Who won?[DISCUSS]

[+Oltux72 he/him]

In the short run of course Scadrial.

But the longer I consider this the more pyrrhic that victory looks.

• Scadrial lost 1/3 of its Mistborn
• Scadrial had to use up hard to replace munitions
• Scadrial used up whatever if took Kelsier to make the men of gold and red turn around
• Harmony and his sword are permanently estranged to an extent
• Harmony has to sent his Kandra out to missions that do not immediately serve him
• Harmony and the Ghostbloods are at odds
• Harmony is doubting himself
• possibly this led to Scadrial being forced into an aggressive foreign policy that will have made reconcilliation with Roshar impossible

and it cost her:

• the remainder of an organization she had written off
• an army marches needlessly
• Investiture she gets back in the medium term

I cannot help myself. Team Scadrial are not looking good.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

To be fair, a lot of that stuff with Saze and the GBs being at odds etc sounds like it was the status quo before any of this conflict had started.

[kenod]

I mean, a Pyrrhic victory is when you technically have a win, but the costs are just as big as if you had lost. And in this case, if Scadrial had lost, the place would be gone. Either the entire North would have been destroyed, or a hostile invasion would have subjugated or destroyed the planet.

Scadrial won, and even if it was a costly win, it's a lot better than what'd have happened to the world if they had lost. They will now have time to prepare, create new countermeasures, and have won what seems to be at least a decent number of decades of peace. The victory didn't cost them anything that'd make future defeat inevitable, nor did it do just as much damage as a loss would have.

Scadrial had a costly win, and Autonomy a small loss, but it was still a proper win, not a Pyrrhic one.

[Yumiya]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

and it cost her:

Well, it also gained autonomy a new enemy, one that she armed with the most dangerous weapon, knowledge. 

Also, Scadrial started off the book with one mistborn, Hoid (if Scadrial could be said to have him). It ends the book with two, with the addition of Wax. That is a net positive...

[bmcclure7]

11 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

In the short run of course Scadrial.

But the longer I consider this the more pyrrhic that victory looks.

• Scadrial lost 1/3 of its Mistborn
• Scadrial had to use up hard to replace munitions
• Scadrial used up whatever if took Kelsier to make the men of gold and red turn around
• Harmony and his sword are permanently estranged to an extent
• Harmony has to sent his Kandra out to missions that do not immediately serve him
• Harmony and the Ghostbloods are at odds
• Harmony is doubting himself
• possibly this led to Scadrial being forced into an aggressive foreign policy that will have made reconcilliation with Roshar impossible

and it cost her:

• the remainder of an organization she had written off
• an army marches needlessly
• Investiture she gets back in the medium term

I cannot help myself. Team Scadrial are not looking good.

 Let's be fair they also gained a lot.

 

1. The ability to create both of the lost metals. 

 2. nuclear weapons

3. captured spikes

 4. captured trelium 

5.  The knowledge of how to ethically create Temporary metal born.

6.  They also reap the benefits of the edmediately short lived eugenics program. 

[Frustration he/him]

7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 1. The ability to create both of the lost metals. . 

Just Atium for the moment.

[bmcclure7]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Just Atium for the moment.

 No that's just what he tells kelsier. 

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

 No that's just what he tells kelsier. 

And Wax.

And why bother lying if the first person to do it(Marsh) will find the Lerasium anyway?

[bmcclure7]

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And Wax.

And why bother lying if the first person to do it(Marsh) will find the Lerasium anyway?

Marsh isn't looking for Lerasium.  

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Marsh isn't looking for Lerasium.  

And that will change the outcome?

Proceedure on its own is enough.  Raboniel didn't know what Navani's plate would do, but it ejected Voidlight all the same.

Raboniel thought mixing stormlight and voidlight would cause them to destroy each other. That didn't happen. 

Intent is powerful, but not enough that a mere question about whether or not something will happen will change the outcome. 

[IndigoAjah he/him]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

And Wax.

And why bother lying if the first person to do it(Marsh) will find the Lerasium anyway?

Not even Wax.

 

It's also what he tells Wayne and he's dead so not much point in lying to him 

 

 ·

 

Quote

 

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Marsh isn't looking for Lerasium.  

 

And that will change the outcome?

 

Proceedure on its own is enough. Raboniel didn't know what Navani's plate would do, but it ejected Voidlight all the same.

 

Raboniel thought mixing stormlight and voidlight would cause them to destroy each other. That didn't happen. 

 

Intent is powerful, but not enough that a mere question about whether or not something will happen will change the outcome. 

 

It won't necessarily not change the outcome.

Evidently other people have also tried to make Lerasium in this way and failed, explicitly the Set, so unless Marsh can follow the EXACT procedure Wax used, he will still likely fail.

And we saw in this book other examples of where Intent inherently affects the outcome of process. 

 

However, I don't think Saze was lying, at least about his inability to replicate Lerasium so far. That doesn't mean he won't manage, as the title of the book implies that either Atium or Lerasium is more significant than the immediate resolution of the story lets on.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by IndigoAjah