Ruminations on matter, energy, Investiture, and God Metals [Discuss]

[Szeth_Pancakes he/him]

According to VenDell, there are three things that make up the cosmere: matter, energy, and Investiture. Each of these can be transformed into one another. While seemingly obvious, this can explain a lot of the strange phenomena we've seen in the various magic systems Brandon has created. Also, it brings to light some interesting questions about how the cosmere is different from our world.

Investiture => Energy

This transformation is the easiest to piece together. It explains how a lot of the cosmere's magic works: half of the surges (Adhesion, Gravitation, Division, Abrasion, and Progression), some aspects of Allomancy, and most Aons are at least partially dictated by this rule. Perhaps in Era 4 an e=mc^2-type equation would be in use.

Energy => Investiture

This one's harder to find examples of, but Lift definitely makes use of it: some of the chemical energy from her food turns into Investiture during cellular respiration instead of kinetic and heat energy.

Investiture => Matter

According to VenDell, God Metals are an example of this. But what kind of matter are they?

This is really what I wanted to get to with this post. The evidence presented in tLM kind of contradicts itself when talking about what trellium and harmonium are. I have a few theories:

1. Harmonium is a heavy alkali metal

This is a bit of a crack theory: the only real evidence for this is that Harmonium is silvery and reacts violently with water -- the two main properties of alkali metals. Perhaps in the cosmere, atoms work slightly differently, with Investiture assisting protons and neutrons packing in a way that makes Francium or Ununennium (the undiscovered Element #119) have stable isotopes. I have no idea where lerasium, atium, or trellium fit into this, though, and it also doesn't work because of another reason: the emission spectrum.

2. Matter doesn't work the same way in the cosmere

An atom's emission spectrum is dictated by how it emits photons when its electrons change energy levels. This creates several lines, which each correspond to a certain type of electron in the atom. I think. I don't quite understand how it works. Anyway, no currently known element has a full emission spectrum like the god metals do. I propose that "axi," which are stated a few times to be the fundamental particles of the cosmere, work radically differently from the fundamental particles of our universe. This would fit with some of the strange properties we've seen ordinary Earth objects having, most notably aluminum/ralkalest/aluminium being a sort of insulator for Investiture. Since no world we've seen has gotten far enough scientifically to develop a theory of atoms and whatnot, we have no idea what the cosmere could look like on an atomic/quantum scale.

3. God Metals aren't truly matter

My favorite theory coming out of this is that God Metals work in a way similar to Stormlight, and that they're both at an in-between spot; not truly matter and not truly Investiture. When Stormlight is put through a prism, it produces results very similar to when you use a spectrograph on God Metals. Neither of these work the way that we expect matter and light to work in our universe, but they seem to have the same basic properties as those things. Plus, VenDell explicitly said that God Metals are matter. I propose that he was oversimplifying a tad, and that God Metals aren't exactly matter -- but not a form of Investiture, either.

Let me know if you have any other theories.

Matter => Investiture

Sand mastery turns water into Investiture. Allomancy turns metals into Investiture -- at least, that's what I assume, since it seems like iron filings would be a tad hard to digest.

~~~

P.S. Nerdy, most of this post was written before I started the haiku challenge, so it doesn't count. Also, it would be madness to post this whole thing in a haiku format.

[Frustration he/him]

Shardmetals are matter, but they aren't quite the same, they are regular atoms that have been so suffused with Investiture their properties have changed.

Spoiler

Viper (paraphrased)

So in cosmere, does physics work the same way in the Physical Realm as it does in our world? Specifically, particle physics; and are atoms made up of protons and neutrons and electrons, and is light photons, etc?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Viper (paraphrased)

So what's at the core of an atom of atium? Ate-teum? Also how do you pronounce it? At-teum?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. And the matter is just normal matter, but it's wrapped in the Spiritual. The Spiritual DNA [or something] is what makes it magical.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/212/#e4677

 

 

 

 

 

[AquaRegia he/him]

30 minutes ago, Ookla the Omniscient said:

Investiture => Energy

This transformation is the easiest to piece together. It explains how a lot of the cosmere's magic works: half of the surges (Adhesion, Gravitation, Division, Abrasion, and Progression), some aspects of Allomancy, and most Aons are at least partially dictated by this rule. Perhaps in Era 4 an e=mc^2-type equation would be in use.

I'd argue that ALL the surges involve Investiture turning into energy.  Also light leaking out of Invested spheres is also Investiture -> Energy.

36 minutes ago, Ookla the Omniscient said:

Investiture => Matter

Both Lift and TwinSoul can make short-lived matter which can occupy space and resist force, but evaporates away again.

40 minutes ago, Ookla the Omniscient said:

2. Matter doesn't work the same way in the cosmere

I know Brandon says otherwise, but as a chemist myself I see no way to make the observed behavior of Godmetals fit with them being made of normal atoms.  At some point, "fantasy rules" have to diverge from "real world rules".  Godmetals are "matter" in the sense that they have mass and take up space, thus they are neither energy nor Investiture, but their "magical" properties simply can't be explained nonmagically.

46 minutes ago, Ookla the Omniscient said:

Matter => Investiture

 

Sand mastery turns water into Investiture. Allomancy turns metals into Investiture -- at least, that's what I assume, since it seems like iron filings would be a tad hard to digest.

If I recall correctly, Brandon has stated that in Allomancy, the metals themselves are not turned into Investiture, but rather that the metals are a kind of "key" or "conduit" which connect the Allomancer to Preservation's power.  The fact that the metal atoms do, in fact, disappear from the stomach of the Allomancer when "burned" (or leeched) remains another fantasy magic puzzle.

It's a truly amazing thing that Brandon has invented this entire ridiculous fake universe... and dragged so many of us into it with him.

[lacrossedeamon]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Omniscient said:

Matter => Investiture

Sand mastery turns water into Investiture. Allomancy turns metals into Investiture -- at least, that's what I assume, since it seems like iron filings would be a tad hard to digest.

~~~

Additionally Sand Mastery the Investiture is coming from the sun of the Taldain system and being absorbed and metabolized by some form algae in the sand that a Sand Master can then somehow control at expense of dehydration. It seems to possibly work similar to the aetherbound.

Edited December 4, 2022 by lacrossedeamon

[Szeth_Pancakes he/him]

15 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Additionally Sand Mastery the Investiture is coming from the sun of the Taldain system and being absorbed and metabolized by some form algae in the sand that a Sand Master can then somehow control at expense of dehydration. It seems to possibly work similar to the aetherbound.

It also takes water.

and yeah yeah my theory got

frustration’d. Storm it

[Frustration he/him]

17 minutes ago, Ookla the Omniscient said:

It also takes water.

and yeah yeah my theory got

frustration’d. Storm it

I cannot tell you how happy it makes me that I'm filling the same role R'Shara did when I first joined.

[Szeth_Pancakes he/him]

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I cannot tell you how happy it makes me that I'm filling the same role R'Shara did when I first joined.

You are a verb now!

That’s a big accomplishment.

Be proud of yourself

[DiePie]

My own crackpot theory when I was reading the early chapters was that Investiture was a 5th force-carrying particle, and God-metals are just atoms that interact with those particles in a special way (with the idea that the various shards effected the world through control of those particles). But VanDell's speech about matter/energy/investiture equivalence put's that one on ice.

[RedBlue she/her]

5 hours ago, Ookla the Omniscient said:

An atom's emission spectrum is dictated by how it emits photons when its electrons change energy levels. This creates several lines, which each correspond to a certain type of electron in the atom. I think. I don't quite understand how it works. Anyway, no currently known element has a full emission spectrum like the god metals do.

This is correct for how atoms work in the real world - electrons can only exist in distinct shells with specific energy levels, so when an electron moves down to a lower shell, it emits light at a very specific frequency. There are only so many shells, so light is only emitted at so many frequencies.

As we saw in the book, the god metals don’t do that. Together with what Brandon has said about atium atoms being ‘normal matter but wrapped in the spiritual’, I think we can make a few guesses about what’s going on.

I think that, when a god metal is heated, the electrons in the metal are not emitting energy at all (otherwise, we would see more spikes rather than a flat line on the spectrogram). The light/energy is being emitted by something else - the Spiritual/magical component of the metal. Either the electrons are transferring all their excess energy to the Spiritual component (spiritons?) or the electrons aren’t doing anything at all, and only the spiritons are absorbing the energy.

Then what is with the one red spike we see bavadinium emitting? Less likely idea: electrons are actually moving between two shells, and only two shells, creating one line. This would be very, very weird behaviour for an electron. More likely idea: the spiritons just have one specific frequency they really, really like. Maybe because it’s hard-coded into the Identity of the metal. Each Shard seems to have their own specific colour, which corresponds to this frequency.

If the god metals interact with things they come into contact with sometimes via electrons (like normal metals) and sometimes via spiritons, this could be a handy way of explaining how the god metals are technically matter, but still act in physics-breaking ways in certain situations. 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Shard metals fit into the same catagories present on the periodic table, as far as form and function, despite not being defined by atomic number.

I would think that the spectroscopy isn’t from electrons changing e-shells, but are rather converting to and from investititure.