medallions theory

[cometaryorbit]

Need to post my medallion theory before TLM disproves it...

Unkeyed metalminds seem simple enough, though they'd generally need Hemalurgy to make since you need both f-Aluminum and another Feruchemical power - store Identity down to zero then store something else, it's unkeyed.

But what's the extra step to make full-on unsealed metalminds/medallions that anyone can use?

And what are excuses?

Well, "excise" means "cut out" - which is what Hemalurgy does, cut out a bit of spiritweb and transplant it to someone else.

So the excisors are probably Hemalurgic spikes - probably granting f-Nicrosil, a-Nicrosil, and f-Aluminum.

The first person (say a Brass Ferring) takes the spikes, stores Brass Feruchemy into a nicrosilmind, and compounds Nicrosil to create "multiple copies" of the power. But one spiritweb probably can't really hold multiple copies of the same power, so they immediately store them into nicrosilminds (storing Identity in the process). These nicrosilminds become the first ring of the medallion.

They then fill unkeyed brassminds which become the second ring.

Then they pass the spikes and the nicrosilminds to someone else (say an Iron Ferring) who stores Iron Feruchemy in a separate nicrosilmind, eats it, compounds Nicrosil to create multiple copies of that power, and stores those copies in the first-ring nicrosilminds.

Then the Iron Ferring fills unkeyed ironminds which become the third ring of the medallions.

--

As for why anyone who's not a nicrosil ferring can use the medallions: I think they must "blank" or disConnect the Investiture somehow, kind of like how Allik describes "blank Connection" as reaching out to connect to something - the metalmind, not the person, is "doing the work" here. I wish I knew how they make "blank" Connection...

Perhaps they need a f-Duralumin spike as well, and if you store Investiture at super-low Connection it becomes unsealed?

[Isilel]

But then, why are  medallions limited to having max 3 powers? I used to think that this meant a Twinborn + 3 spikes,  because beyond that disapproving Harmony could interfere with a person. Which would explain rarity of the max ones. However, it doesn't quite work out since A-Nicrosil, F-Nicrosil and A-Aluminum only leave room for 2 additional powers.

But if spikes can be moved around between different Metalborn, why are there any limitations to the number of powers in a single medallion beyond just availability of corresponding Mistings and Ferrings? For that matter, why do different medallions interfere with each other? I suspect that Connection must be involved somehow, not just blanking of Identity. 

[Fullborn IRL]

Who says nicrosil stores the magic systems and not just pure investiture?

[cometaryorbit]

On 10/14/2022 at 10:28 AM, Isilel said:

But then, why are  medallions limited to having max 3 powers? I used to think that this meant a Twinborn + 3 spikes,  because beyond that disapproving Harmony could interfere with a person. Which would explain rarity of the max ones. However, it doesn't quite work out since A-Nicrosil, F-Nicrosil and A-Aluminum only leave room for 2 additional powers.

But if spikes can be moved around between different Metalborn, why are there any limitations to the number of powers in a single medallion beyond just availability of corresponding Mistings and Ferrings? For that matter, why do different medallions interfere with each other? I suspect that Connection must be involved somehow, not just blanking of Identity. 

I had figured the spikes have bits of the original Identity attached to the power, and those bits add up so it gets progressively harder to add more powers

[+robardin he/him]

An excellent line of reasoning in the OP!

We don't have a lot of information on the technology to create the medallions, only what Allik casually lets drop in BoM:

• Wearing multiple medallions "interfere with each other", in a way we haven't seen first-hand (nobody's put on two medallions).
  • Does that mean none of the powers work? That you get some weird blend of powers? Is there a hierarchy (A > F, Steel > Iron, etc.)?
  • But using all powers in the Bands has no problem! Because it's basically one big medallion!
• Medallions with two powers/attributes in them are difficult for the Malwish to make.
• Medallions with three powers, possible but very rare (though Allik, a young and low-ranking officer, has seen them)...
• But, "every attempt has failed" in the creation of medallions with 4+ powers.
  • Which means it's not a physical limitation but one from the magical mechanics
    • i.e., it's not "well, there are only three pointy spikes on an Excisor, whaddyagonnado?"
• They have to "pass around" the medallions to add powers during their creation
  • Someone with a Metalborn power "[adds theirs] to the medallion, then passing it to another to have it added to"
• Is this limit of three "pass-around" powers related, then, to the "three boons" limit on hemalurgy in Era 2?
  • Where being "subject to Harmony's interference", as Edwarn put it in BoM, might equate to a hard ban?
• Creating medallions with multiple powers means this "stacking" effect has a limit/cost, despite the removal of Identity
  • "if you had all the powers", you wouldn't need to pass the medallion on, and could make something like the Bands.
  • Perhaps that just means "if you didn't need to use the Excisors" to make a medallion in the first place?

To sum up:

• Medallions, the product of Excisor technology, have a limit in using one medallion at a time (but can access all powers in the medallion).
• Excisor technology has some kind of threshold limit at 3 powers in medallion creation.
  • This limitation is related to "passing it to another person".
  • A Fullborn is needed to create the Bands.
  • Shouldn't a Twinborn like Wax or Wayne be really valuable, then?

In fact, we've only seem Feruchemical powers stored in the medallions, though the Bands could also store Investiture granting Allomancy (which still requires ingesting metals to burn to make use of).

However, Allik confirmed with "Yes, any" when Wax asked if "with one of these [Excisors], one can create a medallion for any Allomantic or Feruchemical ability?" And of course, the Bands contain metalminds granting all the Allomantic powers.

Where are the medallions for Allomancy? Surely they exist? Otherwise, how are they going to charge those Steelpushing primer cubes to start the ettmetal driven engines on the airships?

Edited October 21, 2022 by robardin

[Isilel]

@robardin, a good summary, but IMHO there are reasons to suspect that the real maximum limit on one medallion if no Fullborn, Mistborn or Full Feruchemists are involved in it's production would be 4 powers. Let's not forget that the Metalborn are much rarer in the South, which would mean that Twinborn would be vanishingly rare and 2 of them probably haven't been alive at the same time during the last 3 centuries. And number 4 would fit better with 16 allomantic metals.

In other words, I think that the limit is not in the stacking of powers, but in the number of people involved. Which for 2-power medallions would probably be either 2 or 3 if hemalurgy is part of the process, depending on how Connection is involved in making them. 

Also, all medallions that were on Allik's ship had 2 powers, IIRC - F-Brass and F-Iron for heat and weight or F-Duralumin and F-Iron for translation and weight. So, it doesn't seem that combining 2 powers is difficult for modern Malwish, on tha contrary, it appears  to be the norm. 

[+robardin he/him]

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

@robardin, a good summary, but IMHO there are reasons to suspect that the real maximum limit on one medallion if no Fullborn, Mistborn or Full Feruchemists are involved in it's production would be 4 powers. Let's not forget that the Metalborn are much rarer in the South, which would mean that Twinborn would be vanishingly rare and 2 of them probably haven't been alive at the same time during the last 3 centuries. And number 4 would fit better with 16 allomantic metals.

In other words, I think that the limit is not in the stacking of powers, but in the number of people involved. Which for 2-power medallions would probably be either 2 or 3 if hemalurgy is part of the process, depending on how Connection is involved in making them. 

Also, all medallions that were on Allik's ship had 2 powers, IIRC - F-Brass and F-Iron for heat and weight or F-Duralumin and F-Iron for translation and weight. So, it doesn't seem that combining 2 powers is difficult for modern Malwish, on tha contrary, it appears  to be the norm. 

But why would the number of people involved be a limiting factor? I called it a "stacking" factor because of the apparent need to pass it on, with "each person adding their power", and a factor that having "all powers in one person" would get around.

There isn't a mechanical (physical) cap on "max of four powers in a medallion, full stop", because the Bands of Mourning were essentially exactly that: a "maximum medallion" that only a Fullborn could produce.

So it would be reasonable to assume the Bands were NOT made the same way as the medallions are; that whatever the "Excisors" are and how they work, they somehow limit the collection of powers (so far) to three, but that whatever The Sovereign did to create the Bands was done differently.

Which brings us back to the idea that the Excisors are hemalurgic in nature (doesn't it sound like it's "excising", or "pulling out", the power from one person to another?), which a Fullborn wouldn't need at all to have access to multiple powers, and that "we can't do more than three powers in medallion construction with them" sounds a lot like the "limited to three boons" thing.

[Fullborn IRL]

I think all Feruchemical attributes are keyed to a person just like age as no matter how much TLR compound Youth his Spirit Web still 'knew' what his true age was and he got worse at Atium Feruchemy over time. I think any Ferring's investiture is still intrinsically his or her own no matter where it's put or how so unless a Feruchemist is a Full Feruchemist multiple Feruchemical powers in one will prove problematic.

[cometaryorbit]

On 10/21/2022 at 9:11 AM, robardin said:

But why would the number of people involved be a limiting factor?

Residual bits of Identity interfering, maybe? If spikes are involved, maybe Identity blanking with Feruchemical aluminum isn't 100% perfect since the spike's Identity isn't completely synced with the spike bearer's? Or maybe Identity blanking just isn't quite 100% in the first place?

-

I am not sure the Bands are exactly the same thing as a medallion made by someone who happens to have all the powers. They might be something slightly different. The Bands' Investiture stores start to run out, whereas medallions' nicrosil rings apparently don't - they're discrete like copperminds.

The Bands' Allomancy might involve whatever non-understood mechanism gives "reverse compounding" - their Allomantic strength seems impossibly high. Even TLR didn't leak mist, though Vin did while burning the mists just before Ascending (it's specifically mentioned that mist comes off her skin before getting drawn back into the vortex feeding into her).

Edited October 23, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[+Bzhydack he/him]

I had very similar thoughts some time ago!

18 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Residual bits of Identity interfering, maybe? If spikes are involved, maybe Identity blanking with Feruchemical aluminum isn't 100% perfect since the spike's Identity isn't completely synced with the spike bearer's? Or maybe Identity blanking just isn't quite 100% in the first place?

Probably is not, because imagine person without any identity. It would not know who he/she is, would have basicly total amnesia, I think. The same is why you cant store 100% of Health in goldmind, if you do this, you simply die. Or you cant store 100% strengh, the same reason. This is not magical limitation, but more physical limitation of human body or mind.

On 20.10.2022 at 3:32 PM, robardin said:

• Wearing multiple medallions "interfere with each other", in a way we haven't seen first-hand (nobody's put on two medallions).
  • Does that mean none of the powers work? That you get some weird blend of powers? Is there a hierarchy (A > F, Steel > Iron, etc.)?
  • But using all powers in the Bands has no problem! Because it's basically one big medallion!
• Medallions with two powers/attributes in them are difficult for the Malwish to make.
• Medallions with three powers, possible but very rare (though Allik, a young and low-ranking officer, has seen them)...
• But, "every attempt has failed" in the creation of medallions with 4+ powers.
  • Which means it's not a physical limitation but one from the magical mechanics
    • i.e., it's not "well, there are only three pointy spikes on an Excisor, whaddyagonnado?"
• They have to "pass around" the medallions to add powers during their creation
  • Someone with a Metalborn power "[adds theirs] to the medallion, then passing it to another to have it added to"
• Is this limit of three "pass-around" powers related, then, to the "three boons" limit on hemalurgy in Era 2?
  • Where being "subject to Harmony's interference", as Edwarn put it in BoM, might equate to a hard ban?
• Creating medallions with multiple powers means this "stacking" effect has a limit/cost, despite the removal of Identity
  • "if you had all the powers", you wouldn't need to pass the medallion on, and could make something like the Bands.
  • Perhaps that just means "if you didn't need to use the Excisors" to make a medallion in the first place?

Yeah, probably with Twinborn you can bypass three powers limitation, because both Twinborn powers would be counting as one power set from Identity perspective. So limiting number would be six powers for 3 Twinborn. And now just wait for Mistborn then...

On 20.10.2022 at 3:32 PM, robardin said:

However, Allik confirmed with "Yes, any" when Wax asked if "with one of these [Excisors], one can create a medallion for any Allomantic or Feruchemical ability?" And of course, the Bands contain metalminds granting all the Allomantic powers.

Where are the medallions for Allomancy? Surely they exist? Otherwise, how are they going to charge those Steelpushing primer cubes to start the ettmetal driven engines on the airships?

Or maybe Southerners have other technology for transfering invested charge between cubes, and they simply have storages of Allomantic Steel charge, because Allomancers are so rare that is just one per generation or something, and there is no Coinshot between them currently.

Or maybe indeed they need something more to give Allomancy. Connection to Harmony maybe?

[IlstrawberrySeed]

The thing is, you don't need a full born to make to the bands. First off, necrosil fuerochemistry can increase your Allomantic powers (or fuerochemical powers in my theory). Additionally, normally spikes are limited to 1 power per spike, but there are a few that might not, as well as some workarounds.

First, lerasium is (according to the coppermind) steals all Allomantic and fuerochemical abilities, so a single Mistborn or full fuerochemist getting a lerasiam spike from the other can take all of the necessary power to make a 1 spike full born using Hemalurgy, with only 2 identities. If Kelsier is the southern scadrians "lord ruler," then this is could be.

Secondly, atrium can steal any ability. Presumably, among the very large repituare of metals, there is one that can steel Allomantic potential, such that a full furochemist could accept spikes and then snap as a Mistborn. Perhaps atrium can even steal an ability that no other metal can.

Third, a person who has gold compounding can give a Hemalurgic spike, survive with no soul damage, for it to happen again. If this is a medallion or a Hemalurgic spike, then a full repituare of abilities can be taken from a single person. However, gold isn't required, because the coppermind says that Hemalurgy doesn't need to kill, it just isn't known widely, nor do we know the side effects, presumably allowing multiple powers to be taken without gold.

However, Necrosil filling Removes or Reduces your ability to use fuerochemistry, and a single full-fuerochemist or single spike ferring could make an unkeyed necrosilmind that could be tapped, in order to fill a necrosilmind keyed to you with the ability to use necrosilminds and aluminum minds, as well as filling your ability to use your metalminds. Then, you tap the necrosilmind to identity drop, and fill an unkeyed metal mind with your stored powers. Then the first unkeys refills the necrosis ability and aluminum ability, and then it continues on.

[cometaryorbit]

2 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

First, lerasium is (according to the coppermind) steals all Allomantic and fuerochemical abilities

No, lerasium steals "all abilities" but these are things like basic strength, senses, intelligence/memory, mental fortitude - the abilities used in Kandra Blessings.

Atium steals "any power" - "powers" are the Allomantic/Feruchemical powers (as well as off-world things like Sand Mastery).

As far as we know, there's no way to grant multiple Allo/Feru powers with one spike. (And the HoA epigraphs imply Ruin couldn't do it, talking about how killing a Mistborn for one power was usually a waste.)

I don't think that could work anyway, since the Hemalurgy table shows bind points divided by metal quadrant. All powers wouldn't fit at any one point.

I do agree you probably don't need a Fullborn to make the Bands though. Even if you're limited to 3 people involved*, one Mistborn and one Full Feruchemist could do it. There were probably still Full Feruchemists in the post-Catacendre generation (actually, though Sazed says in HoA he's likely the last, it seems entirely possible there were Full Feruchemists too young to have discovered their powers and who thus didn't get found and killed by the Inquisitors).

*and I am not sure the Bands are really the same 'technology' as medallions - their Investiture stores run out, whereas medallions don't).

[Fullborn IRL]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

*and I am not sure the Bands are really the same 'technology' as medallions - their Investiture stores run out, whereas medallions don't).

I've been seeing this said a lot. What indication do we have that the medallions don't run out? We haven't seen anyone explicitly running out of the ability to tap a medallion, and it hasn't been stated whether or not that happens.

[cometaryorbit]

16 hours ago, Fullborn IRL said:

I've been seeing this said a lot. What indication do we have that the medallions don't run out? We haven't seen anyone explicitly running out of the ability to tap a medallion, and it hasn't been stated whether or not that happens.

There's a WoB that it's a discrete trait like memories, unlike other Feruchemical attributes.

The Bands, though... Wax says their Investiture stores are "running low". A discrete thing can't run low, it's either there or not.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Where is that WoB? The coppermind says that filling a necrosilmind has a speed, and that it temporarily makes one a feruchemist if storing feruchemical abilities. Memories are temporary due to a "flaw" in us, and those with photographic memories don't have copper minded memories fade when retrieved. So, if it is a discrete thing that fades, either the store is permanent and you loose the ability to use F-necrosil, or you produce it. And if you produce it, it can't be discrete.

[cometaryorbit]

On 10/27/2022 at 5:49 PM, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Where is that WoB?

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

 

Memories are stored and retrieved as discrete objects, not as a pool of power that can be divided up however you want like other Feruchemical attributes. Medallions work the same way.

But the Bands *don't*.

We don't know which way the default (non-unsealed) use of f-Nicrosil would work.

[Isilel]

On 27.10.2022 at 4:35 PM, cometaryorbit said:

The Bands, though... Wax says their Investiture stores are "running low". A discrete thing can't run low, it's either there or not.

The memories degrade with each retrieval, though, so the same may be the case with Nicrosil Feruchemy.

Anyway, I think that the excisors aren't hemalurgic spikes, but universal metalminds, in which anyone can store and which anyone can tap. Probably made from an atium-lerasium alloy or a stable alloy of both with ettmetal. It was strongly implied that excisors weren't something that the SoScads could replicate, while I am pretty  certain that they routinely use hemalurgy in the ways outlined in Spook's book. Given that Spook's ideas there had to come from Kelsier. And that Metal powers are much more scarce in the South, so they can't afford to lose them to Metalborn dying, or leave the likelyhood that enough people with powers essential for making medallions would be born in each generation, to chance. Not to mention that you really need twin metal compounding to produce them in sufficient quantity.

I also think that hemalurgy was used to make it possible for anyone to use the medallions. WoBs say that  burning a hemalurgic spike that is outside one's body is like trying to burn somebody else's metalmind - i.e. an allomancer would sense the charge, but couldn't access it. But what about burning a spike that is in one's body, in a correct bind-point? I think I saw somewhere that it would be exceedingly painful and would knock a person out - but I couldn't find the relevant WoB just now. However, Kelsier could get around it by flaring pewter or even using a Duralumin push while burning both the spike and pewter. So, I think that he had an F-Nicrosil spike put into his body and burned it while storing his Identity in aluminum and manipulating Connection in such a way that the charge reacts as if it is a correctly inserted spike, when it just touches somebody's skin, and stored the result in Nicrosil, using his native Nicrosil Feruchemic ability as a Fullborn. Now, the good thing is that it only needs to be done once and then a stock can be indefinitely maintained and amplified either by somebody having both Nicrosil powers and F-Aluminum via spikes or by using universal metalminds*. Like cheese cultures are/were IRL.

Then individual powers are amplified via unkeyed twin metal compounding and stored in Nicrosil, etc. Ditto heat/connection/memory in the respective metals Yes, I know that people seemingly don't tap powers separately when using medallions, but immediately access attribute storages. IMHO we don't know enough to explain it. It also seems likely that there are nuances to storing individual powers in Nicrosil and possibly also their compounding, so that each requires a somewhat different method. Which is why we saw medallions for some powers, but not others.

*Here is how I think that it could work with universal metalminds - an Aluminum Ferring stores his ability while storing Identity. Then a Nicrosil Ferring does the same. Then a Nicrosil Misting burns the hemalurgically charged stock originally provided by Kelsier  while storing Identity and tapping  F-Nicrosil, stores it in a Nicrosil metalmind and burns it. Rinse, repeat.

You can short-cut a lot of it if everybody has 3 spikes, but to make a medallion with 2 powers you'd still need to use universal metalminds a couple of times for transfer between the Metalborn involved.