Kelsier is hiding a lot

[Doonl]

We finally got an in person meeting with ghost! kelsier, and while we already knew he was around and running the ghostbloods, we still learned a lot, which naturally leaves us with a lot of questions, which are as follows:

1) This meeting has rekindled my interest in a question from RoW, that being what the deal is with transporting investiture and invested beings. We knew that Kalak cant world hop, and are told my Mraize (who might be lying) that radiants cant either because of their connection to the spren and roshar. Mraize also says his goal is to figure out how to transport investiture, seemingly to be able to get kelsier off of Scadrial. However, not only do we meet several highly invested ghostbloods from different worlds on other planets (twinsoul, maybe moonlight, and several Seons), but given kelsiers stated goals it seems like leaving Scadrial should be lowish on his list of priorities.

2) A big deal is made about how the ghostbloods are a brotherhood. They keep no secrets from each other, they do not have infighting, they trust each other. However this seems to be demonstrably false. Most obviously, on roshar Mraize actively encourages conflict between his underlings to vye for position, and several of them attempt to murder shallan during her early initiation. And while this could maybe be excused as something Kelsier is unaware of given his restriction to scadrial (though that seems far feched given the apparently fanatic subservience to him by nearly all members of the ghostbloods), kelsier himself is not following his own rules. He pointedly avoids the question Marasi asks him of whether he himself keeps secrets from his underlings.

2.5) Kelsier can no longer use Allomancy, for reasons that we can only speculate on. However, he seems to imply in his Seon call with marasi that he can use steel. Is he lying  to her and his followers, or does he have a work around?

3) and finally, the biggest question to me, is why Sazed very clearly does not trust Kelsier. Sazed has, from the moment he took us Hamony and learned Kelsier was alive, obstructed kelsier, even if only by withholding information. He not only refused to, but lied about being able to return Kelsier to his body. He lied about the production of lerasium in the explosion in Wax's lab (As a note, sazed has clearly gotten better at lying to kelsier, probably through practice). He seems to have obstructed access through his perpendicularity, as the ghostbloods imply using it is difficult. He hides how dangerous the set and Autonomy are from Kelsier, despite an implication from Marsh that the three of them work together regularly. And, the very last line of their conversation in LM is a very strong implication that Sazed believes kelsier will one day be his enemy. Given Sazed has displayed a not inconsiderable ability to see the future, and holds the combination of two shards that could do the same, I find it hard to believe this was just an off handed comment. Not only that, but the potential conflict between the two is not because of a transformation into discord, but instead, "entirely up to [kelsier]."

 

In summation, given the future sight, hiding his agenda, lying to his underlings, and inconsistent nature of the ghost bloods goals, it seems reasonable to assume that kelsier will be engaging in something notably beyond his usual level of morally questionable murder, very likely entering full on villain territory.

[TheoreticalMagic]

Well, not necessarily. Given that Brandon has always held that Kelsier's NEVER been 'a good guy' per se, but was able to be a hero in the first Mistborn era because it was all relative to the Lord Ruler, and Kelsier's worst instincts/aspects were able to be channeled into a genuinely righteous cause by virtue of being all about opposing the Lord Ruler.....

And given the blatant hints that Sazed is becoming less about Harmony and verging more towards becoming Discord, and that there's even a possibility that Discord is a problem that will have to be faced in some way in Era 3....

I could see it being a VERY Sanderson-esque twist if it turns out that Kelsier IS slated to become a major antagonist to Sazed himself, which is something Sazed has long seen or sensed with his future sight, hence his wariness around him and lies to him.....

BUT the twist being their antagonism comes in the form of Kelsier once again being drafted as a necessary evil/the hero Scadrial needs, in order to oppose a Discord-ized Sazed should the latter succumb to his worst aspects in future books.

[Doonl]

41 minutes ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

Well, not necessarily. Given that Brandon has always held that Kelsier's NEVER been 'a good guy' per se, but was able to be a hero in the first Mistborn era because it was all relative to the Lord Ruler, and Kelsier's worst instincts/aspects were able to be channeled into a genuinely righteous cause by virtue of being all about opposing the Lord Ruler.....

And given the blatant hints that Sazed is becoming less about Harmony and verging more towards becoming Discord, and that there's even a possibility that Discord is a problem that will have to be faced in some way in Era 3....

I could see it being a VERY Sanderson-esque twist if it turns out that Kelsier IS slated to become a major antagonist to Sazed himself, which is something Sazed has long seen or sensed with his future sight, hence his wariness around him and lies to him.....

BUT the twist being their antagonism comes in the form of Kelsier once again being drafted as a necessary evil/the hero Scadrial needs, in order to oppose a Discord-ized Sazed should the latter succumb to his worst aspects in future books.

I agree that Sazed becoming Discord could lead him to be an antogonistic force in the future, but right now he is not, and his statement at the end of the Kelsier Epiloge in TLM is very clear: 

Quote

"I" Kelsier said, "am going to protect our people. Whatever it costs. Please tell me I won't ever have to protect them from you."

"That depends," Sazed said, "entirely upon you, old friend."

There is a clear implication that if Kelsier ever has need to defend the people of Scadrial from Sazed, it will be Kelsiers fault, not because Sazed's inevitable decline into Discord forced him. Given that Sazed has always chosen his words carefully even before being a shard, and the fact that this is the last conversation in the last book of Era 2 between two of the most important characters to the cosmere, I am inclined to believe that the exact wording is important. If a conflict between the two happens, it will be because of choices Kelsier will make (but has yet to do so).

[TheoreticalMagic]

2 hours ago, Doonl said:

I agree that Sazed becoming Discord could lead him to be an antogonistic force in the future, but right now he is not, and his statement at the end of the Kelsier Epiloge in TLM is very clear: 

There is a clear implication that if Kelsier ever has need to defend the people of Scadrial from Sazed, it will be Kelsiers fault, not because Sazed's inevitable decline into Discord forced him. Given that Sazed has always chosen his words carefully even before being a shard, and the fact that this is the last conversation in the last book of Era 2 between two of the most important characters to the cosmere, I am inclined to believe that the exact wording is important. If a conflict between the two happens, it will be because of choices Kelsier will make (but has yet to do so).

See, I totally agree with you that Sazed is not an antagonistic force CURRENTLY, though he might become one in the future - but neither is their outright antagonism current. Its also something that only exists in a hypothetical future. As such....Sazed's statement could only be taken as a complete assurance that any conflict foreshadowed by Brandon will be Kelsier's fault....if Sazed were infallible in his insights into the future, and we know for a fact that this is not always the case....ESPECIALLY where he himself is concerned. Its a well-established cosmere trope that everybody with some degree or means of future sight has blindspots when it comes to their own future. 

Plus, there's the possibility of unreliable narration ie Sazed not being able to be taken totally at face value when you consider the many kinds of misdirection and obfuscation these two engage in regularly. We know Sazed himself has self-doubts/concerns about what he might do in the future, given the potential dark side of Harmony aka Discord....and Sazed, better than anyone, knows how quick Kelsier is to look for any self-justification for the more dubiously ethical things he does. He had a front row seat to how Kelsier was able to spin his war against the Lord Ruler (a righteous cause) into an excuse to do anything he felt was necessary, so I could see Sazed being very concerned at how much more this older Kelsier might be able to justify to himself if he were once again convinced he was on the morally right side of the fight. Especially if the person he might someday be opposing is Sazed himself....one of the only people who normally IS around or able to talk Kelsier down from his most amoral decisions. Meaning this line from Sazed isn't necessarily a truism about the nature of any future conflict between them, but could just as easily be a massive bluff on Sazed's part, something he says in the hopes of encouraging Kelsier to be more sedate and circumspect about how he operates in the name of protecting Scadrial....because Sazed's aware that he might not always be in a position TO talk Kelsier down, and he's throwing out anything to try and get Kelsier to be more conscientious about his decision-making while he still has the chance.

Ultimately, I'm just saying....I DO agree that a future conflict between Kelsier and Sazed is being heavily foreshadowed, and I'm not by any means trying to actually rule out the possibility that its Kelsier's fault, and he goes full villain in the future....I'm just saying it would be within Brandon's wheelhouse to avert course on that trajectory after using it as a red herring about the true nature of a future Kelsier vs Sazed showdown. And that I don't think anything EITHER Kelsier or Sazed says can definitively taken as proof of 'who's likely to be in the right' as of this point in time....because both are extremely biased and unreliable narrators, since they both are characters who always act in accordance to what they presume to be the right/necessary course of action, even when they're in total disagreement. Its up to the larger narrative to shape the context of who is actually 'more in the right' and until we have that actual context, it could go either way, with each character's assumptions or insinuations about the other being equally suspect when they're based on a hypothetical conflict whose actual origins or inciting actions haven't actually happened yet.

[Doonl]

6 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

See, I totally agree with you that Sazed is not an antagonistic force CURRENTLY, though he might become one in the future - but neither is their outright antagonism current. Its also something that only exists in a hypothetical future. As such....Sazed's statement could only be taken as a complete assurance that any conflict foreshadowed by Brandon will be Kelsier's fault....if Sazed were infallible in his insights into the future, and we know for a fact that this is not always the case....ESPECIALLY where he himself is concerned. Its a well-established cosmere trope that everybody with some degree or means of future sight has blindspots when it comes to their own future. 

Plus, there's the possibility of unreliable narration ie Sazed not being able to be taken totally at face value when you consider the many kinds of misdirection and obfuscation these two engage in regularly. We know Sazed himself has self-doubts/concerns about what he might do in the future, given the potential dark side of Harmony aka Discord....and Sazed, better than anyone, knows how quick Kelsier is to look for any self-justification for the more dubiously ethical things he does. He had a front row seat to how Kelsier was able to spin his war against the Lord Ruler (a righteous cause) into an excuse to do anything he felt was necessary, so I could see Sazed being very concerned at how much more this older Kelsier might be able to justify to himself if he were once again convinced he was on the morally right side of the fight. Especially if the person he might someday be opposing is Sazed himself....one of the only people who normally IS around or able to talk Kelsier down from his most amoral decisions. Meaning this line from Sazed isn't necessarily a truism about the nature of any future conflict between them, but could just as easily be a massive bluff on Sazed's part, something he says in the hopes of encouraging Kelsier to be more sedate and circumspect about how he operates in the name of protecting Scadrial....because Sazed's aware that he might not always be in a position TO talk Kelsier down, and he's throwing out anything to try and get Kelsier to be more conscientious about his decision-making while he still has the chance.

Ultimately, I'm just saying....I DO agree that a future conflict between Kelsier and Sazed is being heavily foreshadowed, and I'm not by any means trying to actually rule out the possibility that its Kelsier's fault, and he goes full villain in the future....I'm just saying it would be within Brandon's wheelhouse to avert course on that trajectory after using it as a red herring about the true nature of a future Kelsier vs Sazed showdown. And that I don't think anything EITHER Kelsier or Sazed says can definitively taken as proof of 'who's likely to be in the right' as of this point in time....because both are extremely biased and unreliable narrators, since they both are characters who always act in accordance to what they presume to be the right/necessary course of action, even when they're in total disagreement. Its up to the larger narrative to shape the context of who is actually 'more in the right' and until we have that actual context, it could go either way, with each character's assumptions or insinuations about the other being equally suspect when they're based on a hypothetical conflict whose actual origins or inciting actions haven't actually happened yet.

I think the key here is that Sazed does not want to fight kelsier. Unless Sazed has changed more than I think he has since Era 1, he is not the kind of person who actively plans ways to subvert his friends. Sure, he lies to kelsier to keep his fingers out of certain pies, but also seems to more or less let kelsier do what he wants. Beyond that I read it less as manipulation and more a warning to kelsier to be careful, not only because Sazed would be a dangerous enemy, but because Sazed has kelsier's best interests at heart and probably sees any path involving Kelsier and Sazed fighting as a loosing one.

Also, Sazed does not want to be discord. He very likely will do anything in his power to avoid in. That, combined with the fact that conflict between the two would require either Sazed to be discord, or Kelsier to take some genuinely evil actions, I think sazed is telling the truth. In either scenario he is trying to avoid a conflict, and an attempt to change kelsier's actions is the best way to go about that. That last part of kelsiers half of the quot is very important. In the future Sazed is alluding to, Kelsier is defending the people of Scadrial from Sazed. This is something that almost certainly requires Sazed to be Discord. If that is the case, it is very likely that current Sazed would certainly be against the actions of his future self, and thus give Kelsier any help he can. Sazed's statement does not apply to if Kelsier and Sazed are in opposition over something else, but in that case kelsier is probably still the responsible party, knowing him.

If I had to guess at the source of the conflict between them, Kelsier is going to somehow pressure kelsier to take action, whether that be to stop kelsier or to work with him. We already know Kelsier is frustrated with how little Sazed does, so him pushing a change to that makes sense. However, the actions taken by Sazed because of this will the final straw to turn him into Discord, who's intent then forces Kelsier to defend the people of Scadrial against him.

[Trutharchivist]

Umm... Just wanted to say a few things, not about Kelsier, Harmony and Discord but about the Ghostbloods: people seem to think that Kelsier and Mraize break rules of the Ghostbloods, but there's something important they are missing: Kell didn't answer Marasi's question... Because she wasn't a Ghostblood yet. Mraize allowed his people to attack Shallan... Because she wasn't a Ghostblood yet. Being on the recruitment list doesn't make you an instant member in relation to the rules. Is Mraize straying from Kelsier's idea of how those things should be handled? Probably. Does Kelsier lie through his teeth to his subordinates? Of course. You do remember that his master plan in the one book he was alive required him to lie to his crew, right? Still, both of them didn't directly break any of the Ghostblood rules - not, at least, in apparent ways. I don't think Kelsier implied that he was steelpushing in the Seon call, but that's just a matter of debate.

Also, in relation to Discord, it seems to me that all too often people forget where the idea of Harmony becoming Discord came from originally: "...His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it." -from the original Terris prophesies, in one of the Final Empire epigraphs. Unless it was changed by Ruin (which I think implausible), it was actually part of Preservation's plan. Maybe - just maybe - being Harmony is what freezes Saze, and he needs to become Discord to be more active.

It could still be a problem, though.

[Captain Coffee]

14 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

Well, not necessarily. Given that Brandon has always held that Kelsier's NEVER been 'a good guy' per se, but was able to be a hero in the first Mistborn era because it was all relative to the Lord Ruler, and Kelsier's worst instincts/aspects were able to be channeled into a genuinely righteous cause by virtue of being all about opposing the Lord Ruler.....

And given the blatant hints that Sazed is becoming less about Harmony and verging more towards becoming Discord, and that there's even a possibility that Discord is a problem that will have to be faced in some way in Era 3....

I could see it being a VERY Sanderson-esque twist if it turns out that Kelsier IS slated to become a major antagonist to Sazed himself, which is something Sazed has long seen or sensed with his future sight, hence his wariness around him and lies to him.....

BUT the twist being their antagonism comes in the form of Kelsier once again being drafted as a necessary evil/the hero Scadrial needs, in order to oppose a Discord-ized Sazed should the latter succumb to his worst aspects in future books.

I think something like this is the most likely option. Brandon has been trying to convince us for a long time in interviews and answers to questions that Kelsier would be a villain in some upcoming Cosmere project, whether Stormlight, Mistborn, or something else. But, seeing the Ghostbloods on Scadrial, I think Mraize is operating way outside Kelsier's preferred methods. I mean, I can't see Kelsier trying to hurt Lift. 

 

I think the twist is going to be that something happens to Sazed between now and the end of Era 3 book 1, and Kelsier has to get a crew together to either stop Sazed or return him to himself. Maybe even helping Sazed grow into something like Creation (which is another possible combination of preservation and Ruin).

[Doonl]

9 hours ago, Captain Coffee said:

I think something like this is the most likely option. Brandon has been trying to convince us for a long time in interviews and answers to questions that Kelsier would be a villain in some upcoming Cosmere project, whether Stormlight, Mistborn, or something else. But, seeing the Ghostbloods on Scadrial, I think Mraize is operating way outside Kelsier's preferred methods. I mean, I can't see Kelsier trying to hurt Lift. 

 

I think the twist is going to be that something happens to Sazed between now and the end of Era 3 book 1, and Kelsier has to get a crew together to either stop Sazed or return him to himself. Maybe even helping Sazed grow into something like Creation (which is another possible combination of preservation and Ruin).

My problem with this idea is that Current Sazed would not support the theoretical actions of Discord Sazed, so why would he be so cagy and try to warn kelsier away from this? If this were the case Sazed would be doing everything he could to set up measures to defeat his future self. 

 

11 hours ago, Trutharchivist said:

Also, in relation to Discord, it seems to me that all too often people forget where the idea of Harmony becoming Discord came from originally: "...His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it." -from the original Terris prophesies, in one of the Final Empire epigraphs. Unless it was changed by Ruin (which I think implausible), it was actually part of Preservation's plan. Maybe - just maybe - being Harmony is what freezes Saze, and he needs to become Discord to be more active.

It could still be a problem, though.

This is a great point that I had forgotten about, but we also have to remember that the prophecies from TFE never ended up being easily predictable, and also that we have seen all kinds of horrible dictators who's people love them. It is very possible for Sazed to be a threat to the people of Scadrial while they still love him.

11 hours ago, Trutharchivist said:

Umm... Just wanted to say a few things, not about Kelsier, Harmony and Discord but about the Ghostbloods: people seem to think that Kelsier and Mraize break rules of the Ghostbloods, but there's something important they are missing: Kell didn't answer Marasi's question... Because she wasn't a Ghostblood yet. Mraize allowed his people to attack Shallan... Because she wasn't a Ghostblood yet. Being on the recruitment list doesn't make you an instant member in relation to the rules. Is Mraize straying from Kelsier's idea of how those things should be handled? Probably. Does Kelsier lie through his teeth to his subordinates? Of course. You do remember that his master plan in the one book he was alive required him to lie to his crew, right? Still, both of them didn't directly break any of the Ghostblood rules - not, at least, in apparent ways. I don't think Kelsier implied that he was steelpushing in the Seon call, but that's just a matter of debate.

You are right that Shallan and Marasi are noto actually in the ghostbloods, so the rules Kelsier laid out are not technically being broken, but it still feels like a breach in the spirit of the rules, especially in Mraize's  case. However more importantly, Sure kelsier does not need to answer to Marasi, but why would he not just say "no of course I tell my organization everything" unless it is not true. He dodges that question very specifically. Also, Kelsier for sure could have told the crew about his master plan. They would not have liked it but their not knowing about it was never a requirment. 

For Kelsier steelpushing he literally says that he is in an airship but steelpushing would not be faster cause he is over an ocean. Idk how that isnt implying he can steelpush, otherwise why bother mentioning it in the first place. It would be like me, a regular person saying "yea the flight lands in 3 hours. Running there using super speed would be faster but im over the ocean." It makes not sense unless he can steelpush

[Trutharchivist]

10 hours ago, Doonl said:

This is a great point that I had forgotten about, but we also have to remember that the prophecies from TFE never ended up being easily predictable, and also that we have seen all kinds of horrible dictators who's people love them. It is very possible for Sazed to be a threat to the people of Scadrial while they still love him.

Good point. I don't think that's the intention, but you're right that it could be.

 

10 hours ago, Doonl said:

You are right that Shallan and Marasi are noto actually in the ghostbloods, so the rules Kelsier laid out are not technically being broken, but it still feels like a breach in the spirit of the rules, especially in Mraize's  case. However more importantly, Sure kelsier does not need to answer to Marasi, but why would he not just say "no of course I tell my organization everything" unless it is not true. He dodges that question very specifically. Also, Kelsier for sure could have told the crew about his master plan. They would not have liked it but their not knowing about it was never a requirment. 

Mraize is probably sticking to the word of the rules. He did point out that Shallan was fine killing Tyn because Tyn wasn't a Ghostblood. Shallan herself was the one who realized that by saying she might join them but she's not there yet Mraize implied to people that they can attempt to kill her. Is he breaking the spirit of the rules? Probably, maybe. But he doesn't break the word of the rules.

Kell probably does hide things from his crew, but avoiding answering questions asked by outsiders is something all the Ghostbloods were seen doing, as a method to intrigue new recruits. This specific question should be easy enough, but maybe he meant to indicate that there's no need to say it, obviously he doesn't keep secrets. Which, since it him, could easily be interpreted as the opposite. In relation to lying to his original crew - it was necessary in that if they knew what he was up to they'd have tried to dissuade or stop him from going through with his plans. It could be that he'd still have succeeded, but that'd be a pain.

10 hours ago, Doonl said:

For Kelsier steelpushing he literally says that he is in an airship but steelpushing would not be faster cause he is over an ocean. Idk how that isnt implying he can steelpush, otherwise why bother mentioning it in the first place. It would be like me, a regular person saying "yea the flight lands in 3 hours. Running there using super speed would be faster but im over the ocean." It makes not sense unless he can steelpush

I'm sorry to say it like that, but... Did you know that airships are big? And are propelled by steelpushing? And that not every traveller on an airship is by necessity Steelpushing? What he said could easily be interpreted as "persuading the ship's crew to throw things off to steelpush off of wouldn't help, since we're oven water". It's not impossible that he is lying to his crew about his powers, but it's not by necessity the case here.

[Inquisitor #5]

2 hours ago, Trutharchivist said:

I'm sorry to say it like that, but... Did you know that airships are big? And are propelled by steelpushing?

Yes, they are propelled by Steelpushing, but they don't push off grounded anchors, as far as we know.

The Wilg in Bands uses a Push to launch and to drive the fans and, beyond the additional machinery required to cheat the physics for something so massive, we have no reason to suspect that the proper airships work under other principles.

Quote

Wax stood in the center of the small vessel, Pushing against some kind of plate below, designed—obviously—for this very purpose. It would be attached to the shelf the vessel had been on—not something that rose with it, but some kind of launchpad for an Allomancer to use as an anchor.

-BoM, chapter 21

Quote

The little man turned and snapped the cube into place under the shelf under the shelf at the front of the ship. The machine shook, and then something started thumping underneath them. A fan? Yes, a very large one, blowing downward, powered by an unseen motor.

"You can let go, Great Being of Metals," the man said, looking back at Wax. "If it suits your divine desires."

Wax eased off on his Push. They immediately started to sink.

"Reduce your weight!" the man cried. "I mean, if it is aligned with your magnificent will, O Metabolic One."

"Metabolic?" Wax asked, filling his metalmind and decreasing his weight. The ship stabilised in the air.

-BoM, chapter 21

This pretty clearly indicates that while a Push is a viable method of launch, what gives lift once you're in the air is the fan.

Quote

The fans whirred and the ship began to move—not quickly, but steadily—away from the enemy camp.

-BoM, chapter 21

And here we see that propulsion is also via fans, not (directly) Pushes.

Quote

Wax could now see that the ship had landed only half on the building. One fan spun lazily, keeping the ship in place.

-BoM, chapter 31

(Quote slightly inaccurate, my browser is not allowing me to bold or itallicise, "half" should be in itallics.)

Quote

Unfortunately, the fun of the game could only distract him for so long. They'd been playing for half an hour ehen he topped a building and was confronted by an awesome sight. The Malwish ship he'd seen earlier had come closer.

The wooden construction, moved by giant fans, loomed in the air over Elendel.

-tLM, chapter 7

All this suggests that all known southern designs are moved with the fans, not Steelpushes. Pushes appear to power the fans, but don't seem to be directly involved in moving the ships.

Such a design would also be highly irresponsible, as the ships would have to periodically drop new Allomantic anchors onto an unsuspecting surface, possibly with people on it.

It also would not work over deep water, because the anchors would sink out of reach and it would require ships to carry extra metal, which could be a significant weight, unless they can also lessen the weight of cargo.

Quote

"Do what you can," Kelsier said. "I will try to accelerate my arrival, but the truth is that I don't know how much I can do. I'm traveling over water, and so can't go much faster than I currently am. Dropping things to Steelpush off doesn't do much with an ocean underneath you."

-tLM, chapter 40

Assuming that Kelsier is on an airship that follows the same principle as every airship we've seen on "screen" and not a totally different model that works on direct Pushes, the above definitely implies that he has access to travel by Steelpush, be that under his own power, via an ettmetal powered harness or just strapped to a coinshot.

To me it definitely reads as "traveling by Steelpush, which is an alternative I have, would be faster than the airship, but there happens to be an ocean, so that's not viable."

3 hours ago, Trutharchivist said:

And that not every traveller on an airship is by necessity Steelpushing?

Ideally none of them are, that seems to be something that you use a primer cube for, so long as you're not out of ettmetal.

3 hours ago, Trutharchivist said:

It's not impossible that he is lying to his crew about his powers, but it's not by necessity the case here.

I agree with you on this. It's a lie by omission to the reader, implying (and reinforcing what we seemingly learned in BoM) that Kelsier is still an Allomancer. However, we don't know what his agents know, he might be keeping them in the dark or they might know that he has some means of accessing it outside his own powers, we only know that they don't contradict him on it.

14 hours ago, Doonl said:

My problem with this idea is that Current Sazed would not support the theoretical actions of Discord Sazed, so why would he be so cagy and try to warn kelsier away from this?

I have a few ideas:

At times he seems similar to how Leras was close to when he died, not capable of much. Wax has to tell him to act himself, not just arrange the pieces and hope they move as he wants.

There's probably some disconnect between the Vessel and the Shard(s), like we've seen in Stormlight. The person wants one thing, the power(s) another.

He probably still cares about Kelsier, as a person due to the connection between Sazed and Kell, as a splinter (or something like it) and sliver of Preservation, through his Connection to Ruin. He probably does not want to oppose Kelsier or be opposed by him.

 

 

We also know that the Ruin/Preservation imbalance that allowed Ruin to become more powerful in the past isn't fixed, and will probably only get worse as Scadrial's population grows. That bodes ill.

Then Sazed is being shaped by two opposed Intents, which I wouldn't be suprised if it takes a larger/quicker toll on the Vessel than a standard Shard. Because of the conflicting Intents he can barely act already, so it might be hard to do that kind of planning.

Add to the above that he's protecting Scadrial, which may or may not mean that Ruin is chomping at the bit the entire way.

And on the Intents, it can be hard for him to act without fighting either Intent, so the power might not be held as well as it could be.

It wouldn't be strange if he's also afraid of showing weakness at the moment, so he tries to hide it.

All of this to say that even if he admits that something is happening to him and he wants to stop it, he might not be able, or nearly so, to plan against it.

Also, he might not want to admit weakness to Kelsier in particular, because he might get ideas.

There's also this bit from the Ars Arcanum that is quite distressing:

Quote

Modern souls, however seem to simply reject spikes of this magnitude. Further research is required, but I believe that this has something to do with the nature of Ruin's subservience to Preservation in the current dual vessel known as Harmony.

-tLM, Ars Arcanum

To me that sounds capital B Bad. That seems fundamentally wrong and reads as a very bad sign.

With all the little mentions of Harmony being erratic or the shadow behind him or whatever, from several sources, and the above, it seems the balance of Harmony is very much unstable and possibly not even really there.

 

Apologies if this is all too wordy or hard to follow.

 

¤_¤

[Doonl]

12 hours ago, Trutharchivist said:

I'm sorry to say it like that, but... Did you know that airships are big? And are propelled by steelpushing? And that not every traveller on an airship is by necessity Steelpushing? What he said could easily be interpreted as "persuading the ship's crew to throw things off to steelpush off of wouldn't help, since we're oven water". It's not impossible that he is lying to his crew about his powers, but it's not by necessity the case here.

Inquisitor already mentioned this, but yea the implication of the quote was clearly that kelsier would leave the airship and travel by steelpushing himself it he wasn't over the ocean

 

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I have a few ideas:

At times he seems similar to how Leras was close to when he died, not capable of much. Wax has to tell him to act himself, not just arrange the pieces and hope they move as he wants.

There's probably some disconnect between the Vessel and the Shard(s), like we've seen in Stormlight. The person wants one thing, the power(s) another.

He probably still cares about Kelsier, as a person due to the connection between Sazed and Kell, as a splinter (or something like it) and sliver of Preservation, through his Connection to Ruin. He probably does not want to oppose Kelsier or be opposed by him.

 

 

We also know that the Ruin/Preservation imbalance that allowed Ruin to become more powerful in the past isn't fixed, and will probably only get worse as Scadrial's population grows. That bodes ill.

Then Sazed is being shaped by two opposed Intents, which I wouldn't be suprised if it takes a larger/quicker toll on the Vessel than a standard Shard. Because of the conflicting Intents he can barely act already, so it might be hard to do that kind of planning.

Add to the above that he's protecting Scadrial, which may or may not mean that Ruin is chomping at the bit the entire way.

And on the Intents, it can be hard for him to act without fighting either Intent, so the power might not be held as well as it could be.

It wouldn't be strange if he's also afraid of showing weakness at the moment, so he tries to hide it.

All of this to say that even if he admits that something is happening to him and he wants to stop it, he might not be able, or nearly so, to plan against it.

Also, he might not want to admit weakness to Kelsier in particular, because he might get ideas.

There's also this bit from the Ars Arcanum that is quite distressing:

-tLM, Ars Arcanum

To me that sounds capital B Bad. That seems fundamentally wrong and reads as a very bad sign.

With all the little mentions of Harmony being erratic or the shadow behind him or whatever, from several sources, and the above, it seems the balance of Harmony is very much unstable and possibly not even really there.

 

Apologies if this is all too wordy or hard to follow.

 

¤_¤

I am not arguing that Sazed is not going to turn into discord, or that he will not be some type of antagonist in the future, only that his final statement to Kelsier do not make sense with our current understanding of Sazed as he is now unless he is telling the truth. He has no reason to deceive kelsier into thinking he will never be a threat to kelsier unless he already is, which I dont think is the case. Pretty much the only scenario I can imagine where Kelsier is defending Scadrial from Sazed is if Sazed is Discord, something Current Sazed should and would work against, even if only by verbally warning Kelsier against causing it. What other reason would he have for making Kelsier believe that he is the deciding factor on their conflict. 

We have been told before that the more a vessel acts against the intent of the shard, the more the intent will take over, so Sazed taking action is very likely to be what causes him to finally turn into Discord. That said, who in this book is constantly complaining that Sazed needs to do more? Kelsier. I'm not saying Kelsier will want a fight with Sazed, only that it will be his fault.

[IndigoAjah]

On 16/11/2022 at 11:00 PM, TheoreticalMagic said:

Well, not necessarily. Given that Brandon has always held that Kelsier's NEVER been 'a good guy' per se, but was able to be a hero in the first Mistborn era because it was all relative to the Lord Ruler, and Kelsier's worst instincts/aspects were able to be channeled into a genuinely righteous cause by virtue of being all about opposing the Lord Ruler.....

And given the blatant hints that Sazed is becoming less about Harmony and verging more towards becoming Discord, and that there's even a possibility that Discord is a problem that will have to be faced in some way in Era 3....

I could see it being a VERY Sanderson-esque twist if it turns out that Kelsier IS slated to become a major antagonist to Sazed himself, which is something Sazed has long seen or sensed with his future sight, hence his wariness around him and lies to him.....

BUT the twist being their antagonism comes in the form of Kelsier once again being drafted as a necessary evil/the hero Scadrial needs, in order to oppose a Discord-ized Sazed should the latter succumb to his worst aspects in future books.

I'm pretty sure we'll see Scadrial as the battleground once again between two ominous, villainous but not really outright evil and to some degree well intentioned, opposite forces. Discord and Thaidakkar. 

 

And both will see innocents lost as collateral 

[Seana]

On 11/16/2022 at 3:51 PM, Doonl said:

We finally got an in person meeting with ghost! kelsier, and while we already knew he was around and running the ghostbloods, we still learned a lot, which naturally leaves us with a lot of questions, which are as follows:

1) This meeting has rekindled my interest in a question from RoW, that being what the deal is with transporting investiture and invested beings. We knew that Kalak cant world hop, and are told my Mraize (who might be lying) that radiants cant either because of their connection to the spren and roshar. Mraize also says his goal is to figure out how to transport investiture, seemingly to be able to get kelsier off of Scadrial. However, not only do we meet several highly invested ghostbloods from different worlds on other planets (twinsoul, maybe moonlight, and several Seons), but given kelsiers stated goals it seems like leaving Scadrial should be lowish on his list of priorities.

2) A big deal is made about how the ghostbloods are a brotherhood. They keep no secrets from each other, they do not have infighting, they trust each other. However this seems to be demonstrably false. Most obviously, on roshar Mraize actively encourages conflict between his underlings to vye for position, and several of them attempt to murder shallan during her early initiation. And while this could maybe be excused as something Kelsier is unaware of given his restriction to scadrial (though that seems far feched given the apparently fanatic subservience to him by nearly all members of the ghostbloods), kelsier himself is not following his own rules. He pointedly avoids the question Marasi asks him of whether he himself keeps secrets from his underlings.

2.5) Kelsier can no longer use Allomancy, for reasons that we can only speculate on. However, he seems to imply in his Seon call with marasi that he can use steel. Is he lying  to her and his followers, or does he have a work around?

3) and finally, the biggest question to me, is why Sazed very clearly does not trust Kelsier. Sazed has, from the moment he took us Hamony and learned Kelsier was alive, obstructed kelsier, even if only by withholding information. He not only refused to, but lied about being able to return Kelsier to his body. He lied about the production of lerasium in the explosion in Wax's lab (As a note, sazed has clearly gotten better at lying to kelsier, probably through practice). He seems to have obstructed access through his perpendicularity, as the ghostbloods imply using it is difficult. He hides how dangerous the set and Autonomy are from Kelsier, despite an implication from Marsh that the three of them work together regularly. And, the very last line of their conversation in LM is a very strong implication that Sazed believes kelsier will one day be his enemy. Given Sazed has displayed a not inconsiderable ability to see the future, and holds the combination of two shards that could do the same, I find it hard to believe this was just an off handed comment. Not only that, but the potential conflict between the two is not because of a transformation into discord, but instead, "entirely up to [kelsier]."

 

In summation, given the future sight, hiding his agenda, lying to his underlings, and inconsistent nature of the ghost bloods goals, it seems reasonable to assume that kelsier will be engaging in something notably beyond his usual level of morally questionable murder, very likely entering full on villain territory.

Personally; I think that Mraize and others like him are part of the reason Sazed doesn’t trust Kelsier. Kelsier will do everything in his power to make Scadrial the way he wants it. Kelsier, Mraize, and Autonomy are very similar in that regard. They’re ok with “lackeys” doing their thing in their own way- as long as that way ultimately gets the results that were a part of the bigger picture plan.

Kelsier has also made an exception to his rules for himself- he always has.

Kelsier will hold Scadrial in a DEATH grip. I think without Marsh there to balance him out, keep him relatively sane, and trying to convince him to move on, he will start to view Sazed as he did the Lord Ruler- and turn the Ghostbloods into his new God-killers. Perhaps Kelsier himself would then try to Ascend and become Discord himself.

[lacrossedeamon]

A bit of a tangent but one only needs to look to Nalthis for reasons why Sazed might want to oppose Kelsier's plan to democratize Investiture. It easily slides into capitalize Investiture.

[Frustration]

19 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

A bit of a tangent but one only needs to look to Nalthis for reasons why Sazed might want to oppose Kelsier's plan to democratize Investiture. It easily slides into capitalize Investiture.

I've had conversations about this before, but I don't see any problems with awakening.

Would you please explain your thoughts here?

[Lightspine]

Has anyone considered that Kelsier's steelpushing comment might not have been referring to himself? Some of his agents in Elendel appear to be coinshots, and Wax constantly gives people lifts with his ability. If Kelsier were traveling with a Ghostblood member who was a coinshot, it might explain that comment without the need for lying.

[lacrossedeamon]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I've had conversations about this before, but I don't see any problems with awakening.

Would you please explain your thoughts here?

Everyone having Breaths that are transferrable and even treated as a commodity provides an extra incentive to maintain a wealth gap so that there is always demographic oppressed enough to resort to selling their Breaths

[Frustration]

10 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Everyone having Breaths that are transferrable and even treated as a commodity provides an extra incentive to maintain a wealth gap so that there is always demographic oppressed enough to resort to selling their Breaths

If you're that desperate for breaths it would be thousands of times easier to simply have a slave class, who either have to give up their breath as soon as they are old enough to speak.

And that's ignoring the fact that hemalurgy can steal any magic system.

So breath is actually the most fair of any system as you don't have to die to give power away. There's a reason that Scadrial murders people for their power while drabs get enough money to take care of themselves for eight years.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[kenod]

14 hours ago, Lightspine said:

Has anyone considered that Kelsier's steelpushing comment might not have been referring to himself? Some of his agents in Elendel appear to be coinshots, and Wax constantly gives people lifts with his ability. If Kelsier were traveling with a Ghostblood member who was a coinshot, it might explain that comment without the need for lying.

Recent WoB says the Ghostbloods think Kelsier still has Allomancy:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e16002

Quote

Sethcran

When Kelsier said in The Lost Metal that he couldn't Steelpush over water, do the Ghostbloods think that Kelsier has his Allomantic powers, and is he lying to them about it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they think he has Allomantic powers still.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

This also implies that even if he did have a Coinshot nearby, he still wouldn't have asked them for a lift, unless they had no connection to the Ghostbloods, since otherwise it'd blow the secret wide open anyway.

Edited December 16, 2022 by kenod

[CognitiveShadow]

15 hours ago, Lightspine said:

Has anyone considered that Kelsier's steelpushing comment might not have been referring to himself? Some of his agents in Elendel appear to be coinshots, and Wax constantly gives people lifts with his ability. If Kelsier were traveling with a Ghostblood member who was a coinshot, it might explain that comment without the need for lying.

Brandon confirmed that Kelsier is lying and the Ghostbloods think he is still an allomancer.

 

edit: sorry just saw that @kenod already answered this!

Edited December 16, 2022 by Ookla the Shadow

[Lightspine]

1 hour ago, kenod said:

Recent WoB says the Ghostbloods think Kelsier still has Allomancy:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e16002

This also implies that even if he did have a Coinshot nearby, he still wouldn't have asked them for a lift, unless they had no connection to the Ghostbloods, since otherwise it'd blow the secret wide open anyway.

 

20 minutes ago, Ookla the Shadow said:

Brandon confirmed that Kelsier is lying and the Ghostbloods think he is still an allomancer.

 

edit: sorry just saw that @kenod already answered this!

Ah, nevermind then. Seems like that should be a difficult thing to keep hidden if he interacts with them a lot but he must have his tricks.

Also curious to know how he got to the top of the skyscraper in his epilogue.

[kenod]

2 hours ago, Lightspine said:

 

Ah, nevermind then. Seems like that should be a difficult thing to keep hidden if he interacts with them a lot but he must have his tricks.

Also curious to know how he got to the top of the skyscraper in his epilogue.

It's good to keep in mind that Kelsier is a master con-artist who scammed the FE nobility long before ever getting Allomancy, and had enough charisma and ability to work with people to get himself declared a god. Avoiding situation where he'd have to use Allomancy is probably fairly doable for him.

As for the skyscraper, not sure. Maybe he took an elevator to the roof? Not sure how common it is for skyscrapers to have roof access, they don't have them where I live.

[lacrossedeamon]

11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

If you're that desperate for breaths it would be thousands of times easier to simply have a slave class, who either have to give up their breath as soon as they are old enough to speak.

And that's ignoring the fact that hemalurgy can steal any magic system.

So breath is actually the most fair of any system as you don't have to die to give power away. There's a reason that Scadrial murders people for their power while drabs get enough money to take care of themselves for eight years.

With the advent of capitalism it actually became more economical to move away from direct slavery. And hemalurgy has progressed to where it doesn't cause death anymore.

[Frustration]

12 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

With the advent of capitalism it actually became more economical to move away from direct slavery.

For labor.

12 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

And hemalurgy has progressed to where it doesn't cause death anymore.

It just requires torture, and we don't know if it can steal everything, or only a few.

[kenod]

15 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

And hemalurgy has progressed to where it doesn't cause death anymore.

Keep in mind that it still isn't going to be nice. You're still having a decent chunk of your soul ripped away, which is going to have serious effects on you. It's going to be quite a bit worse than becoming a Drab, most likely, and probably won't be pretty. I imagine stuff like serious health issues, both physical and mental.