The Men of Gold and Red are from Lumar?

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

Alright, so with the Sorceress's/Riina's island, we see guys made out of gold who've probably been awakened. I don't know much 'bout that whole thing, so I'll stay away from talking about that. Instead, I'm gonna ask a question; how likely is it that these guys are the men of gold and red that are nearly in TLM. Could Riina be associated with Autonomy? Maybe Riina joins with Autonomy and helps Bavarian try to take over? I wonder if we'll meet Riina again in Dakhor (second Elantris) 

But back to what I was originally talking about: so there's a part where Hoid says that

Spoiler

She had to give them a measure of autonomy, lest they be incapable of doing the job for which she’d designed them.

What do y'all think?

Are they the men of gold and red or are they just an elantrian world hopper's metal lackeys?

[Proletariat]

The impression that I've gotten is that Autonomy incorporates existing systems of Investiture into her bag of tricks, like turning Patji into an avatar or investing on Scadrial to add a new element to hemalurgy. I'm guessing that her army is a bunch of awakened constructs like Riina has but made more aware.

[RedBlue]

The men of red and gold may well be constructs of some kind, but they seems much, much more advanced than what Riina is using. Riina’s metal men wouldn’t be an existential threat to Era 2 Scadrians, I don’t think.

Also, it would surprise me greatly if Riina turned out to be working for Autonomy. Riina seems to be drifting through the cosmere, not achieving much, terrorising people who can’t fight back. Not the sort of person Autonomy chooses to work with. 

[Lightspine]

I was thinking there's a potential connection here too. However, I think that at some point Shai says that the Men of Red and Gold are "hard to control" or something like that, which very much contradicts their description in this story, which made it clear that they were actually easier to direct than the Midnight monsters.

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

16 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

I was thinking there's a potential connection here too. However, I think that at some point Shai says that the Men of Red and Gold are "hard to control" or something like that, which very much contradicts their description in this story, which made it clear that they were actually easier to direct than the Midnight monsters.

That actually makes a sort of sense if Autonomy Awakened them directly. Her Intent would be all through their 'programming', making them want to act more autonomous. Whereas the burnished brass men that Riina Awakened were created with a much firmer Intent - protect her tower. 

[i’m in the details]

I’m guessing making awakened esk troupes out of gold makes them heal themselves or something. And Riina is using an inferior version, or copted some from Bavadin and can’t make them work as well

[Stonerward]

From TLM and now TotES we're starting to see quite a bit of technology coming out of Nalthis so my head cannon is starting to imagine Nalthis as a neutral planet that's trading technology and to an extent are becoming arms dealers to the cosmere.

Autonomy has gone for the full package all upgraded lifeless soldiers where as Riina has just got some bargain basement lifeless that do the job but struggle with anything else.

[TheoreticalMagic]

Well, my longstanding theory that I've mentioned in other threads after the Lost Metal came out, is that the Men of Gold and Red are Skai's parallel to Aona's silver-hued Elantrians, from before the Shattering of Dominion and Devotion. I think that the true men of gold and red were co-opted by Bavadin in the aftermath of Aona and Skai's deaths, because the magical warriors of Dominion, on par with Elantrians, are pretty much the most terrifying force I can imagine in the cosmere as of this point, and my suspicion is that the Iriali are descendants of the original Skailantrians (Skai's race of Elantrians, lol) who evaded being conscripted as part of Bavadin's army and have been worldhopping to keep out of her clutches ever since.

But if there's any basis to any of this.....the original Men of Gold and Red, a Dominion-based parallel to the Devotion-fueled Elantrians, would have likely been contemporaries of the Ire, before they left Sel. Which could very plausibly mean that before Rayse (with Bavadin's help) came to Sel and destroyed Skai and Aona.....the Men of Gold and Red and the Ire were natural rivals or enemies.

And personality-wise, Riina absolutely strikes me as someone who would make analogues of her greatest enemies/most hated foes.....getting a kick out of getting to 'ironically' exert Dominion over these lifeless equivalents or knock-off versions of the real things.

 

(Per the line someone referenced earlier in thread, what Shai said in TLM about the Men of Gold and Red being hard to control.....I could imagine that the Shard of Autonomy would actually have quite a few obstacles to overcome when enforcing her will over the chosen people of Dominion.....because the Intents at play there are all flowing in the wrong direction for Bavadin's control of the Men of Gold and Red to come at all naturally. It could be that the Men of Gold and Red, if Skai-borne parallels to Elantrians, could be paradoxically hard to control for anyone who isn't their 'true master' - Dominion himself. And thus Riina's like yeah, I'm not about to waste my time trying to corral some of the real deal here, I'll stick with cheap Xerox copies that I can personally code by hand, thanks.)

Edited January 12, 2023 by TheoreticalMagic

[Cocoa he/him]

22 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

Well, my longstanding theory that I've mentioned in other threads after the Lost Metal came out, is that the Men of Gold and Red are Skai's parallel to Aona's silver-hued Elantrians, from before the Shattering of Dominion and Devotion. I think that the true men of gold and red were co-opted by Bavadin in the aftermath of Aona and Skai's deaths, because the magical warriors of Dominion, on par with Elantrians, are pretty much the most terrifying force I can imagine in the cosmere as of this point, and my suspicion is that the Iriali are descendants of the original Skailantrians (Skai's race of Elantrians, lol) who evaded being conscripted as part of Bavadin's army and have been worldhopping to keep out of her clutches ever since.

Dunno one way or another about the MoGaR* being Selish, but on the off-chance that they are, there's an interesting potential connection that I heard someone draw right after TLM came out. Autonomy's modus operandi is seeding the Cosmere with religions that she can later step in to assume direct control over using a suitable avatar, giving her a foothold on a planet. And so this person raised the question: what if Shu-Dereth is one of those puppet religions, and Wyrn and/or Jaddeth is a nascent avatar like Telsin/Trell was?

*Huh, well that acronym rolls of the tongue surprisingly well. Mooooogaaarrr. Sounds like if you tried to name an android using the Black Speech.

[lacrossedeamon]

44 minutes ago, Cocoa said:

Dunno one way or another about the MoGaR* being Selish, but on the off-chance that they are, there's an interesting potential connection that I heard someone draw right after TLM came out. Autonomy's modus operandi is seeding the Cosmere with religions that she can later step in to assume direct control over using a suitable avatar, giving her a foothold on a planet. And so this person raised the question: what if Shu-Dereth is one of those puppet religions, and Wyrn and/or Jaddeth is a nascent avatar like Telsin/Trell was?

*Huh, well that acronym rolls of the tongue surprisingly well. Mooooogaaarrr. Sounds like if you tried to name an android using the Black Speech.

I don't think Shu-Dereth is directly seeded by Autonomy. It juxtaposes Shu-Korath in a way that lines up too well with Dominion and Devotion. Jaddeth was originally a separate deity (probably the thing seeded by Autonomy) and his cult has since coopted the Derethi religion. Elantris even talks about the religious revisionism that goes on in Fjordell.

I wonder if the rumors of the "bone spore" were also seeded by Autonomy (most likely via a Sandmaster) because a 13th spore type would most likely also result in its own religion which could give Autonomy a foothold on Lumar.

[Cocoa he/him]

6 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I don't think Shu-Dereth is directly seeded by Autonomy. It juxtaposes Shu-Korath in a way that lines up too well with Dominion and Devotion. Jaddeth was originally a separate deity (probably the thing seeded by Autonomy) and his cult has since coopted the Derethi religion. Elantris even talks about the religious revisionism that goes on in Fjordell.

Different process, same result. I think the key idea being put forth was that somewhere along the line, Shu-Dereth did become an Autonomy plant, whether she was the originator or just co-opted it somewhere down the line. And if either of those was the case, then it might provide an origin for the MoGaR, assuming they're Selish.

Codenames Are Stupid is Kaise from Elantris, so enough time has passed between that boot and TLM for her to grow up and integrate into not just the Ghostbloods, but Kell's personal cell. If Theoretical up there is right about the MoGaR being knockoff Elantrians, then maybe their creation is what the Elantris sequel will be building up to.

[TheoreticalMagic]

1 hour ago, Cocoa said:

Different process, same result. I think the key idea being put forth was that somewhere along the line, Shu-Dereth did become an Autonomy plant, whether she was the originator or just co-opted it somewhere down the line. And if either of those was the case, then it might provide an origin for the MoGaR, assuming they're Selish.

Codenames Are Stupid is Kaise from Elantris, so enough time has passed between that boot and TLM for her to grow up and integrate into not just the Ghostbloods, but Kell's personal cell. If Theoretical up there is right about the MoGaR being knockoff Elantrians, then maybe their creation is what the Elantris sequel will be building up to.

To be clear, this is all theoretical (hence my name haha) but my gut says that if the MoGaR are from Sel originally, Autonomy co-opted them looooong before Elantris and its sequels. The Ire - and thus Elantris - seem to predate the deaths of Aona and Skai, and thus the crux of my theory is that Aona created the Elantrians - and though her death and the creation of the Dor affected Elantris and its magic in a number of ways, it didn't destroy any of that. And similarly, Skai created the MoGaR, with them possibly being gold-glowing mirrors of the Elantrians, fashioned in his own color (gold) the way Elantrians are silver-hued.

The Red part would have been added when Autonomy - likely in the wake of Skai's death - coopted his people, the Dominion version or parallel of Devotion's Elantrians. Likely whatever the precise nature of their magic, being of Dominion, its probably even more suited to combat than Elantrians' Devotion-derived magic innately is.....and we've seen how regardless of the nature of Aons, they're still plenty potent in combat.

Essentially I think that as much as Hrathen and his monks were a force to be reckoned with in the time of Elantris the novel.....they were really only a threat so long as the modern day Elantrians were hindered by the disruption of their power/Aons and their own lack of awareness/knowledge of the full potency of the magic at their disposal. Once Raoden and his fellow Elantrians fixed the Aons and got a better handle on their magic, the monks were much more easily fought.

And that's because I think that even as powerful as the monks are....they were never created or empowered by Skai to be TRUE rivals to Elantrians. I can't help but think that the Shard of Dominion could put forth a lot more suitable rivals to the power possessed by Aona's empowered people, the Elantrians.....and that's what I think the Men of Gold and Red once were. The true rivals to the Elantrians, Skai's ACTUAL intended 'chosen people' - with the monks and their magic simply being the next most powerful force on Sel, and thus what stepped in to fill the power vacuum once Skai and Aona were dead and the Men of Gold and Red (and the Ire) were gone from their world.

But that just means even with all of their power....the monks likely PALE in comparison to the Ire's original enemies, the monks' predecessors in terms of the mightiest Skai-derived magic users on Sel before them....the original Men of Gold.

And after all, Red is the color of corrupted investiture, which seems an inevitable result of Autonomy hijacking the people and magic system of another Shard like Dominion's. So my thought is the Men of Gold and Red ORIGINALLY were just the Men of Gold, much like Elantrians could be described as being of Silver, based on appearances. But all of this likely happened long before the events of Elantris.

(And then per Tress and the Emerald Sea, Riina just fashioned her own knock-offs of the Men of Gold that she remembers from her younger days on Sel, because they in her mind - and experience - likely represent the most fearsome warriors/force she can think of. And her brass facsimiles of these are of course just brass, no red, not just because there's no corrupted investiture involved in their making, but because Riina isn't basing her constructs on the Men of Gold and Red that modern worldhoppers fear so much. She based them on the original Men of Gold, her own contemporaries from before Bavadin coopted them - as they were likely already plenty fearsome even without the corruption of Investiture that turned them into the Men of Gold AND Red.....hence why Bavadin went to the trouble of making them her personal army in the first place).

Edited January 13, 2023 by TheoreticalMagic

[lacrossedeamon]

1 hour ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

To be clear, this is all theoretical (hence my name haha) but my gut says that if the MoGaR are from Sel originally, Autonomy co-opted them looooong before Elantris and its sequels. The Ire - and thus Elantris - seem to predate the deaths of Aona and Skai, and thus the crux of my theory is that Aona created the Elantrians - and though her death and the creation of the Dor affected Elantris and its magic in a number of ways, it didn't destroy any of that. And similarly, Skai created the MoGaR, with them possibly being gold-glowing mirrors of the Elantrians, fashioned in his own color (gold) the way Elantrians are silver-hued.

The Red part would have been added when Autonomy - likely in the wake of Skai's death - coopted his people, the Dominion version or parallel of Devotion's Elantrians. Likely whatever the precise nature of their magic, being of Dominion, its probably even more suited to combat than Elantrians' Devotion-derived magic innately is.....and we've seen how regardless of the nature of Aons, they're still plenty potent in combat.

Essentially I think that as much as Hrathen and his monks were a force to be reckoned with in the time of Elantris the novel.....they were really only a threat so long as the modern day Elantrians were hindered by the disruption of their power/Aons and their own lack of awareness/knowledge of the full potency of the magic at their disposal. Once Raoden and his fellow Elantrians fixed the Aons and got a better handle on their magic, the monks were much more easily fought.

And that's because I think that even as powerful as the monks are....they were never created or empowered by Skai to be TRUE rivals to Elantrians. I can't help but think that the Shard of Dominion could put forth a lot more suitable rivals to the power possessed by Aona's empowered people, the Elantrians.....and that's what I think the Men of Gold and Red once were. The true rivals to the Elantrians, Skai's ACTUAL intended 'chosen people' - with the monks and their magic simply being the next most powerful force on Sel, and thus what stepped in to fill the power vacuum once Skai and Aona were dead and the Men of Gold and Red (and the Ire) were gone from their world.

But that just means even with all of their power....the monks likely PALE in comparison to the Ire's original enemies, the monks' predecessors in terms of the mightiest Skai-derived magic users on Sel before them....the original Men of Gold.

And after all, Red is the color of corrupted investiture, which seems an inevitable result of Autonomy hijacking the people and magic system of another Shard like Dominion's. So my thought is the Men of Gold and Red ORIGINALLY were just the Men of Gold, much like Elantrians could be described as being of Silver, based on appearances. But all of this likely happened long before the events of Elantris.

(And then per Tress and the Emerald Sea, Riina just fashioned her own knock-offs of the Men of Gold that she remembers from her younger days on Sel, because they in her mind - and experience - likely represent the most fearsome warriors/force she can think of. And her brass facsimiles of these are of course just brass, no red, not just because there's no corrupted investiture involved in their making, but because Riina isn't basing her constructs on the Men of Gold and Red that modern worldhoppers fear so much. She based them on the original Men of Gold, her own contemporaries from before Bavadin coopted them - as they were likely already plenty fearsome even without the corruption of Investiture that turned them into the Men of Gold AND Red.....hence why Bavadin went to the trouble of making them her personal army in the first place).

So you think that Riina's automatons (no wonder Autonomy likes them) are just Awakened Lifeless a la Kalad's Phantoms but instead of stone are golden in reference to the anti-Lantrians (your term works too)? I also do think the Iriali are originally from Sel as well.

[TheoreticalMagic]

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

So you think that Riina's automatons (no wonder Autonomy likes them) are just Awakened Lifeless a la Kalad's Phantoms but instead of stone are golden in reference to the anti-Lantrians (your term works too)? I also do think the Iriali are originally from Sel as well.

Yeah exactly. They might not be exactly the same as Nalthian Lifeless or even powered by traditional Nalthian Awakening - since we do know that many magic systems can be hacked by users of other magic systems, given sufficient knowledge and Investiture, and I imagine Riina has more than enough of both to hack and thus mimic Awakening in her own way. But functionally speaking, I think they're rough equivalents of Lifeless, just made in a way and likeness that means more to Riina than just bringing in a bunch of Lifeless from Nalthis to use as bodyguards would.

And yeah, we know the Iriali have lived on at least three different worlds before Roshar, one of them being this one, and so I think they're from Sel originally. They're the descendants of the anti-Lantrians who escaped Bavadin's clutches, and they've either forgotten their origins and true magic, or perhaps their magic was similarly affected in the way the Elantrians' was by the deaths of Aona and Skai, and the creation of the Dor and other factors like the region-shattering earthquake. Only the Iriali descended from the original Men of Gold haven't figured out how to 'fix' the damage done to their magic system or compensate for the changes that have happened to it, or maybe they just don't know how to access it on other worlds (since the anti-Lantrians' magic system would still be region-based like all Sel magics).

It could be that the Iriali's frequent worldhopping, and the large scale disruption to their Connection to their original home and history, the way their long exile has impacted their sense of cultural identity....has basically rendered them unable to access their original magic, at least until they regain some sense of self and home and figure out a workaround in the same vein as the Ire figured out for making Aons work offworld.

Meanwhile, the Men of Gold and Red wouldn't be similarly hindered in using the original anti-Lantrian magic, because the Red corrupted Investiture is likely linked to Autonomy hacking their magic system and providing them with other means of accessing it, or even fueling it directly herself.

Edited January 13, 2023 by TheoreticalMagic

[lacrossedeamon]

2 minutes ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

And yeah, we know the Iriali have lived on at least three different worlds before Roshar, one of them being this one, and so I think they're from Sel originally.

Are you thinking that the Iriali were on Lumar before Roshar? We know the Tress story is taking place 300 years after the Iriali left and seemingly some undefined time after MB era 2 and I think the Iriali are long enough established on Roshar to be implausible for the Iriali to have been to Lumar first. Of course this assumes there is only one Iriali population. If Xisis and Foil are the same person and Khriss only learns his location after it becomes common knowledge then it makes sense that they are actually two different Iriali groups.

[TheoreticalMagic]

Sorry to double post, but I didn't want to just edit this into the last post in case anyone already read it.....

But it just occurred to me that maybe the changes to anti-Lantrian and Elantrian magic after Aona and Skai's deaths - that could have been Autonomy's in, how she gained control over the Men of Gold in the first place. For that matter, we know from a Word of Brandon that the earthquake that originally shattered the main Elantrian Aon wasn't a DIRECT result of Rayse killing Aona and Skai, though it was somewhat related or stemming from that - just as we know that Bavadin did in some way conspire with Rayse or provide aid in his killing of Aona and Skai and shattering their Shards.

So what if Autonomy caused the earthquake, or even just took advantage of it.....but all that was never even aimed AT the Elantrians....they just got caught in the crossfire? If there was another city like Elantris, a golden city of the anti-Lantrians....depending on where it was and how it and the anti-Lantrian magic was powered, the earthquake could have been aimed at disrupting THAT region's magic (or even just a ripple effect symptom of an attack on the anti-Lantrian city and its magic system).

Because see.....if there was an anti-Lantrian city populated by Skai's version of the Elantrians....and sometime after the death of their god/Shard Dominion...their powerful magic, the thing that made them feared above all others, just.....inexplicably stopped working.....how willing might these anti-Lantrians have been to accept the help of another Shard or entity that swooped in and offered a solution, a way to get their magic working again?

What if the two most powerful magic systems on Sel - the Elantrians' magic and the magic of their opposite peers, the anti-Lantrians - what if it 'broke' in the first place because Autonomy broke it deliberately.....just so she could offer a 'fix' to the powerful magical warriors she wanted working for her?

And that could be how the Men of Gold became the Men of Gold and Red in the first place.....desperate to regain their power, the Men of Gold took Autonomy's deal and agreed to be her army, fight for her, if she could find a way to give them back their magic. Which of course she could....just by using her own power to patch whatever she'd done to break it in the first place.

Thus ironically the Iriali are the descendants of those who refused to take Bavadin's deal and sacrifice their autonomy....even to get their powerful magic back.

That could set up a fascinating potential conflict down the line, where the key to breaking Autonomy's power and wresting away control of her most powerful army of warriors....lies in the Iriali trying to 'save' their corrupted ancestors or cousins from Bavadin's influence. 

[TheoreticalMagic]

7 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Are you thinking that the Iriali were on Lumar before Roshar? We know the Tress story is taking place 300 years after the Iriali left and seemingly some undefined time after MB era 2 and I think the Iriali are long enough established on Roshar to be implausible for the Iriali to have been to Lumar first. Of course this assumes there is only one Iriali population. If Xisis and Foil are the same person and Khriss only learns his location after it becomes common knowledge then it makes sense that they are actually two different Iriali groups.

I'm actually not sure about the timeline here, but truthfully I don't think it matters whether Lumar was one of the worlds the Iriali came to BEFORE Roshar or whether its one they went to AFTER Roshar. I think the more important part is just that the Iriali Long Trail had them living on at least three worlds before Roshar, and their legends say they'll likely be on several more worlds before they reach the Long Trail's end.

But yeah, depending on the timeline I think it could also be that they leave Roshar in the aftermath of Stormlight Archive #5 and then end up on Lumar.....and then have already moved on as of 300 years prior to this particular book.

And like you said, there's also the possibility that there are multiple Iriali populations and they scattered in different directions after they left Sel.

Edited January 13, 2023 by TheoreticalMagic

[Amethorean]

I was thinking the same thing hearing about the metal guardians. When the process of the spores being delivered to Lumar from the moons was described, I remember thinking it seemed manufactured. Could Lumar be serving as a storage facility for the spores? Autonomy definitely seems to like cultivating multiple forms of magic, I don't think it would be a stretch to think she's had some influence here.

[Starganderfish]

Well Riina’s gold/brass guardians are almost certainly Awakened Lifeless, just presumably metal rather than stone:

Quote

“On the shore, the metal men marched in ranks, responding immediately to the Sorceress’s orders. The color of burnished brass, each one seven feet tall and carrying a spear with a glistening tip, they were an intimidating sight. Their instructions (carefully conveyed by the Sorceress when Breathing life into them) were complex, careful, and meticulous.”

Complex meticulous instructions, Breathing life (with a capital “B”)

Thats not Elantrian magic, that’s Awakening. She’s familiar enough with Nalthian tech to hack Fort’s Speak and Spell, so acquiring Lifeless tech seems plausible. 
 

Given Brandon’s tendency to drop subtle clues and tie things together, makes me feel like Trell’s “Men of Gold and Red” are probably also Awakened Nalthian constructs, maybe enhanced with Taldain tech (didn’t WOB state that up until Automomy closed the system off, Taldain was one of if not the most advanced society in the Cosmere?) I can see technological cyborg/androids combined with Lifeless Awakening to make some pretty impressive “robots”, ones that aren’t hampered by that pesky independence or sentience of real people. Autonomous, but still controllable.