Kelsier is hiding a lot

[lacrossedeamon]

4 hours ago, kenod said:

Keep in mind that it still isn't going to be nice. You're still having a decent chunk of your soul ripped away, which is going to have serious effects on you. It's going to be quite a bit worse than becoming a Drab, most likely, and probably won't be pretty. I imagine stuff like serious health issues, both physical and mental.

Which is why it's gunna be real bad when you try to economically incentivize people to do it anyways which is how I see Era 3 and Era 4 going.

[Frustration he/him]

16 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Which is why it's gunna be real bad when you try to economically incentivize people to do it anyways which is how I see Era 3 and Era 4 going.

Why would you need that when you have medallions?

[lacrossedeamon]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Why would you need that when you have medallions?

It's implied the Set was using the Excisors that are needed to create the medallions. And even then you've got to incentivize people to fill the medallions the cheapest way to do that is exploit a low income demographic. Southern Scadrial (and Ashyn) don't quite need an economic incentive since their populations just die if it doesn't happen but I still foresee some power dynamic stuff going on there when we explore those cultures more.

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

It's implied the Set was using the Excisors that are needed to create the medallions.

Where?

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

And even then you've got to incentivize people to fill the medallions the cheapest way to do that is exploit a low income demographic.

Actually the medallions don't seem to need filled, the power is innate to them. And slaves are cheaper, especially when as shown by breath the amount of money these powers are worth is in the tens of millions of dollars.

[lacrossedeamon]

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Where?

Kinda in the name. We know excisors are used to make medallions and we just saw the set using a device that "excises" part of a person's spiritweb.

 

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Actually the medallions don't seem to need filled, the power is innate to them. And slaves are cheaper, especially when as shown by breath the amount of money these powers are worth is in the tens of millions of dollars.

Where?

[Frustration he/him]

27 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Kinda in the name. We know excisors are used to make medallions and we just saw the set using a device that "excises" part of a person's spiritweb.

They just used a spike, the device just measured the Investiture.

28 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Where?

Jewles made enough money off her breath to feed herself, her parents, and her five siblings for a year. And since one breath is basically useless, an allomantic ability would be worth several times what one breath is worth.

[lacrossedeamon]

11 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

They just used a spike, the device just measured the Investiture.

If it was just a spike it would have killed the person. It was something new to the Basin.

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Jewles made enough money off her breath to feed herself, her parents, and her five siblings for a year. And since one breath is basically useless, an allomantic ability would be worth several times what one breath is worth.

Basically worthless except for keeping a Returned alive for another week. And we don't know how much it costs to feed a lower class family for a year in Halladren.

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, lacrossedeamon said:

If it was just a spike it would have killed the person. It was something new to the Basin.

No, the only thing different was the technique used. The scientists talk about trama and Command being helpful, and when we see the process it's just a spike.

1 minute ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Basically worthless except for keeping a Returned alive for another week. And we don't know how much it costs to feed a lower class family for a year in Halladren.

They owned and operated their own business, I would hardly call them lower class. And we might not have exact numbers we know that in pre-industrial societies that food was roughly 80% of a families spending.

[Proletariat]

I think it's clear that the southerners use hemalurgy given they only have the seeds of the metallic arts like everyone else (and we have never seen a non-Terris with feruchemy despite having it as a 'seed'). They either received some donated spikes from Kelsier for the necessary abilities that they've been reusing ever since, or they have been trying a lethal version of what the Set were doing in these scenes to produce the abilities in the first instance. It's worth noting that the medallions also start failing at 4 abilities much like standard hemalurgy in this Era. But that said this innovation is new to Kelsier as well, so obviously it's not quite what he offered to the Malwish.

[Stigmadiabolicum]

Kel not being Mistborn as a cognitive shadow made me curious, guess that's why heralds oathblades have their powers built in as unkeyed surgebinding anyone can use..

But makes him surrendering the bands make even less sense, unless they didn't work for him, but if he hid them to use in the future idk why he left clues for the southern Scadrians, but obviously one of his usual gambits haha.

Even a month later the implications of unkeyed Dor still has me so curious, definitely seems like era 3 and 4 will have no problem using abilities from any planet, a team of people with forgers and medallions could basically do anything. Maybe that's why honor made the nahel bond so binding haha, cultivation warned him to not let access to just anyone. Once they figure out a converter to utilize Stormlight to power anything, building on what Vasher is doing it'll be huge.

Although.. If those were skybreakers helping at the docks at the end we know spren can go off world. I guess we already knew that judging by the shardbearer spaceman in fifth dusk 2 preview.

I also didn't think the Set had some new spike, just a new, less intrusive method, i mean they've done more research in the field than anyone on the planet ever has haha, makes sense they've made a leap forward to non lethal spiking. I mean we know the person getting spiked isn't injured and the organs move out of the way, could be a similar thing if they aren't snagging an entire ability, just a small chunk of preservation. Wob explained the mist snapping was taking people who were at 35/40% of the way there and just pushing them past 50% to gain Allomancy. So theoretically you can just siphon some of that off from even non allomancers..5-6 people and boom you have one new misting.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Stigmadiabolicum

[lacrossedeamon]

30 minutes ago, Stigmadiabolicum said:

Once they figure out a converter to utilize Stormlight to power anything, building on what Vasher is doing it'll be huge.

Vasher can't actually use stormlight for awakening, he can only use it in place of the weekly breath needed to stay alive.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

On 11/16/2022 at 5:51 PM, Doonl said:

We finally got an in person meeting with ghost! kelsier, and while we already knew he was around and running the ghostbloods, we still learned a lot, which naturally leaves us with a lot of questions, which are as follows:

1) This meeting has rekindled my interest in a question from RoW, that being what the deal is with transporting investiture and invested beings. We knew that Kalak cant world hop, and are told my Mraize (who might be lying) that radiants cant either because of their connection to the spren and roshar. Mraize also says his goal is to figure out how to transport investiture, seemingly to be able to get kelsier off of Scadrial. However, not only do we meet several highly invested ghostbloods from different worlds on other planets (twinsoul, maybe moonlight, and several Seons), but given kelsiers stated goals it seems like leaving Scadrial should be lowish on his list of priorities.

2) A big deal is made about how the ghostbloods are a brotherhood. They keep no secrets from each other, they do not have infighting, they trust each other. However this seems to be demonstrably false. Most obviously, on roshar Mraize actively encourages conflict between his underlings to vye for position, and several of them attempt to murder shallan during her early initiation. And while this could maybe be excused as something Kelsier is unaware of given his restriction to scadrial (though that seems far feched given the apparently fanatic subservience to him by nearly all members of the ghostbloods), kelsier himself is not following his own rules. He pointedly avoids the question Marasi asks him of whether he himself keeps secrets from his underlings.

2.5) Kelsier can no longer use Allomancy, for reasons that we can only speculate on. However, he seems to imply in his Seon call with marasi that he can use steel. Is he lying  to her and his followers, or does he have a work around?

3) and finally, the biggest question to me, is why Sazed very clearly does not trust Kelsier. Sazed has, from the moment he took us Hamony and learned Kelsier was alive, obstructed kelsier, even if only by withholding information. He not only refused to, but lied about being able to return Kelsier to his body. He lied about the production of lerasium in the explosion in Wax's lab (As a note, sazed has clearly gotten better at lying to kelsier, probably through practice). He seems to have obstructed access through his perpendicularity, as the ghostbloods imply using it is difficult. He hides how dangerous the set and Autonomy are from Kelsier, despite an implication from Marsh that the three of them work together regularly. And, the very last line of their conversation in LM is a very strong implication that Sazed believes kelsier will one day be his enemy. Given Sazed has displayed a not inconsiderable ability to see the future, and holds the combination of two shards that could do the same, I find it hard to believe this was just an off handed comment. Not only that, but the potential conflict between the two is not because of a transformation into discord, but instead, "entirely up to [kelsier]."

 

In summation, given the future sight, hiding his agenda, lying to his underlings, and inconsistent nature of the ghost bloods goals, it seems reasonable to assume that kelsier will be engaging in something notably beyond his usual level of morally questionable murder, very likely entering full on villain territory.

It is not unsafe to name a child for Kelsier and if we were okay with his actions in TFE we should be okay with them going forward. Per WoB (That was given to me at JordanCon.)

I specifically mentioned being concerned about Kell becoming a villain, for additional context.

(In case you’re wondering: I named my daughter Vin. I did not know the gender when I asked the question.)

[Stigmadiabolicum]

A few notes, it's not just being invested that makes it hard to worldhop, most worldhoppers we know are highly invested haha..i mean Hoid has maxed out skill trees from 6 different magic systems we know of.

Demoux is an atium misting, Galladon is a full blown Elantrian, the Ire, obviously Shai can forge as we see here, and two different feruchemists and a Kandra on Roshar.

It's just specifically cognitive shadows, like the Heralds or Kel, they're intrinsically linked to their planet, remember Kel felt the tether pulling him again when he went out to where the Ire were on the border. We don't know if it's just an issue of connection or what, but like you said also affects those with a Nahel bond (though WoB has implied it would be possible to figure out a way to get it to work, otherwise Hoid is screwed, and the sixth of the dusk 2 preview showed a skybreaker off world) 

Returned like Vasher are the exception, not the rule, WoB clarified that Endowment basically hacked the system so the normal rules don't apply, but he still could only use stormlight to stay alive replacing breaths, until the row scene showed he could start awakening like Viv.

Clearly they've made big strides with the unkeyed Dor, and I'm sure once he gets Shai back to herself to get the Intel, the trick for non lethal hemalurgy will be huge, to swipe some of the innate Allomancy in all of the humans, snapped or not. 

I'm with you though, still unclear on the plan, why give up the bands, especially if he has no powers? Was he behind the malwish gambit to recover them from elendel? How would transported spheres help his condition..? If he's already tethered to a body, what's the next step to fully recover? 

Also, it does explain why Honorblades contain the powers, and are free for anyone to use, similar to the medallions, for the Heralds in a similar situation..gives them abilities they don't have innately m, but they can still have a spren bond, in Nales case

Maybe they could combine hemalurgy with unkeyed medallions, have one blended spike with all 8 powers to make you Mistborn (and avoid multiple spikes letting a future Discord control you) 

One detail though, Iyatils brother does say her and Mraize are going a bit off script, so the Roshar faction isn't fully representative of them as a whole. 

Everyone loves to demonize Kel based on the wob saying he could have been evil without the goal, but at the end of the day he does care about scadrial and loved Vin and his crew, definitely don't see them being a villain faction, and he made fair points to Sazed, obviously as harmony he's thinking big picture for civilizations growth and considering prime directive stuff, but with autonomy and odium out there, some rapid development is unavoidable and already necessary.

Also still curious about his line to the gang while he was on the airship, definitely implied he could steelpush over there but he was over water, is that just BSing to keep up appearances, or can he use a medallion? 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Stigmadiabolicum

[SwordNimiForPresident he/him]

I'm pretty sure Sazed doesn't trust Kelsier because Kelsier is going to end up as the Vessel of Autonomy, after he kills Bavadin of course. Kelsier having a Shard in the later on likely obscures Sazed's ability to see Kel's future and leaves him guessing about what he will do.

[Stigmadiabolicum]

@Trutharchivist in regards to your point about Kelsier/Ghostbloods behavior towards non-members, you're definitely right there 

But the point i thought you were going to add about Mraize and the roshar faction is they are clearly stated to be a bit rogue and off the reservation versus HQ on Scadrial. Iyatils brother makes a comment that her cell has been a bit extreme and going a bit off the reservation of their normal protocols and norms. So we cant take her and Mraizes actions with Lift and Raboniel and their murderous side missions as the norm. From what we've seen of Shai, the aether user and the rest in lost metal, they're pretty reasonable and not sinister. The only real morally grey concerning comment was Shai talking about the Sets discovery of non-fatal hemalurgy..but honestly, everyone's got a percentage of preservation, snapping them just tips them over the edge..so being able to access the small chunks and coalesce it together in one person non lethally is actually a pretty huge discovery, more like breaths, and possibly even heading towards unkeyed Dor for accessible investiture. I saw that more like an operation paper clip thing, make use of the data and science even if it was achieved through dubious or outright morally repugnant methods, so it wasn't a total waste. 

But yeah, so far the main faction is just a pro Scadrial larger reaching kelsiers crew. Honestly I think everyone always reads too much into WOBs about Kel and only being heroic in that setting, he definitely had flaws and a lot of chaotic Ruin in him, but secret history he comes a long way, genuinely cares about fuzz, the planet and the bigger picture

Now sure, this is centuries later, cognitive shadows definitely get mental health issues and we don't know if there's any ramifications of his new body and spike..but his discussion with Sazed at the end wasnt really that ominous or sinister, he just said they need to advance and get tech to face autonomy and the larger cosmere, and he doesn't think sazeds non-interference policy/prime directive is worth risking their people. 

The only hints we have of future scadrian actions are in First of the dusk and the intro of 2 where they do come across a bit shady, but that could also just be like elendel government in era 2, a bit rust and separate motivations from the hero factions