Thought experiment on Tri-Shardic Worlds

[LiftisaDragon]

At some point in the future cosmere, it seems likely Roshar and Scadrial will come into either direct conflict, or at least the cosmere equivalent of the Cold War. 

It’s my belief that, in order to avoid bestowing overt advantages to either side, Brandon will “give” each of these planets 3 shards. 

Roshar: Odium, Cultivation, Honor

Scadrial: Autonomy, Ruin, Preservation
 

I’ve been theorizing as to what the names/intents of these tri-shardic entities could be. 
 

My thoughts are below… let me know what you think.

I could see Odium and Cultivation forming something along the lines of Vendetta or Enmity (Count of Monte Cristo-esq). Maybe the light is something like RageLight or Strifelight…. Brandon definitely prefers the less interpretive names for the lights. 
 

Perhaps all 3 merge into something like Fervor or Ardor…. Trying to find words that capture strong passion growing from deep seated roots, with the positive tint of honor. In my mind Fevor or Zeal would represent a lessened honor, whereas Ardor or perhaps Vehemence is a lessened Odium.
 

On Scadrial, I could see the 3 (Ruin, Preservation, Autonomy) merging into something like Hegemony or Empire. This one is tough… you want to capture the destructive aspects of ruin, the almost crystallized preservation, but at the same time independence and self sufficiency. 

[Quantus he/him]

Sel Blasts them with a giant arcane Dor-Cannon, blowing up Alder- I mean, Scadrial and Roshar.  Endowment Laughs from Nalthis. 

[Yumiya]

46 minutes ago, LiftisaDragon said:

On Scadrial, I could see the 3 (Ruin, Preservation, Autonomy) merging into something like Hegemony or Empire.

I find this unlikely. Ruin and Preservation have already merged to make Harmony. Autonomy wants to stay as just Autonomy and would probably actively avoid a situation where it would merge with another shard. Likewise, Odium would avoid merging. He doesn't NEED to in order to become more powerful, infact being merged can greatly hamper the new shard as we see with Harmony. Plus Honor is already splintered, so he would have to be reformed before he could be merged.  Also, dual shards like Harmony come about when multiple shards are in the same place and don't have a Vessel. A new Vessel then picks up both shards. So for this to happen for a tri-shardic enity (other than one that includes Harmony) would require three vessels to die in close proximity to each other and there be a new vessel will to pick up and merge three potential conflicting shards. 

[Returned he/him]

I'm not convinced of the tri-Shardic amalgamation idea. Shards generally don't want to merge with one another (at least the ones we've seen so far), and change in the process if they do, so I think that combinations aren't going to be quite so lackadaisical or balanced as this. Especially Autonomy-- they're not likely to combine well with others, even if forced into it. Also, the Shards themselves are already effectively infinite, so it's not obvious to me that we'll see conflicts being decided by one Vessel holding more than one versus a single Shard (ask Dominion and Devotion!). The Shards' agents seem (to me) like more important figures in prosecuting conflicts. I wouldn't say that Wax is more significant than Vin, for example, just because he's backed by two Shards rather than one. But they both operate where the Shards themselves can't or prefer not to.

I do like this line of thinking, though. I think that something we'll see more of is demi-Shardic beings, like the Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and Sibling, which are fonts of magical power but have their own purposes and constraints while not being bound by quite the same rules as the Shards themselves. But we don't know very much about these entities or how they might be formed, so I can't guess how many we might see, what they might do, or how they might generally behave.

[Mr. Misting he/him]

Yeah I don't think we are going to have beings who will hold more than two shards. Having that many intents would make it hard to take actions that wouldn't contradict something. . Also I think Autonomy might be working with Odium, and if not Scadrial is definity not friends with Autonomy. Trell who is almost assuredly her avatar has been messing with Harmony and Scadrians and making them generally mad at Autonomy. Also I think Cultivation will not go along with Odium's crazy world domination plans. 

So if I was to make a lineup I could see Harmony, Wit and Cultivation vs. Odium mixed with Refused Honor (War maybe?) and Autonomy

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

On 9/12/2022 at 4:33 PM, LiftisaDragon said:

At some point in the future cosmere, it seems likely Roshar and Scadrial will come into either direct conflict, or at least the cosmere equivalent of the Cold War. 

It’s my belief that, in order to avoid bestowing overt advantages to either side, Brandon will “give” each of these planets 3 shards. 

Roshar: Odium, Cultivation, Honor

Scadrial: Autonomy, Ruin, Preservation

Given how Mistborn Era one ended, I would be very surprised to see someone else merge Shards. I suspect that Cultivation will be killed and Shattered, and Odium will make war against Scadrial. Given that Harmony is effectively impotent but also, for all intents and purposes indestructible, the battles would all likely be fought by proxies.

On 9/12/2022 at 4:33 PM, LiftisaDragon said:

I could see Odium and Cultivation forming something along the lines of Vendetta or Enmity (Count of Monte Cristo-esq). Maybe the light is something like RageLight or Strifelight…. Brandon definitely prefers the less interpretive names for the lights. 

 

Perhaps all 3 merge into something like Fervor or Ardor…. Trying to find words that capture strong passion growing from deep seated roots, with the positive tint of honor. In my mind Fevor or Zeal would represent a lessened honor, whereas Ardor or perhaps Vehemence is a lessened Odium.
 

On Scadrial, I could see the 3 (Ruin, Preservation, Autonomy) merging into something like Hegemony or Empire. This one is tough… you want to capture the destructive aspects of ruin, the almost crystallized preservation, but at the same time independence and self sufficiency. 

I think Odium and Cultivation would form Genocide. Selective pruning based on hate seems pretty straight forward. Adding Honor to the mix would probably Make it into something similar to Crusade/Jihad but more to the tune of the war in Dune where tens of billions were killed in the name of the Kwizatz Haderach.

Adding Autonomy to Harmony would probably tilt it towards Autonomy because Ruin and Preservation are already balancing each other out. They are effectively nullifying each other which means most of the intent would probably be Autonomy. Hegemony and Empire are basically the antithesis of Autonomy. They would be more appropriately applied to Dominion.

[bmcclure7]

On 9/12/2022 at 3:33 PM, LiftisaDragon said:

At some point in the future cosmere, it seems likely Roshar and Scadrial will come into either direct conflict, or at least the cosmere equivalent of the Cold War. 

It’s my belief that, in order to avoid bestowing overt advantages to either side, Brandon will “give” each of these planets 3 shards. 

Roshar: Odium, Cultivation, Honor

Scadrial: Autonomy, Ruin, Preservation
 

I’ve been theorizing as to what the names/intents of these tri-shardic entities could be. 
 

My thoughts are below… let me know what you think.

I could see Odium and Cultivation forming something along the lines of Vendetta or Enmity (Count of Monte Cristo-esq). Maybe the light is something like RageLight or Strifelight…. Brandon definitely prefers the less interpretive names for the lights. 
 

Perhaps all 3 merge into something like Fervor or Ardor…. Trying to find words that capture strong passion growing from deep seated roots, with the positive tint of honor. In my mind Fevor or Zeal would represent a lessened honor, whereas Ardor or perhaps Vehemence is a lessened Odium.
 

On Scadrial, I could see the 3 (Ruin, Preservation, Autonomy) merging into something like Hegemony or Empire. This one is tough… you want to capture the destructive aspects of ruin, the almost crystallized preservation, but at the same time independence and self sufficiency. 

Odium and cultivation is freedom according to RoW

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

13 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Odium and cultivation is freedom according to RoW

I must have missed that in the book. Could you point me to where that is stated?

[Returned he/him]

Even if there is a suggestion in RoW to the effect of "Odium + Cultivation = Freedom" (I don't recall it, but that doesn't mean it isn't there) we've got WoBs that flatly state that there isn't necessarily just one single outcome to a combination of a pair of Shards. For example, Preservation + Ruin = Harmony the way Sazed happened to combine them, but could just as easily have produced Discord instead.

[EmulatonStromenkiin he/him]

Discord probably would have destroyed itself, though. 

[bmcclure7]

12 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I must have missed that in the book. Could you point me to where that is stated?

 It's when nirvani is testing rthyms.  See describes honor + cultivation as science and cultivation +Odium as freedom.  

[HSuperLee]

17 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 It's when nirvani is testing rthyms.  See describes honor + cultivation as science and cultivation +Odium as freedom.  

As much as I'm inclined to agree with this because I love the idea of science coming unexpectedly from Cultivation and Honor, it really is worth noting that the perceptions of one person listening to the rhythms isn't going to be definitive on Shardic combinations. Each Shard's intent is so much more than a single word. I mean, imagine trying to describe a sunset with a single word. Most people will probably default to "beauty", but you'll also get lots of "wonder", or even "dream". Then realize that each Shard is much more complex than a single sunset. The words we use to describe the Shards barely scratch the surface of what they actually are. The result is that we'd really need more than just Navani to go off of. Though I do think that its reasonable to say that freedom would be an aspect of Cultivation and Odium mixing. Though I'm not willing to say it would be the whole or even dominant aspect of said merging.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, HSuperLee said:

As much as I'm inclined to agree with this because I love the idea of science coming unexpectedly from Cultivation and Honor, it really is worth noting that the perceptions of one person listening to the rhythms isn't going to be definitive on Shardic combinations. Each Shard's intent is so much more than a single word. I mean, imagine trying to describe a sunset with a single word. Most people will probably default to "beauty", but you'll also get lots of "wonder", or even "dream". Then realize that each Shard is much more complex than a single sunset. The words we use to describe the Shards barely scratch the surface of what they actually are. The result is that we'd really need more than just Navani to go off of. Though I do think that its reasonable to say that freedom would be an aspect of Cultivation and Odium mixing. Though I'm not willing to say it would be the whole or even dominant aspect of said merging.

While it might be more then freedom and science,  I doubt Brandon is try to deceive us so they must be related some how. 

[cometaryorbit]

I don't think it's deceptive, but I think it's influenced by the person involved. I think Navani's mindset is part of why she got "science" rather than say "civilization" from Cultivation + Honor, in the same way that Harmony isn't the only possible combination of Ruin + Preservation.

[bmcclure7]

13 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think it's deceptive, but I think it's influenced by the person involved. I think Navani's mindset is part of why she got "science" rather than say "civilization" from Cultivation + Honor, in the same way that Harmony isn't the only possible combination of Ruin + Preservation.

 Exactly though, Even if it's not exactly freedom it has to be something similar,  Or along a similar theme. Like science and civilization. That is to say growth though order.  freedom is then perhaps growth though chaos,   Or uncontrolled growth?

[bmcclure7]

On 9/23/2022 at 11:09 PM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Given how Mistborn Era one ended, I would be very surprised to see someone else merge Shards. I suspect that Cultivation will be killed and Shattered, and Odium will make war against Scadrial. Given that Harmony is effectively impotent but also, for all intents and purposes indestructible, the battles would all likely be fought by proxies.

I think Odium and Cultivation would form Genocide. Selective pruning based on hate seems pretty straight forward. Adding Honor to the mix would probably Make it into something similar to Crusade/Jihad but more to the tune of the war in Dune where tens of billions were killed in the name of the Kwizatz Haderach.

Adding Autonomy to Harmony would probably tilt it towards Autonomy because Ruin and Preservation are already balancing each other out. They are effectively nullifying each other which means most of the intent would probably be Autonomy. Hegemony and Empire are basically the antithesis of Autonomy. They would be more appropriately applied to Dominion.

 Genocide doesn't quite work with odium's intent. Odium is hatred because of actions. While genocide may be a consequence of odium it is not the core of it,  It also doesn't fit with the rhythm described described in rhythm of war. ( The rhythm of odium +cultivation is described as the rhythm of freedom)

 

"Selective pruning based on hate seems pretty straight forward. "  This sounds more like a combination of ruin and odium. Is cultivation isn't "pruning" Pruning is a tool used to cultivate. To cultivating something you need many tools including pruning,  But also providing nutrients, Health,  Distributing resources et cetera. 

 

 Is cultivation is about growth (not pruning)  Cultivation plus honor appears to produce science or civilization ( Controlled growth Growth restricted by rules or growth in understanding rules)

 Whereas odium plus cultivation appears to be more chaotic and unrestricted growth  (described as freedom)

Edited September 29, 2022 by bmcclure7

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Genocide doesn't quite work with odium's intent. Odium is hatred because of actions. While genocide may be a consequence of odium it is not the core of it,  It also doesn't fit with the rhythm described described in rhythm of war. ( The rhythm of odium +cultivation is described as the rhythm of freedom)

Cultivation is not growth. Growth can be a byproduct of cultivation. I think I already had this conversation with someone else in another thread. You seem to be talking about cultivation in an agricultural sense, but even then, cultivation is about land preparation and control of which plants are allowed to grow. The plants do the growing, the person cultivating them prepares the soil, provides the water, and trims the weeds. There is also the form of cultivation related to self improvement. A person seeking to better themselves is cultivating certain aspects (education, refinement, health, etc.) Then there is the type of cultivation used in lab work. This is essentially the same as the agricultural form, simply done at a smaller scale. By controlling the environment inside the lab cultures you can encourage the growth of certain organisms.

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

"Selective pruning based on hate seems pretty straight forward. "  This sounds more like a combination of ruin and odium. Is cultivation isn't "pruning" Pruning is a tool used to cultivate. To cultivating something you need many tools including pruning,  But also providing nutrients, Health,  Distributing resources et cetera.

Ruin is not selective, it is absolute. It doesn't seek to destroy some things so that others may flourish, it seeks to destroy all things resulting in something new. Cultivation is pruning. It is also encouraging. You remove the qualities you don't want and encourage the qualities you do want in order to arrive at the desired end state. This is true in all senses of the word Cultivation. Again, you only seem to be using cultivation in an agricultural sense (and even there you are conflating it with growth), where it is in fact a word that can be used to describe ordered change in a number of different systems.

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Is cultivation is about growth (not pruning)  Cultivation plus honor appears to produce science or civilization ( Controlled growth Growth restricted by rules or growth in understanding rules)

Cultivation is not growth. Navani does seem to perceive the combination of Lifelight and Stormlight as science. I would argue that science falls squarely into the domain of Invention, but obviously we haven't encountered that Shard yet. I can see how ordered change combined with rules could be perceived as science. It's worth noting that cultivation can be used to describe education as well as self improvement, both of which are science adjacent ideas.

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Whereas odium plus cultivation appears to be more chaotic and unrestricted growth  (described as freedom)

I understand that this is how Navani perceives it, however I do not agree that those two concepts combine to create freedom. Freedom is clearly well within the domain of Autonomy, which is in fact a synonym of freedom.

 

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Cultivation is not growth. Growth can be a byproduct of cultivation. I think I already had this conversation with someone else in another thread. You seem to be talking about cultivation in an agricultural sense, but even then, cultivation is about land preparation and control of which plants are allowed to grow. The plants do the growing, the person cultivating them prepares the soil, provides the water, and trims the weeds. There is also the form of cultivation related to self improvement. A person seeking to better themselves is cultivating certain aspects (education, refinement, health, etc.) Then there is the type of cultivation used in lab work. This is essentially the same as the agricultural form, simply done at a smaller scale. By controlling the environment inside the lab cultures you can encourage the growth of certain organisms.

Ruin is not selective, it is absolute. It doesn't seek to destroy some things so that others may flourish, it seeks to destroy all things resulting in something new. Cultivation is pruning. It is also encouraging. You remove the qualities you don't want and encourage the qualities you do want in order to arrive at the desired end state. This is true in all senses of the word Cultivation. Again, you only seem to be using cultivation in an agricultural sense (and even there you are conflating it with growth), where it is in fact a word that can be used to describe ordered change in a number of different systems.

Cultivation is not growth. Navani does seem to perceive the combination of Lifelight and Stormlight as science. I would argue that science falls squarely into the domain of Invention, but obviously we haven't encountered that Shard yet. I can see how ordered change combined with rules could be perceived as science. It's worth noting that cultivation can be used to describe education as well as self improvement, both of which are science adjacent ideas.

I understand that this is how Navani perceives it, however I do not agree that those two concepts combine to create freedom. Freedom is clearly well within the domain of Autonomy, which is in fact a synonym of freedom.

 

 1.Not growth but the promotion of growth.  It's about Doing what is necessary to Promoting growth.  It's not a byproduct but the goal.

 

2. By your own emission cultivation is a lot more than pruning. 

 

3.Ruin is absolute but it wouldn't be when combined with other shards. If we would combine cultivation and Ruin we would probably get pruning ( Destruction with the goal of promoting growth).  It makes perfect sense to me that odium combined with ruin would produce purge ( Destruction of impurities, unholiness et cetera) 

4.  By freedom she probably means uncontrolled growth unrestricted growth.  Odium is often described as chaotic and hard to control as a shard. It makes sense that when combined with cultivation (the promotion  of growth)  It would lead to a  More wild and chaotic form of growth. 

 

5.  Regardless if you can understand it or not this is what Brandon Sanderson wrote if you can't understand it you probably aren't understanding correctly what odium and cultivation are. 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by bmcclure7

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

22 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 1.Not growth but the promotion of growth.  It's about Doing what is necessary to Promoting growth.  It's not a byproduct but the goal.

Not growth, got it.

24 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. By your own emission cultivation is a lot more than pruning.

I emitted nothing. I also didn't admit anything. I gave a very clear explanation of the various forms of cultivation. I also never implied that cultivation was only pruning, I simply opined that pruning was the most likely piece of cultivation to express itself when combined with hate.

25 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

4.  By freedom she probably means uncontrolled growth unrestricted growth.  Odium is often described as chaotic and hard to control as a shard. It makes sense that when combined with cultivation (the promotion  of growth)  It would lead to a  More wild and chaotic form of growth.

Odium is a word. It has a clear meaning. None of those meanings are chaos or hard to control. It's meaning is hate, hatred, loathing, disgust, abhorrence, repugnance, repulsive, detestation, dislike and disapproval. Furthermore, wild growth is effectively the antithesis of cultivation. To say otherwise is basically saying that wild swampland is the same a botanical garden simply because both contain plants. You keep conflating cultivation with plants, but that is only one small part of it.

31 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

5.  Regardless if you can understand it or not this is what Brandon Sanderson wrote if you can't understand it you probably aren't understanding correctly what odium and cultivation are.

It is what Brandon Sanderson wrote from the point of view of a character who may or may not misunderstand what they are experiencing. An unreliable narrator is a tool that has been used by authors for a long time. Just because a character interprets something a certain way, does not make it law. The character Lift is a good example of this. She lacks the understanding to put things in technical or even accurate terms, so her inner monologue ends up being silly and childish (also enjoyable). Furthermore, Brandon isn't writing a thesis on the Cosmere, he is writing a story. This requires a certain amount of obfuscation and misdirection to keep the readers engaged and on the edge of their seats.

Finally, I understand perfectly well what odium and cultivation mean, as demonstrated by the several paragraphs in which I explained them in copious detail. It's safe to say that explaining this any further to you would be a waste of my time, so this will be my last response.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Not growth, got it.

I emitted nothing. I also didn't admit anything. I gave a very clear explanation of the various forms of cultivation. I also never implied that cultivation was only pruning, I simply opined that pruning was the most likely piece of cultivation to express itself when combined with hate.

Odium is a word. It has a clear meaning. None of those meanings are chaos or hard to control. It's meaning is hate, hatred, loathing, disgust, abhorrence, repugnance, repulsive, detestation, dislike and disapproval. Furthermore, wild growth is effectively the antithesis of cultivation. To say otherwise is basically saying that wild swampland is the same a botanical garden simply because both contain plants. You keep conflating cultivation with plants, but that is only one small part of it.

It is what Brandon Sanderson wrote from the point of view of a character who may or may not misunderstand what they are experiencing. An unreliable narrator is a tool that has been used by authors for a long time. Just because a character interprets something a certain way, does not make it law. The character Lift is a good example of this. She lacks the understanding to put things in technical or even accurate terms, so her inner monologue ends up being silly and childish (also enjoyable). Furthermore, Brandon isn't writing a thesis on the Cosmere, he is writing a story. This requires a certain amount of obfuscation and misdirection to keep the readers engaged and on the edge of their seats.

Finally, I understand perfectly well what odium and cultivation mean, as demonstrated by the several paragraphs in which I explained them in copious detail. It's safe to say that explaining this any further to you would be a waste of my time, so this will be my last response.

1. Yes you did  Admit it you said yourself that a lot of cultivation is preparing to land for growth. This is not pruning.

2.  I wouldn't exactly call hate easy to control. Hate is an emotion a Passion and by definition they're hard to control. And odium is often described in the book as hard to control.

 

3. Navani,  What about her makes her so unreliable. Do you really think she would mistake genocide for freedom?

 

4.  How exactly have we been misdirected?

 

5.  I have already addressed your views on cultivation. You basically say it's not growth. And then give various examples of people trying to grow things. 

6.  I actually don't think you know what odium means since you describe it as hate and not hate because of actions.