Am I the only one who doesn't hate Moash?

[Spearguy]

Both Moash and Vyre are worthy of neither hatred nor pity. Only contempt, he has shown again and again choosing the easy path, the one that is easiest for him no matter how much it will hurt him. That doesn't mean that he will never be better than what he is now.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 10/10/2022 at 9:57 PM, Odiumiumium said:

Spoiler

Even after RoW I still kind of feel bad for Moash. He’s absolutely hatable and I definitely don’t want him to win, but it would be nice if he took the time to maybe sit down and talk about his feelings?? 

 

Sorry to do double hidden text but

Spoiler

this has such huge, "Men will literally side with a god of hatred and murder their closest friends, instead of going to therapy" vibes and it made me laugh so much. Moash could definitely use daily therapy for a long, long while.

 

 

Also, to actually answer the OP. I think Moash is a monster, who is so self-centered that he thinks that his pain is the only pain that counts. So much so, that he was willing to break his best friend's heart and mind before he gave himself over to Odium, because he wanted to get *his* revenge regardless of who else it hurt. He was willing to inflict that pain he received, on his best friend, because his feelings were most important to him.

And he's done far worse since.

That said. The only difference between Moash and Dalinar, Venli, Jasnah, Szeth, etc, is where we are in his story. He could choose redemption. The most important step someone can take is the next one. But thus far, the only steps Moash has taken, are towards selfishness, at all costs. That could change at any point. But, right now, it doesn't seem likely. I would LOVE for him to pull his head out of his butt and stop being such a whining, monstrous loser. It would bring closure for Kaladin, Bridge 4, and the Honorspren. That would be wonderful. I doubt it will happen, but it would be wonderful, and I would be 100% here for it.

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, Spearguy said:

Both Moash and Vyre are worthy of neither hatred nor pity. Only contempt, he has shown again and again choosing the easy path, the one that is easiest for him no matter how much it will hurt him. That doesn't mean that he will never be better than what he is now.

It's not just about him having taken an easy path, although that is a significant part of it.  He's done many terrible things, betraying people who had been nearly family to him, in order to get what he wants. It's that betrayal combined with his refusal to accept responsibility for it (choosing the easy path, as you say) that makes him so terrible and hated.  Kaladin gave him a blade and armor that were priceless, and Moash used them to attack Kaladin, and nearly kill Kaladin, all while trying to get revenge on a king who's culpability in Moash's grandparent's death is questionable.  And then he thinks it's not his fault because he was pushed to do it.

23 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

That said. The only difference between Moash and Dalinar, Venli, Jasnah, Szeth, etc, is where we are in his story. He could choose redemption. The most important step someone can take is the next one. But thus far, the only steps Moash has taken, are towards selfishness, at all costs. That could change at any point. But, right now, it doesn't seem likely. I would LOVE for him to pull his head out of his butt and stop being such a whining, monstrous loser. It would bring closure for Kaladin, Bridge 4, and the Honorspren. That would be wonderful. I doubt it will happen, but it would be wonderful, and I would be 100% here for it.

There are some differences between Moash and Dalinar, Venli, Jasnah, and Szeth.  There are at least some mitigating factors for all of them.  They don't excuse the behavior, but they do change the circumstances.

 Szeth did everything he did as a truthless because he though he was honor bound to do it. He hated himself the whole time, and wanted to stop. I think he's a fool for not thinking he had another choice, but he sincerely believed he had to keep following orders. 

Jasnah's killing of the thieves in Kharbranth is morally questionable. In fact I dislike her character because of it, but the people she killed were criminals in a corrupt city, making the situation a little more nuanced.  And her hiring of assassins is again something I don't agree with, but it's implied that she does it to help keep order in Alethkar, and to protect her family.  Terrible, absolutely, but for sincere reasons.

Venli is a character I couldn't stand at first in RoW. Within the same chapter she laments the loss of her people and is frustrated that Odium didn't make her a queen for bringing the Everstorm.  But the decisions she made weren't completely her doing. Ulim manipulated and misled her about what the storm would do, and likely influenced her emotions as a void spren.  Yes, she did much of what she did was for her own glory, but she started out by wanting to save her mother.  And as Rlain noted, it's impossible to tell how much of her decisions were as a result of Ulim's influence.  But she still accepts her own responsibility, and recognized herself as a coward during the battle of Narak.

As for Dalinar, much of his early brutality was on battlefields while uniting Alethkar under his brother or defending the country. Not exactly a dishonorable reason for fighting. Yes, he wanted to be out fighting, but it's not like he went out murdering people for the fun of it.  And he was influenced by the thrill, similarly to how Venli was influenced by Odium.  So he can't bear full blame for it.  And as for the Rift, even on that day Dalinar recognized that they'd gone too far. Dalinar may have tried to blame Evy for her own death at first, (which was denial at it's finest) but he was haunted by the screams of the children that he burned that day.  He knew he was responsible. 

The terrible things Moash has done, however, are on him. Nobody really pushed him, that we ever actually saw, and no one influenced his emotions. He threw away Bridge Four of his own free will, after claiming that Elhokar killed the only family he'd ever known.  And he was willing to kill Kaladin to get his revenge. He later acknowledged he was a traitor twice over, but then went out of his way to justify his behavior.  Behavior that was entirely for his own selfish reasons.

[Kendelian he/him]

His motives are understandable, but some of the things he did in RoW that i wont mention due to spoilers make me quite unhappy. And also, yeah, his grandparents died, but he could’ve risen above that, similar to what Kaladin did. He’s a well build villain which I love, but I hate the guy.

[Nogo]

I don't hate Moash.  The stormling little cremling pisses me off though!  As stated by so many above... it's his inability to accept responsibility for his actions.  He's a pus wimp.  At the very end of WoR, when he's on the cart with Graves, he has his epiphany moment and realizes that he's been an idiot.  Does he do the right thing and walk up to Kaladin and Dalinar and ask forgiveness?  Of course he doesn't.  He keeps his shards and goes on spiraling down the stupid cremhole that he created.  After that... he just rides the winds of whatever and wherever until he winds up being the coldhearted ruthless assassin Vrye.

With Odium changing vessels... Moash's life could see a significant change.  Remember Graves and his whole plan was part (sideshow part mind you) of the Diagram so Moash is not unknown to Taravangian.  Who knows what the new Odium is up to these days.

I still don't hate him.  I really wouldn't mind if he no longer lived though.  Also, I don't see a real way for redemption.   Does Moash really have the self-actualization to change himself?  Maybe with a whole lot of the above mentioned therapy & therapy groups....

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 4/19/2023 at 0:46 PM, Letryx13 said:

There are some differences between Moash and Dalinar, Venli, Jasnah, and Szeth.  There are at least some mitigating factors for all of them.  They don't excuse the behavior, but they do change the circumstances.

I get that, and I'm not disagreeing with you exactly. But we've had flashbacks for all of those people but none from Moash. In fact, we've almost exclusively heard from Moash's point of view *after* he gave over to Odium. I imagine if we got as many flashbacks for Moash as we've had for, say, Dalinar...and he did start to move away from Odium toward integrity and rightness..it would be quite the journey. That's what I mean when I say the only difference is where we are in his story, because there is a lot to his story that could be filled in and hasn't been. 

If we start hearing about Moash growing up..his experiences..the mantras that he's drilled into himself and shaping his Identity..filling in the gaps before and after Bridge 4...well...I assume that would change a *lot* about how people view Moash. For good or for ill, IDK? At this point, probably not for good. That's all I'm saying.

[Letryx13]

57 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I get that, and I'm not disagreeing with you exactly. But we've had flashbacks for all of those people but none from Moash. In fact, we've almost exclusively heard from Moash's point of view *after* he gave over to Odium. I imagine if we got as many flashbacks for Moash as we've had for, say, Dalinar...and he did start to move away from Odium toward integrity and rightness..it would be quite the journey. That's what I mean when I say the only difference is where we are in his story, because there is a lot to his story that could be filled in and hasn't been. 

The thing about flashbacks is that they give context. They explain events in the past that led up to current ones. We may not have seen the actual events in a flashback, but we've heard about it from two different perspectives, including Moash himself. We know exactly why he left being a caravan worker, that he joined Sadeas' army to try to win a Shard blade, why he tried to kill Elhokar, why he abandoned Kaladin and Bridge 4, and why he eventually succeeded in killing Elhokar.  True, we didn't see or hear any of that through Moash's eyes and ears, but we still got to see it, and we know exactly why it happened.  The only relevant things about his past we don't really know is what exactly his grandparents were charged with, whether or not they were guilty, and what precisely caused their deaths.

57 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

If we start hearing about Moash growing up..his experiences..the mantras that he's drilled into himself and shaping his Identity..filling in the gaps before and after Bridge 4...well...I assume that would change a *lot* about how people view Moash. For good or for ill, IDK? At this point, probably not for good. That's all I'm saying.

But we do know exactly why he threw them away. He wanted revenge. He explicitly claimed that Elhokar murdered his grandparents (highly debatable) calling them the only family he ever had. If family meant so much to him, then he's a hypocrite, considering Bridge 4 have consistently referred to each other as family.  I don't remember if Moash himself ever referred to them that way, but he sure seemed to consider Bridge 4 to be something special, considering how he twice accused Kaladin of turning on a member of Bridge 4 when Kaladin  confronted him.  He acted as if their group were something sacred, and then threw them away when it suited him.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Letryx13

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

Ah, I'm sorry @Letryx13, I realize that I wrote all of that while excluding a fundamental way that I read SA, after Shallan, that is.

I don't believe Moash. I don't think he's a reliable witness. I don't think he's got anywhere near the sort of mental health issues that Shallan does, but I have always assumed that Moash never told the entire story. I believe Dalinar, but his version of events was vague, at best. I have always assumed there is more to Moash, because Moash is a liar. To himself and to everyone else.

I do think, as I've said several times in the thread and I think you are as well, that Moash is a selfish coward. He most certainly has made terrible choices, over and over and over again. In general, I don't like him at all. My foundational point remains, however. Moash is not beyond redemption. It's highly unlikely that any redemption will happen. But, I won't write off anyone in the Cosmere until they are dead..gone..and don't speak from the grave.

[Nogo]

7 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

 But we've had flashbacks for all of those people but none from Moash. In fact, we've almost exclusively heard from Moash's point of view *after* he gave over to Odium. I imagine if we got as many flashbacks for Moash as we've had for, say, Dalinar...and he did start to move away from Odium toward integrity and rightness..it would be quite the journey. That's what I mean when I say the only difference is where we are in his story, because there is a lot to his story that could be filled in and hasn't been. 

If we start hearing about Moash growing up..his experiences..the mantras that he's drilled into himself and shaping his Identity..filling in the gaps before and after Bridge 4...well...I assume that would change a *lot* about how people view Moash. For good or for ill, IDK? At this point, probably not for good. That's all I'm saying.

I'm not so sure I agree with the backstory giving validity to people's present actions.  Even with Kaladin's backstory... I think his perspective on the lighteyes is crem.  Especially as he generalizes them all together.  His backstory gives the reason why, but he also was always prone to play the victim.   The whole Tien situation shows it.  Kaladin assumed that Tien was sent untrained to the front line, but really he went voluntarily to help his comrades.  Kaladin was unable to celebrate Tien's glory and valor and honor.  He instead blamed someone else (which eventually became blaming the whole ruling class).  Dalinar's backstory does NOTHING to make you think he's a better person today.  It's completely the opposite.  However, as I am rereading OB right now, his first fight at the Rift (33 years ago, I believe) stung him deeply and shamed him.  I believe it was the "tears in the boys eyes."  

Now Szeth is.... ok I give a weird pass to him.  That dude... that dude.   Enough said.

And Shallan, she had a pretty messed up childhood, but what are we giving her a pass for??  She's not messed up, well, not messed up like Moash.  Shallan TAKES responsibility for her actions and freely admits to her faults.  

I'm not sure you can make any backstory for Moash that would make me go "oh, Ok, that's cool.  He's pretty much a sociopath but that's alright because blah blah blah happened to him such and such a time."   Though, I would like to know if he is naturally a sociopath or if he was turned that way.  I kinda think we will never know.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

22 hours ago, Nogo said:

I'm not sure you can make any backstory for Moash that would make me go "oh, Ok, that's cool.  He's pretty much a sociopath but that's alright because blah blah blah happened to him such and such a time."   Though, I would like to know if he is naturally a sociopath or if he was turned that way.  I kinda think we will never know.

Kaladin has, presumably, always had a connection to Honor..or Syl..or something. He has always displayed certain traits that would take him to the leadership of the Windrunners. But as a child, grown into a man, he was never honest with himself about who he saw himself as, and what he wanted to be, and how he wanted to be it. That's not surprising to me, as making those decisions as a child is beyond difficult. It's made worse with clinical depression. 

Szeth did his best to speak the truth. To warn his people of destruction that was coming. He believed it with his whole being, and did all that he could to save everyone and everything that he loved from that destruction. He did it in the best of faith, telling the leaders he trusted, and he was told that he was a betrayer. That he knew that he was lying, and that he was evil for doing so. I recognize that Szeth says that he could have stopped the killing at any point, because he was never Truthless, because he could have stuck to his belief(s)..and we still have no idea of the details of what warning he had or why..but it seems like the people in authority, who Szeth had trusted his entire life, all told him he was wrong. I don't know about you, but I would assume I must have made the worst mistake of my life as Szeth did. And by the time he ran into a Radiant..he was already very mentally unstable from all of the trauma. 

Shallan admits to her wrongs, when she is physically able to see/remember them. Her mind is/was broken with such intensity as very few in the Cosmere have been. She is working through that, but she is not always herself.

Dalinar was heavily influenced by the Unmade and Odium claims he was always there, pushing him to worse and worse passions.

Venli, when we hear in her mind, would try to remember more honorable thoughts..and her mind would be fuzzed, confused, and redirected to what Odium wanted.

All of these people were either directly influenced by an evil shard, and/or their mind and soul was fractured by trauma in drastic ways. That said, there is a whole world that could be hiding in Moash's backstory. Does he have any connection(s) to Odium or the Unmade that we don't know about? Has their been any Cosmere-aware agents working in his life? Is there something unique about Moash (Like there are with all of the primary Radiants that we've seen) that makes him particularly susceptible to Odium?

I don't know? But there could be. And BS has shown over and over and over again, that with relatively little information revealed, one's entire view of a person, place, or event can shift wildly.

If you found out that there had been some direct influence on Moash his entire life (or something equally as formative), I would think you're view would change. It probably wouldn't be "Oh, Ok, that's cool" like you said...but it most certainly could shift everything you know about him as a character, and why he is the way he is. Would it not? 

Edited April 27, 2023 by JohnnyKaizen
correcting misspelling

[Nogo]

1 hour ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

If you found out that there had been some direct influence on Moash his entire life (or something equally as formative), I would think you're view would change. It probably wouldn't be "Oh, Ok, that's cool" like you said...but it most certainly could shift everything you know about him as a character, and why he is the way he is. Would it not? 

I'm open to anything.  That'd be one hell of a killer backstory though... :-)

[Letryx13]

On 4/26/2023 at 6:43 PM, Nogo said:

I'm not so sure I agree with the backstory giving validity to people's present actions.  Even with Kaladin's backstory... I think his perspective on the lighteyes is crem.  Especially as he generalizes them all together.  His backstory gives the reason why, but he also was always prone to play the victim.   The whole Tien situation shows it.  Kaladin assumed that Tien was sent untrained to the front line, but really he went voluntarily to help his comrades.  Kaladin was unable to celebrate Tien's glory and valor and honor.  He instead blamed someone else (which eventually became blaming the whole ruling class).  Dalinar's backstory does NOTHING to make you think he's a better person today.  It's completely the opposite.  However, as I am rereading OB right now, his first fight at the Rift (33 years ago, I believe) stung him deeply and shamed him.  I believe it was the "tears in the boys eyes."  

I think that might be a little harsh on Kaladin.  I agree completely that he was overly harsh on light eyes because of what happened with Roshone, Laurel, and everthing in Hearthstone, believing their behavior proved all light eyes were bad.  But after Tien died, that sergeant said something to the effect of finding a use for soldiers that couldn't fight. It's understandable that Kaladin assumed Tien was used as a sacrifice.  

I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying about Dalinar's past.  I always thought it was meant to show how he'd changed from the bloodthirsty monster he had been when he was younger into the (much better) person he is now.

[Nogo]

9 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying about Dalinar's past.  I always thought it was meant to show how he'd changed from the bloodthirsty monster he had been when he was younger into the (much better) person he is now.

Truth.  I was saying that Dalinar's past behavior does not give him an excuse for the way he behaves today.  Dalinar's backstory really doesn't apply to the Moash discussion at all as far as I can tell.  We were discussing things in Moash's past that could possibly explain / justify his craptastic actions.

9 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I think that might be a little harsh on Kaladin. 

I usually am.  I really like Kaladin.  But his faults & PTSD very much mirror my own and my own personal struggles and harshness with myself seep through pretty solid which makes me really judgmental of him because I fight it every day with myself.  Dunno if that makes sense to you, but it does somewhere up in my noggin. 

Edited April 28, 2023 by Nogo