, many Invested would have to worry about getting in close to a Mistborn for fear of their Investiture being drained or potentially worse, flying out of control.

Defense: Pewter gives greater agility and dexterity as well, this would make it easier to dodge attacks. Iron and Steel would also be invaluable for defense, just thinking about Kelsier's cloud of metal surrounding him and making it dangerous for anyone to get in close.

Stealth: Bendalloy could be useful here as well. Need to cross somewhere someone might see you? Bendalloy bubble and time your movement and the most they might see is a blur. Emotional Allomancy could be useful for making any guards bored and less attentive

Unsure which category to put this one in, offense maybe?: Subtle emotional Allomancy to make opponents feel overconfident and less worried about the Allomancer or to increase frustrations to increase the likeliness of their opponent making a mistake

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

I read through and it looks like you didn't add Steel and Iron to Offenses.  Sure, having an aluminum gun may be good against beings that can heal, but anything made of metal is technically a bullet for them.  A Mistborn can kill an entire group of regular people in a few minutes with a single nail.  They could do that even better fighting soldiers wearing metal. Vin threw a group of horses using Duralumin and Steel.

Other than that, I think it's a fairly decent analysis.  

 

I did add steel to offenses

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

With steel they can shoot their osmium spheres incredible distance, considering their high density, which can be pushed even further with duralumin

  Reveal hidden contents

Titan_Arum

If a coinshot were to drop a gold coin of size X or an iron coin of the same size X, would the coin with more mass (the gold coin), under normal circumstances, allow the coinshot to vertically push themselves higher than they could with the coin with less mass (the iron coin)?

Brandon Sanderson

Mass is indeed a factor in anchors.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 28, 2015)

 

 

31 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Defense: Pewter gives greater agility and dexterity as well, this would make it easier to dodge attacks.

I would just count that under mobility

31 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Iron and Steel would also be invaluable for defense, just thinking about Kelsier's cloud of metal surrounding him and making it dangerous for anyone to get in close.

That is a good point

31 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Stealth: Bendalloy could be useful here as well. Need to cross somewhere someone might see you? Bendalloy bubble and time your movement and the most they might see is a blur.

I'd still count that as mobility.

31 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Emotional Allomancy could be useful for making any guards bored and less attentive

Unsure which category to put this one in, offense maybe?: Subtle emotional Allomancy to make opponents feel overconfident and less worried about the Allomancer or to increase frustrations to increase the likeliness of their opponent making a mistake

That is a good point, I will add it.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Frustration

[lacrossedeamon]

Maybe a psyops section for emotional Allomancy?

[cometaryorbit]

I don't think savantism in most metals is worth it. It seems that in the newer canon the downsides are generally major. Apparently not bronze, though, and maybe copper - those savantisms might be worth it.

Trying for pewter savant generally kills the Allomancer. Harmony even specifically says in the epigraphs that in his opinion the benefit isn’t worth the effort. (Tarson managed it, apparently, but as a koloss-blooded he's presumably tougher than baseline human. So likely less risk of death for him.)

Edited January 12, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Frustration he/him]

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think savantism in most metals is worth it. It seems that in the newer canon the downsides are generally major, except for bronze and copper. Those savantisms might be worth it.

Trying for pewter savant generally kills the Allomancer.

That is true, however I think I should point out the goal here. I'm not trying to make the best life, or the safest way to live while an allomancer, just the most combat effective. So while savanthood has horrible side effects, and would make life a nightmare, it does provide more benefits in combat than downsides.

[cometaryorbit]

Unless you kill yourself getting there... I agree a *successful* pewter savant is stronger in combat. But I don't think it's *good strategy* for a Mistborn to try for it, since they're more likely to die in the process than the extra boost is to save their life.

(I think if you have duralumin and are careful with managing your metals - if you can say hold flakes in your mouth without burning them - there are few situations where you'd need pewter savant to survive.)

@StanLemonis right, Chromium / Leeching should definitely be mentioned. It's a powerful option against other Investiture users, and more so once Primer Cubes are available since touch isn't required anymore.

Another good trick is bullets or projectiles that are *part* aluminum or nonmetallic and *part* Pushable metal, so you can do Wax's bullet-push trick to add force/velocity but your enemies can't Push them away (like one kind of hazekiller round Ranette makes, or Vin's metal rings+obsidian arrowheads in Era 1).

Edited January 12, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Frustration he/him]

5 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Unless you kill yourself getting there...

Which is not factored in.

6 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

(I think if you have duralumin and are careful with managing your metals - if you can say hold flakes in your mouth without burning them - there are few situations where you'd need pewter savant to survive.)

But those situations do exist.

7 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

 

@StanLemonis right, Chromium / Leeching should definitely be mentioned. It's a powerful option against other Investiture users, and more so once Primer Cubes are available since touch isn't required anymore.

It is mentioned

22 hours ago, Frustration said:

And Primer cubes allow them to create suppression fields, drain away investiture, or trap their opponents in bubbles of slowed time.

  Reveal hidden contents

Rodrigo

What would be the difference between an aluminum and a chromium grenade, and between nicrosil and duralumin grenades?

Brandon Sanderson

We're talking specifically about the Bands of Mourning ones?

*Matt affirms*

So, what would be the difference? Aluminum would create a sort of "You can't use Allomancy in this... nearby this" most likely, yeah. Duralumin would do the opposite. You would be able to use it and then enhance someone. I haven't played with the ranges on these things yet, and so that's where we get into kind of the question mark territory. Like, right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. Does that make sense?

But, my intent is to get to the point where it's doing things like this, right. Where you could theoretically be an Aluminum Gnat, you could charge this thing up and throw. And hey, you know, you have... the Metalborn nearby are unable to use their talents. That's convenient, right? Like, I want more of the powers to be relevant and these grenades are a way to do that.

You know, Marasi's power is not the most useful on the planet to have herself. For those who don't know, she can slow down time... well, speed up time? Awkward how... the phrasing of how you do that. But basically she can make a bubble around herself where everyone outside of it moves super fast. That's not terribly useful, right? Unless you want to age, you know, really slowly.

[...]

Not really useful in combat, to be able to be like "Yeah, I'm gonna make all my enemies move really, really fast and I can't respond to them". But, she can charge up one of those grenades and toss it, it becomes real handy. For her, the grenades are more useful than the inverse, right, because speeding up someone is useful, but slowing someone down takes someone out of the battle essentially. Or a whole globe of them... globe is the wrong term, but yeah.

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

 

 

[cometaryorbit]

Just now, Frustration said:

Which is not factored in.

Oh ok then. Yeah if the question is "what's the most powerful Allomancer" vs "what's a good strategy for a Mistborn to pursue" sure.

[Tglassy]

Honestly, I think Vin was a Pewter Savant by the end.  She burned it constantly, and barely slept.  it was always a low burn, but it was always burning.  

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Honestly, I think Vin was a Pewter Savant by the end.  She burned it constantly, and barely slept.  it was always a low burn, but it was always burning.  

She felt pain, so she couldn't have been a Savant.

Spook had to flare tin non-stop for the entire time between WoA and HoA to Savant.