Quick Fix 64: Spies in Starsight

[Mat he/him]

Just now, Kasimir said:

K gonna sleep and on mobile so I'll engage with the rest later but no. As I said, the fact you considered a fakeclaim Jedi gambit to draw out the hidden Village faction and got beaten to the punch is stronger on my mind. I agree with Stick the correct read is NAI but I've been shamelessly using you as bait to solicit thoughts and try to get a sense for how people are thinking. 

Which is fine, yeah. It should be NAI anyway and I don't mind it being bait for discussion  I thought of a few reasons e!me would have done that and why it can be an elim sided gambit but I thought of those things after tired!me posted it and walked away, so they'll just get to sit in my back pocket. No use giving the elims something to look for >>

[Amanuensis he/him]

16 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Why not? In a V!Danex world which I'm still entertaining, Fifth gets free Village points from pushing Mat and not continuing to allow people to dig deeper into the Danex hole. At the point of hos vote, Danex must have been four or five votes deep. I think that's the classic stage an Elim who is as noisy as Fifth would seek an alternate sidetrain rather than by alarming everyone else by stacking further. 

I think the blunt CBA could be a good look for Fifth and maybe I'm a bit more thrown than I should be by the paranoia, but his reads and approach are ods to me. I say all this just to acknowledge I think such a move is necessary coming from a good Villager. Day discussion mustn't narrow. He avoided that. Good. But that it's an exceptionally low cost place to insert yourself as an Elim if the Village is about to screw itself over. Curious why you don't seem to think that's a viable route. 

Edited to add: Confused by the shift from Wiz back to Fifth/Danex. 

Fair. I also have been considering a V!Danex world.

The Wizard discussion mostly hinges on how they respond IMO, so figured I can feel you out here too.

ED1T:

14 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Aman's voting has been truly bad. Nearly voting him just on that but tbh I should look more into the other parts of his posts. His Wiz one can be fine, I guess. But voting Dannex and me just feels incredibly lazy.

TBF I did say in my first post I feel like being lazy this game

Edited December 18, 2022 by Amanuensis

[The Wandering Wizard he/him]

34 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Wizard. Why is this your only post today? I've seen you reading.

I've been in church and I just got out. I won't be on much later since it is Sunday and I'm just exhausted. 

[Amanuensis he/him]

Just now, Ookla the Myopic said:

I've been in church and I just got out. I won't be on much later since it is Sunday and I'm just exhausted. 

Okie. Get some rest! When you get back, I want to know why the first and only thing you commented on was Villager FUD.

[The Wandering Wizard he/him]

6 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Okie. Get some rest! When you get back, I want to know why the first and only thing you commented on was Villager FUD.

Honestly I don't quite remember. I think it was reading about the A:tr conversation and the claims of Winzik and I was confused. So I commented on the FUD going around mostly the confusion part of it. I think that was why.

[Fifth Scholar he/him]

36 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Actually, is there any incentive to talk at all? Like any incentive :P. Just a thought. I hate short docs as much as the next guy but in this case less talking -> less possibilities for the elims to narrow someone down based on speaking patterns -> more random guessing. And random guessing on their part is typically good for us.

Yes. At the very least, the IC is still a confirmed village group. If they ever outnumber the rest of the game, they can just claim to each other and win. The Elims can’t kill them quickly enough before they have shrekked all the people who aren’t them.  Obviously, talking too much can be a problem—unless you are good at masking your speech patterns and time zone, you can still get caught out by linguistic analysis—but at the very least they should all check in every cycle to confirm numbers, and, if they ever outnumber everyone else, be prepared to mass-claim and sweep. Also, this is a confirmed village group, so analysis can be done within it relatively freely/untaintedly, which is another boon. It’s not completely open season like, say, the Jedi doc, but aside from a few misdirections to preserve identity security and such, you could have good serious conversations in there which don’t have elim analysis seeping in. That said, again, be cautious, and refer back to my earlier point about people getting caught out with linguistic analysis. 

[Haelbarde he/him]

15 hours ago, Kasimir said:

I'm not down for lynching Aman or Fifth today.

I'm hurt

9 hours ago, Kasimir said:

He has eight Elim games. This is a fairly narrow query. I could do this without wanting to commit seppuku.........

Yeah okay lesgo I guess.

Honestly I am still more sus of Danex than TUN at this point, and I bring the TUN point up despite having him as a null, but if I can I actually also want to run a Danex study - I don't have a strong memory of how E!Danex responds to pressure and while the overreaction is notable, I want to see Danex parameters too. How many E games does he have?

Four?

HAHAHAHAHAHA LESGO I GUESS

Had been going to weigh in and say if TUN was a newish player I'd be tending to view them village, but sounds like they're not then. I'll try review their past games and reevaluate once I'm at a PC.

6 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

(Noting the noticing of Devo answering for Hael on the hedging thing.)

(Noting Hael's last post ending with a "I'ma be back" accountability thing which I see myself do a lot more when evil + Stick's gut not loving the post either)

I don't think you were intending to refer to me here - think it was Devo responding to Stick?

I was going to say "look at my recent games, this is my new normal", but I think I only did so last game, and I was evil... >> I swear I'm not though.

More seriously, I've been finding myself lacking motivation to actually keep up with SE games, and regardless of alignment struggling to make more than a couple short posts, particularly if no one's asking me any questions. The time accountability is/was an attempt to try and ensure I post a bit more.

---

I'll unpoke Aman for the moment.

Not sure how I feel about the amount of discussion of Merlin's when I don't really feel it's all that relevant to the discussion. At least to me, the standout issue with Merlin is their susceptibility to analysis based on their curse of knowledge. The Winzik doesn't have that curse of knowledge. The issue they have is a hole in their security, where they, and all the other members of the inner circle have to be careful to not be ID'd by their use of the doc.

About the extent of the value of the discussion to me is that using it talking about Martin's claim based on past examples of Merlin game is a useful connection to read NAI on Mat's claim.

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

4 minutes ago, Haelbarde said:

Had been going to weigh in and say if TUN was a newish player I'd be tending to view them village, but sounds like they're not then. I'll try review their past games and reevaluate once I'm at a PC.

My first game was fourteen QFs ago, so new according to your ancient origins.

[Stick. she/her]

7 hours ago, Kasimir said:

@_Stick_ - I've also found one E!TUN game with mech analysis, happy to see if you disagree with the flow

Oh cool what game was this? I shall check it out too.

7 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

She's doing the thing I would do as Village

Oh no...the last time you said this you were elim xD I'm scared now.

4 hours ago, Ookla the Omniscient said:

Rollovet!

2 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Either way I'm not keen on a second game player on a D1. 

This is not Wiz's second game?

2 hours ago, Ookla the Tall said:

If I'd had to have guessed before reading this post, I would have been wrong on both.

Never let 'em know your next move 

This post of yours very big and nice but where are you planning to vote? To summarise, you have a positive read on Dannex, negative (but notably non-committal) read on TUN, positive read on Kas, negative read on Aman and neutral on Wiz. So will you be voting TUN/Aman today?

1 hour ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Yes. At the very least, the IC is still a confirmed village group. If they ever outnumber the rest of the game, they can just claim to each other and win. The Elims can’t kill them quickly enough before they have shrekked all the people who aren’t them.  Obviously, talking too much can be a problem—unless you are good at masking your speech patterns and time zone, you can still get caught out by linguistic analysis—but at the very least they should all check in every cycle to confirm numbers, and, if they ever outnumber everyone else, be prepared to mass-claim and sweep. Also, this is a confirmed village group, so analysis can be done within it relatively freely/untaintedly, which is another boon. It’s not completely open season like, say, the Jedi doc, but aside from a few misdirections to preserve identity security and such, you could have good serious conversations in there which don’t have elim analysis seeping in. That said, again, be cautious, and refer back to my earlier point about people getting caught out with linguistic analysis. 

I think that this paragraph is very much stating the obvious and is an attempt to appear helpful  But re: bolded part, I would argue that analysis in-thread is more useful than in that document because with everyone chiming in, the village has more information to analyse upon flips. Plus since elims can see the discussions in the IC doc they will more easily be able to form a defence for themselves early on, not to mention it'll be glaringly obvious when people bring up the same analysis in-thread (to justify their votes/persuade others to vote alongside them) that the elims have seen in the IC doc.

Edit:

59 minutes ago, Haelbarde said:

I don't think you were intending to refer to me here - think it was Devo responding to Stick?

I'm pretty sure he meant to write Fifth there - Devo had responded to Kas for Fifth when Kas asked Fifth for elaboration regarding his stance on me

Edited December 18, 2022 by _Stick_
grammar

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 minutes ago, _Stick_ said:

Oh no...the last time you said this you were elim xD I'm scared now.

[Mat he/him]

21 minutes ago, _Stick_ said:

This post of yours very big and nice but where are you planning to vote? To summarise, you have a positive read on Dannex, negative (but notably non-committal) read on TUN, positive read on Kas, negative read on Aman and neutral on Wiz. So will you be voting TUN/Aman today?

Hmm. Good question. As for Aman/TUN, more likely the latter, but I’d also be willing to throw you into the mix because vibes. Dunno what the VC is but whoever the Dannex countertrain is also is an option for me.

[Stick. she/her]

Vote Count:
Kas (2): Dannnnnex, Kas
Dannnnnex (3): Stick, JNV, Bookwyrm
Mat(1): Fifth
Wiz(1): Aman

I think I feel OK but that the state of the votes.

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Hmm. Good question. As for Aman/TUN, more likely the latter, but I’d also be willing to throw you into the mix because vibes. Dunno what the VC is but whoever the Dannex countertrain is also is an option for me.

Thoughts on Fifth? Does Hael stand out to you either way? The Dannex counter wagon is technically Kas, who you have a positive read on. Wiz has a vote. I'm not too opposed to a Wiz exe. I know you said you don't have a read on Wiz but would you hate to exe them today?

[Throw TheLiving Silverware he/him/il/lui]

Hello, I'm finally here! 

Just a few thoughts after reading the thread too much times:

-dannnnex is... I have no idea, but being most concerned with the size of the IC is kind of a red flag for me. Well, an orange flag at least. But then there's the meta argument, which is not my favourite kind of argument as players can change their playstyles, but here it doesn't really fits with what we had of him so far, so... null for now but if I completely disregard Kas' analysis he's an elim lean for me

-Stick's defense of dannnnex is rather blunt, really strong for an early C1. But it could be genuine as well, I don’t know. In fact it almost seems to strong for an e/e interaction. So slight elim lean there but like really slight

- The Winzik claims... did anyone take that seriously ? For me they’re clearly NAI jokes (or maybe attempts at making noise and confuse the elims, as Kas said). Which is not that good looking for Aman and TUN

 

15 hours ago, Kasimir said:

p1 C1:

Bad: [Danex]

IDK/DGAF: [Stick, Hael, TUN]

No: [Aman, Fifth, Almond]

Edited to add: TUN should really be italicised.

Just to be sure: am I completely misunderstanding this post, or is Kas clearing people (Aman Fifth Almond) who hadn't posted yet? 

 

That's all for now and will likely be all for today. I'd have liked to wait even a bit more a bit to fully make up my mind on people I mentioned above, but since it's midnight for me I'm signing off now and I'll leave an hesitant vote on dannnex because I think as far as I can trust a D1 read (ie not much) he's still the most suspicious of the ones here

Btw thanks JNV for the quokkas 

[Mat he/him]

11 minutes ago, _Stick_ said:

Thoughts on Fifth? Does Hael stand out to you either way? The Dannex counter wagon is technically Kas, who you have a positive read on. Wiz has a vote. I'm not too opposed to a Wiz exe. I know you said you don't have a read on Wiz but would you hate to exe them today?

I already mentioned I thought it was odd he and Aman were content to vote me (he can say what he wants but he’s of another generation ) but otherwise nothing stands especially out. I can understand him saying there’s not much he wants to comment on though. Hael is null to me but I haven’t looked close as his posts or anything.

I’m pretending the Kas train doesn’t exist because it’s a self vote and I just don’t want to talk about it >>

I’m only opposed to the Wiz vote because he hasn’t really done anything. Like, no reason to v read him but no reason to e read him either. 

[Stick. she/her]

Dannex 

help :0

@Ookla Carried by the Wind Kas meant that he didn’t want to vote for those guys because they are either returning or new players 

Edit:

@Ookla the Omniscient how are ties dealt with?

Edited December 18, 2022 by _Stick_

[Amanuensis he/him]

1 hour ago, Haelbarde said:

I'm hurt

Had been going to weigh in and say if TUN was a newish player I'd be tending to view them village, but sounds like they're not then. I'll try review their past games and reevaluate once I'm at a PC.

I don't think you were intending to refer to me here - think it was Devo responding to Stick?

I was going to say "look at my recent games, this is my new normal", but I think I only did so last game, and I was evil... >> I swear I'm not though.

More seriously, I've been finding myself lacking motivation to actually keep up with SE games, and regardless of alignment struggling to make more than a couple short posts, particularly if no one's asking me any questions. The time accountability is/was an attempt to try and ensure I post a bit more.

 

---

I'll unpoke Aman for the moment.

Not sure how I feel about the amount of discussion of Merlin's when I don't really feel it's all that relevant to the discussion. At least to me, the standout issue with Merlin is their susceptibility to analysis based on their curse of knowledge. The Winzik doesn't have that curse of knowledge. The issue they have is a hole in their security, where they, and all the other members of the inner circle have to be careful to not be ID'd by their use of the doc.

About the extent of the value of the discussion to me is that using it talking about Martin's claim based on past examples of Merlin game is a useful connection to read NAI on Mat's claim.

Before I forget again, I realized shortly after that post that you were being openly accountable with your hours before the game officially started, so I’m not as wary.

1 hour ago, Ookla Carried by the Wind said:

Hello, I'm finally here! 

Just a few thoughts after reading the thread too much times:

-dannnnex is... I have no idea, but being most concerned with the size of the IC is kind of a red flag for me. Well, an orange flag at least. But then there's the meta argument, which is not my favourite kind of argument as players can change their playstyles, but here it doesn't really fits with what we had of him so far, so... null for now but if I completely disregard Kas' analysis he's an elim lean for me

-Stick's defense of dannnnex is rather blunt, really strong for an early C1. But it could be genuine as well, I don’t know. In fact it almost seems to strong for an e/e interaction. So slight elim lean there but like really slight

- The Winzik claims... did anyone take that seriously ? For me they’re clearly NAI jokes (or maybe attempts at making noise and confuse the elims, as Kas said). Which is not that good looking for Aman and TUN

 

Just to be sure: am I completely misunderstanding this post, or is Kas clearing people (Aman Fifth Almond) who hadn't posted yet? 

 

That's all for now and will likely be all for today. I'd have liked to wait even a bit more a bit to fully make up my mind on people I mentioned above, but since it's midnight for me I'm signing off now and I'll leave an hesitant vote on dannnex because I think as far as I can trust a D1 read (ie not much) he's still the most suspicious of the ones here

Btw thanks JNV for the quokkas 

We hadn’t posted at the time. Btw I’m curious how TUN and I look bad for the Wiznik claims.

To explain my votes a little bit, I supported the Danex train because I felt both Kas and Stick’s votes were pure. I then joined the Mat train to see if any Danex teammates would attempt to join. Then Mat posted something I liked and I decided to look for anyone not being discussed or participating, in case we’re looking at a V!Danex and V!Mat world. Hence Wizard.

ED1T:

@Kasimir Is FUD a common term these days? I only learned it from Wizard’s post and saw you use it later too 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

4 hours ago, Kasimir said:

I'm not sure what you think is hedgy about that again. Once again, you are defending a literal definition of hedginess. Well, is it literally hedgy if she refused to assign him a read on that basis?

Not saying anything abut Stick, since not assigning a firm read on someone is reasonable at this stage of the game, more that it was an odd statement for you to make. Don't need to get bogged down by this or by the definition of opportunistic as the first vote.

2 hours ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Aman's voting has been truly bad. Nearly voting him just on that but tbh I should look more into the other parts of his posts. His Wiz one can be fine, I guess. But voting Dannex and me just feels incredibly lazy.

Votes for you and Danex do at least see how committed people are to exing Danex. That's still the primary train even though there has been resistance to it because of how quickly it started.

Potentially willing to vote for Fifth even though last time he was a Jedi.

         : Why can't we argue over definitions with that human? To see whether humans should be integrated into the Superiority, we need to learn how they think.

             : :water droplet:

Kalli: Correct, that human is far from representative of his species. One opinion won't provide a picture of them any more than we are representative of diones. Species integration requires observing how prospective members behave collectively. Besides, we have to focus on Terlken's death. We can't allow the DPS to gain any more power.

What if the rumors of human infiltration are true? They could be worse than the DPS.

:scale:

If the rumors are true, I won't let humans gain that power for themselves either.

 

[Mat he/him]

Will vote Stick to appease my gut 

1 hour ago, _Stick_ said:

Kas meant that he didn’t want to vote for those guys because they are either returning or new players

Neither Fifth nor Aman are returning though, both have played in one of the last two games. I read that as bro privileges which isn’t fair but also is NAI for Kas  

[Fifth Scholar he/him]

2 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

I think that this paragraph is very much stating the obvious and is an attempt to appear helpful  But re: bolded part, I would argue that analysis in-thread is more useful than in that document because with everyone chiming in, the village has more information to analyse upon flips. Plus since elims can see the discussions in the IC doc they will be more easily be able to form a defense for themselves early on, not to mention it'll be glaringly obvious when people bring up the same analysis in-thread (to justify their votes/persuade others to vote alongside them) that the elims have seen in the IC doc.

I seek to both appear and be helpful  

More seriously, you raise a good point I hadn’t considered with this—namely, the difficulty of exporting the analysis casually into the thread. It’s possible if an IC member wants to do so before falling to the Exe, but otherwise it’d be tough. Likely not as good as I’d hoped, then, even though you could still try.

More random thoughts: Aman feels like v!Aman. Still OK with my Mat vote, though his explanation is noted. If Hael stays null for people, we should probably start looking into him (cf. the recent MR). If Kas is village and we’re getting sidetracked on each other, I am going to be annoyed. Dannex’s wagon doesn’t have a ton of traction, but it’s interesting that none of the counterwagons have any traction at all.

[Mat he/him]

11 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

but it’s interesting that none of the counterwagons have any traction at all.

Welcome to QF D1?  

[Kasimir he/him]

4 hours ago, Ookla the Tall said:

I kind of have trouble thinking of hidden information that wouldn't help the elim team in some way, tbh. Like unless an IC member openly claims in the doc and verifies it in thread I think there'd be enough uncertainty to not claim at all. I'd advise all IC members to just not talk about identity.

This is sort of my take, in that I don't like giving the Elims anything to work off at all. I would quite honestly say that was just what motivated my initial Danex vote: I just did not like the focus on lylo (why do you care about lylo when odds are we just won't know when the last IC member is under threat? Is there some reason you want to wait until lylo to play hard?) and the information take seemed off enough (along with the pre-explained "I always do this") that I felt it was worth pressure.

5 hours ago, Ookla the Tall said:

You yourself pointed out that asking whether or not to theorize on IC size is just asking what people think the IC size is.

This is a fair point.

5 hours ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Here's the thing though-- in my experience, v!TUN acts closely to e!TUN. The kinds of comments he gives aren't that easy of a tell, they just aren't. 

I feel we've caught E!TUN over behaviour more than we have comments, e.g. the map thing.

5 hours ago, Ookla the Tall said:

• Stick/TUN e/e is far too obvious to be true, right? xD

I am not sure I want to theorise E/E on D1. It's probably a me thing rather than a you thing, but it just has to do with the sheer number of possibilities on D1, so I prefer to look directly at candidates. Also I genuinely am content for the moment with believing that Stick is expressing quite a different attitude from her LG91 opener. I am comfortable with a V read of her for the moment.

5 hours ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Not much to have thoughts on. He's also probably occupied elsewhere today but nothing in that post makes me want to lean either way, really. There might be something to be said if there's a clear activity difference between v and e Wiz but idk if there is and I kind of doubt it'd be that obvious of a catch.

This is my worry.

4 hours ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Yes. At the very least, the IC is still a confirmed village group. If they ever outnumber the rest of the game, they can just claim to each other and win. The Elims can’t kill them quickly enough before they have shrekked all the people who aren’t them.  Obviously, talking too much can be a problem—unless you are good at masking your speech patterns and time zone, you can still get caught out by linguistic analysis—but at the very least they should all check in every cycle to confirm numbers, and, if they ever outnumber everyone else, be prepared to mass-claim and sweep. Also, this is a confirmed village group, so analysis can be done within it relatively freely/untaintedly, which is another boon. It’s not completely open season like, say, the Jedi doc, but aside from a few misdirections to preserve identity security and such, you could have good serious conversations in there which don’t have elim analysis seeping in. That said, again, be cautious, and refer back to my earlier point about people getting caught out with linguistic analysis. 

3 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

I think that this paragraph is very much stating the obvious and is an attempt to appear helpful  But re: bolded part, I would argue that analysis in-thread is more useful than in that document because with everyone chiming in, the village has more information to analyse upon flips. Plus since elims can see the discussions in the IC doc they will more easily be able to form a defence for themselves early on, not to mention it'll be glaringly obvious when people bring up the same analysis in-thread (to justify their votes/persuade others to vote alongside them) that the elims have seen in the IC doc.

I actually think you should give him a bit more credit than this. The second sentence is bloody insane, but it's a classic Fifth gambit play - just claim and kill through your suspects before the Elims do. I will say I don't expect this situation to obtain, and if it somehow does, it'll entail the game has been going fairly Village-side anyway, but that being said, yeah. It's not literally a gambit but it has a Fifth level of love of risk that really, really annoys me because I just want to play it classically.

So this is the thing. I think your point about the need to analyse in thread is also correct, and yet the Fifth thing reads to me as being on brand. He and Drake discovered the value of having a pure Village doc to discuss in in the previous MR and I could see that skewing his take, especially given his risk appetite. I am eh about the Elims forming a defence early on - they can if they want to! TMI is just as much a tell IMO, and that could put them in hot soup, which suits me just fine. I agree more about the obviousness of bringing up the same analysis - it really boils down to the need to play circumspectly, maybe sow a bit of in-doc misdirection.

Which does cut against Fifth's point but I do take it to fundamentally be a trade-off between risk and misdirection. You can gain a lot from being sincere and truthful in the doc, but you also lose because of the risk of death. And being safe decreases doc utility.

I sort of read Fifth's post as coming from V!Fifth, which rather puts me out as I had a nice suspicion of him pre-sleep but we can commit to re-reading and re-evaluating Fifth some other time I guess. 

4 hours ago, Haelbarde said:

I'm hurt

3 hours ago, Ookla Carried by the Wind said:

Just to be sure: am I completely misunderstanding this post, or is Kas clearing people (Aman Fifth Almond) who hadn't posted yet? 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Neither Fifth nor Aman are returning though, both have played in one of the last two games. I read that as bro privileges which isn’t fair but also is NAI for Kas  

3 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

Kas meant that he didn’t want to vote for those guys because they are either returning or new players 

I was being circumspect about this because I didn't want to distract people, but I'm just going to go for it as it might convince Fifth to put his money where his mouth is and vote for me, in which case we might actually get to ML me for once  I have, by this point in time, hit the view that I need to let the Village ML me maybe ten times before people learn that they're actually on unending paranoia over the last couple games. I'm happy to make it twenty or thirty if the Village is smoking RMSProp 1e-4 instead 

Long story short, it has to do with a Very Bad Situation that may have been averted by their late sign-ups, for which I'm grateful. I would extend returning player amnesty to the three of them entirely, but - sorry man it's a QF, I can't afford to do that, though I guess Hael isn't under threat anyway.

3 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

Kas (2): Dannnnnex, Kas

You missed Nerdy's vote.

3 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

This is not Wiz's second game?

I'm referring to Nerdy - specifically I believe his vote looks very opportunistic. But vote analysis has to be tempered with the fact he's a player on his second game, which means: I don't have a strong read of how thoughtful a player he is (we played in BT3) but it's D1 and I firmly believe you just bring up your suspicions and go for it because you never want to die with suspicions/thoughts unsaid even if we know the Village will ignore it.

At least in that world you did your best

Is it just me or has there been zero Xino presence this game at all?

4 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

Oh cool what game was this? I shall check it out too.

Three games I can see/think of: QF61 (most recent, though granted it's a response to Archer), LG79 (as Cream Tuatara), and LG87.

I'll give you this IMO: I looked at LG90 and LG73 as well and I'll agree his engagement this game just feels different from in those three I've identified. Enough that I'm not sure that's where I want to go. But that's an engagement v. direction point tbh.

1 hour ago, Fifth Scholar said:

I am going to be annoyed

I think the person you should be annoyed with is yourself because I am not doing any sidetracking.

3 hours ago, Ookla Carried by the Wind said:

which is not my favourite kind of argument as players can change their playstyles

I would argue players can change their playstyles but their tendencies are harder to change. I also think that meta matters whether to a fine-grained or coarse-grained degree. It's no different from taking into account a player's experience level, rather than basically the entire MR61 thread deciding it was okay to ML Bookwyrm and Silho because lol who cares about having a baseline for player behaviour?

4 hours ago, Haelbarde said:

Not sure how I feel about the amount of discussion of Merlin's when I don't really feel it's all that relevant to the discussion. At least to me, the standout issue with Merlin is their susceptibility to analysis based on their curse of knowledge. The Winzik doesn't have that curse of knowledge. The issue they have is a hole in their security, where they, and all the other members of the inner circle have to be careful to not be ID'd by their use of the doc.

 

The IC does but in a different way - the dynamic I'm interested here is more in how the uninformed majority protects an informed minority against another informed minority. In other words, I'm not looking at this from the Winzik POV. I'm looking at this from the Village POV. But I also think this is a moot point so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

2 hours ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

Potentially willing to vote for Fifth even though last time he was a Jedi.

Why?

2 hours ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

Not saying anything abut Stick, since not assigning a firm read on someone is reasonable at this stage of the game, more that it was an odd statement for you to make. Don't need to get bogged down by this or by the definition of opportunistic as the first vote.

Why is it odd? I'm interested in why Fifth thinks it's hedgy because E!Stick has been hedgy when asked early on to give a firm stance on players. It seems to me it should reflect either on Fifth's sincerity in the thread or Stick's alignment, neither of which I know, so I have reason to want this information.

2 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

@Kasimir Is FUD a common term these days? I only learned it from Wizard’s post and saw you use it later too 

I think people are using it since I used it in QF62 though the context was very specific - Dannex in that game should've been an instant softmechclear IMO. We had a pool of only three players left who could have been the converter Elim and Danex wasn't in there. But Mat kept raising increasingly insane possibilities and just generally degrading the discussion space by causing uncertainty and doubt to the point Dannex got MLed, and nearly pushed I think Devo as well, though Devo was a less obvious clear. It was a very specific but effective tactic, and I am not sure I'd use it in the Winzik context, and the fact he used it to great effect to the point of securing the Dannex ML and Archer kill is what makes me wary of players who are peddling it. Since that game, I've taken to being stronger about my thoughts/views even when I may not be as sure about them. We can call it trauma from Mat.

[Mat he/him]

12 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I feel we've caught E!TUN over behaviour more than we have comments, e.g. the map thing.

This as an example isn’t super great imo since that was what, two years ago? That being said my take wasn’t based on any real data of recent meta so it could be wrong. But the map thing was long enough ago that I wouldn’t put too much stock into it.

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

Two hours left in the cycle! Make sure to get your votes and actions in!

[Kasimir he/him]

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

This as an example isn’t super great imo since that was what, two years ago? That being said my take wasn’t based on any real data of recent meta so it could be wrong. But the map thing was long enough ago that I wouldn’t put too much stock into it.

TUN has exactly eight times in which he was Elim, so that's a sample size problem to begin with. (I say, despite having a grand total of nine times...)

• QF61 - not re-reading to satisfy my curiosity and he wasn't caught anyway
• LG87 - not caught
• MR56 - Doesn't count because was converted
• LG73 - the one in which he was caught
• LG90 - last Elim standing, so PoE
• QF58 - Archivist type Illwei CW C1
• LG79 - Claimed Elim, vote analysis
• MR52 - Sus action claim.

At least 4/8 cases IMO point to the fact you can't catch him by comments alone or post analysis but typical analysis works just fine.

Edited to add: While the dead doc had quokkagate, I certainly recall a number of dead doc comments about TUN's votes being off too.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Kasimir

[Amanuensis he/him]

28 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Is it just me or has there been zero Xino presence this game at all?