Hesina's Family

[Why Kaladin?]

Spoiler

Okay I reread it and it doesn't seem to imply that there were 2 Heralds on Braize where did it say that? I only learned that 1 of the Heralds was killed and since Gavilar got Anti-Voidlight someone else could and could have and could have created and early version of Raboniel's Dagger.

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by LightweaverWannabe

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

1 minute ago, LightweaverWannabe said:

Okay I reread it and it doesn't seem to imply that there were 2 Heralds on Braize where did it say that? I only learned that 1 of the Heralds was killed and since Gavilar got Anti-Voidlight someone else could and could have and could have created and early version of Raboniel's Dagger.

The other one is from the prelude that's included in TWoK

Also, shouldn't we refrain from mention SA5 prologue stuff outside spoilers, even though probably most people have already read it?

Edited July 28, 2022 by Ta'veren Kaladin

[offer]

I just reread the Hesina interlude in RoW and there are more facts about her father:

* Her father lives in Tomat (city in the Sadeas princedom).

    *  It is implied that her grandfather also lived there (she says the gap in the city wall is there from her grandfather`s time).

* Her father does not like Lirin for 25 years (Lirin says that he must be alive because otherwise he would be haunting him as a shade in the storms).

* He has a buisness, and has guards (I am not sure if the guards are just to defend the buisness or if the buisness is some kind of merceneries/bodyguards).

* He is "stubborn as a lighteyes".

* He has a special writ of forebearance from the citylord allowing him to use a sword. I think it means that he is darkeyes and hence needs a special permission for owning a sword.

* The citylord of Tomat is accustomed to doing what Hesina`s father bullies him to do for 3 deccades.

 

 

I think it proves that Hesina is not from Karbranth, but maybe her mother is. Since her father is darkeyes (but VERY high status derkeyes) probably her mother is lighteyes.

In addition, probably her mother is dead or not in Alethkar because Hesina and Lirin are worried for her father but not her mother.

[cometaryorbit]

2 hours ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

The other one is from the prelude that's included in TWoK

Also, shouldn't we refrain from mention SA5 prologue stuff outside spoilers, even though probably most people have already read it?

I think the point is that

Spoiler

The death of another Herald doesn't necessarily mean they went to Braize.

But I think Jezrien was the first permanent death of a Herald.

 

[bmcclure7]

On 7/28/2022 at 2:04 PM, LightweaverWannabe said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Okay I reread it and it doesn't seem to imply that there were 2 Heralds on Braize where did it say that? I only learned that 1 of the Heralds was killed and since Gavilar got Anti-Voidlight someone else could and could have and could have created and early version of Raboniel's Dagger.

 

 Word of Brandon says taln didn't break which implies a second harold.

[cometaryorbit]

5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Word of Brandon says taln didn't break which implies a second harold.

I don't know. I always took that as "the Everstorm meant that Heralds were now irrelevant to the Fused returning" (given Jasnah's comments at the end of WOR that everything might be different this time, and Odium's statement to Dalinar that he now can't prevent the Fused from being reborn). Though the Chanarach = Shallan's mother hypothesis does seem likelier now (though I still dislike it).

[bmcclure7]

6 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't know. I always took that as "the Everstorm meant that Heralds were now irrelevant to the Fused returning" (given Jasnah's comments at the end of WOR that everything might be different this time, and Odium's statement to Dalinar that he now can't prevent the Fused from being reborn). Though the Chanarach = Shallan's mother hypothesis does seem likelier now (though I still dislike it).

The  Desolation started before the ever storm. When taln came to earth. 

[cometaryorbit]

But didn't the Everstorm exist in the Cognitive Realm well before that?

[bmcclure7]

16 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

But didn't the Everstorm exist in the Cognitive Realm well before that?

Good point, curious why do you dislike the Chanarach = Shallan's mother hypothesis ?

Edited July 30, 2022 by bmcclure7

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't know. I always took that as "the Everstorm meant that Heralds were now irrelevant to the Fused returning" (given Jasnah's comments at the end of WOR that everything might be different this time, and Odium's statement to Dalinar that he now can't prevent the Fused from being reborn). Though the Chanarach = Shallan's mother hypothesis does seem likelier now (though I still dislike it).

That's what I thought too, but there was Nothing, not even a RAFO, that I could find in the Arcanum.

Next spoiler stream or AMA, someone who has reddit needs to ask Brandon something close to "Did the everstorm remove the ability of herald to hold the fused back?"

[teknopathetic he/him]

On 2022-07-28 at 3:45 PM, offer said:

I just reread the Hesina interlude in RoW and there are more facts about her father:

* Her father lives in Tomat (city in the Sadeas princedom).

    *  It is implied that her grandfather also lived there (she says the gap in the city wall is there from her grandfather`s time).

* Her father does not like Lirin for 25 years (Lirin says that he must be alive because otherwise he would be haunting him as a shade in the storms).

* He has a buisness, and has guards (I am not sure if the guards are just to defend the buisness or if the buisness is some kind of merceneries/bodyguards).

* He is "stubborn as a lighteyes".

* He has a special writ of forebearance from the citylord allowing him to use a sword. I think it means that he is darkeyes and hence needs a special permission for owning a sword.

* The citylord of Tomat is accustomed to doing what Hesina`s father bullies him to do for 3 deccades.

 

 

I think it proves that Hesina is not from Karbranth, but maybe her mother is. Since her father is darkeyes (but VERY high status derkeyes) probably her mother is lighteyes.

In addition, probably her mother is dead or not in Alethkar because Hesina and Lirin are worried for her father but not her mother.

Yes it seems like she isn’t. But she may have met her husband there. And by the wording of the deal with odium, any children born into the city would be protected. If she met Liren during his med school and stayed to have the baby there (which makes medical sense) then Khaladan would be protected from Odium per the deal. 

[offer]

16 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Yes it seems like she isn’t. But she may have met her husband there. And by the wording of the deal with odium, any children born into the city would be protected. If she met Liren during his med school and stayed to have the baby there (which makes medical sense) then Khaladan would be protected from Odium per the deal. 

I don`t think Lirin learnt in Karbranth. He wanted Kaladin to learn there as an oppurtinutiy he never had.

[Why Kaladin?]

10 hours ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

That's what I thought too, but there was Nothing, not even a RAFO, that I could find in the Arcanum.

Next spoiler stream or AMA, someone who has reddit needs to ask Brandon something close to "Did the everstorm remove the ability of herald to hold the fused back?"

This is an excellent question I'm not sure if it did I think it just removed the Fused's dependence on Odium so long as they can leave Braize they can return to Roshar now.

[teknopathetic he/him]

23 hours ago, offer said:

I don`t think Lirin learnt in Karbranth. He wanted Kaladin to learn there as an oppurtinutiy he never had.

I guess it looks like Liren just went there as a messenger once. Hmmmm. I could have sworn differently, but looks like I was wrong. 

[cometaryorbit]

On 7/30/2022 at 2:10 AM, bmcclure7 said:

Good point, curious why do you dislike the Chanarach = Shallan's mother hypothesis ?

In-world theory reason: Shallan has 4 brothers, and Cognitive Shadows having children is supposed to be a big deal.

Out-of-world story reason: we get a lot of emphasis on 'the Everstorm has fundamentally changed the rules from previous Desolations' (Jasnah at the end of WOR, Odium telling Dalinar he literally can't prevent the Fused from being reborn when they're setting the terms for the contest, the Defeated One being specifically reborn 'the old way' at the very end of ROW). I think it would be cleaner to have this Desolation have no connection with a Herald breaking at all. (It would also fit better with the idea that the Oathpact doesn't need to be 'fixed', and in fact was fatally flawed from the beginning, as seems to be implied from the Stormfather's "Honor was wrong" in OB.)

(Also, do we really need another "Shallan remembers a repressed memory of how she messed everything up by killing someone"?)

21 hours ago, LightweaverWannabe said:

This is an excellent question I'm not sure if it did I think it just removed the Fused's dependence on Odium so long as they can leave Braize they can return to Roshar now.

I kind of read it as - since the Everstorm is a piece of the Braize barrier storm - the Fused's imprisonment is irrelevant (in terms of protecting Roshar) even if still technically in force since part of their prison is now on Roshar.

But Odium still needs something else if he wants to send minions out of the Rosharan system. (But if Dalinar loses the Contest, he'd probably be unbound from Braize.)

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Yumiya]

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

(Also, do we really need another "Shallan remembers a repressed memory of how she messed everything up by killing someone"?)

This all the way.

[+robardin he/him]

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

In-world theory reason: Shallan has 4 brothers, and Cognitive Shadows having children is supposed to be a big deal.

Out-of-world story reason: we get a lot of emphasis on 'the Everstorm has fundamentally changed the rules from previous Desolations' (Jasnah at the end of WOR, Odium telling Dalinar he literally can't prevent the Fused from being reborn when they're setting the terms for the contest, the Defeated One being specifically reborn 'the old way' at the very end of ROW). I think it would be cleaner to have this Desolation have no connection with a Herald breaking at all. (It would also fit better with the idea that the Oathpact doesn't need to be 'fixed', and in fact was fatally flawed from the beginning, as seems to be implied from the Stormfather's "Honor was wrong" in OB.)

(Also, do we really need another "Shallan remembers a repressed memory of how she messed everything up by killing someone"?)

I kind of read it as - since the Everstorm is a piece of the Braize barrier storm - the Fused's imprisonment is irrelevant (in terms of protecting Roshar) even if still technically in force since part of their prison is now on Roshar.

But Odium still needs something else if he wants to send minions out of the Rosharan system. (But if Dalinar loses the Contest, he'd probably be unbound from Braize.)

It's not clear that the Everstorm, which is a new thing that never existed before in past Desolations (and is apparently what makes this the Final Desolation), could have happened without the Oathpact being so weakened - by the foreswearing at Aharietiam, and then by the Unknown Herald Not Taln Who Broke.

I agree that it shouldn't have needed the UHNTWB to trigger, but from the way that Ulim (and obliquely, Gavilar as wel) talks in RoW ("that storm to the south... you have no idea what I'm talking about" that contained all the Voidspren and Fused souls), and the way that the spren talk in terms of wanting to form Nahel bonds again after all this time about 10 years prior to the Everstorm, it seems clear that "something" was noticeably building up in the Cognitive Realm towards that becoming a possibility.

What that something was due to is yet to be seen, but it wasn't to do with Taln breaking, and unlikely to do with UHNTWB breaking under torture on Braize either, as that should have simply allowed a "normal" Desolation to begin, if that was it (dead Herald = returned to Braize to join Taln the Unbroken = other Herald breaks = Normal Desolation).

I suspect it has to do with the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram, and possibly to do with however B-A-M was able to grant Voidlight and forms of power in Odium's absence before that. However it is that that event also triggered the inherited zombification of the non-listener parsh (who were Connected to Odium), the phenomenon of deadeye Radiant spren if their Radiant broke the bond or oaths, the original "rules" of the game were already being rewritten somehow, this was just the latest beta release.

As to the topic in the OP - speculating on Hesina's family - I think it's simply that she grew up a darkeyed daughter of a first or second nahn Citizen father (who still needs a writ to carry a sword) who married a lower dahn lighteyed woman, one reason that Lirin and her apparently thought matching Kaladin with Laral was a real possibility.

We also picked up a hint about this when Kaladin recognized the song that Aesudan was singing in Kholinar, without knowing why - a WoB where he obliquely refers to that being something due to his mother.

We've seen the children of lighteyes/darkeyes unions produce a few "one-eyes" (people with heterochromia, one light and one dark), including mention of one of Graves' children, but that clearly isn't always the case (Graves has more than one child with his darkeyed wife). I wonder if there are ever "fully lighteyed" children of such a union? And how are the children counted - I guess if like Hesina they are dark in the eye, they are darkeyed (but high nahn)?

Edited August 1, 2022 by robardin

[cometaryorbit]

17 hours ago, robardin said:

It's not clear that the Everstorm, which is a new thing that never existed before in past Desolations (and is apparently what makes this the Final Desolation), could have happened without the Oathpact being so weakened - by the foreswearing at Aharietiam, and then by the Unknown Herald Not Taln Who Broke.

I agree that it shouldn't have needed the UHNTWB to trigger, but from the way that Ulim (and obliquely, Gavilar as wel) talks in RoW ("that storm to the south... you have no idea what I'm talking about" that contained all the Voidspren and Fused souls), and the way that the spren talk in terms of wanting to form Nahel bonds again after all this time about 10 years prior to the Everstorm, it seems clear that "something" was noticeably building up in the Cognitive Realm towards that becoming a possibility.

Do we actually know any Herald broke or returned to Braize? Even under the Shallan's mother is Chanarach hypothesis, there's that whole thing about Shallan's mother's soul being in the safe - which actually makes sense to a degree if she's a Herald and thus Cognitive Shadow. Perhaps she set up a way to avoid going to Braize in case she died.

I agree the timing is not a coincidence, but the cause and effect could go the other way. Apparently the Everstorm was being set up in the Cognitive for a very long time - its approach could push spren into seeking bonds again, which the Heralds notice and become more active in the world again (eg Ishar taking over a nation and Nale hunting the new proto-Radiants, and a bunch of Heralds being involved with Gavilar) leading to one of them getting killed.

[+robardin he/him]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

Do we actually know any Herald broke or returned to Braize? Even under the Shallan's mother is Chanarach hypothesis, there's that whole thing about Shallan's mother's soul being in the safe - which actually makes sense to a degree if she's a Herald and thus Cognitive Shadow. Perhaps she set up a way to avoid going to Braize in case she died.

I agree the timing is not a coincidence, but the cause and effect could go the other way. Apparently the Everstorm was being set up in the Cognitive for a very long time - its approach could push spren into seeking bonds again, which the Heralds notice and become more active in the world again (eg Ishar taking over a nation and Nale hunting the new proto-Radiants, and a bunch of Heralds being involved with Gavilar) leading to one of them getting killed.

It's stated that Taln did not break to trigger this Final Desolation, ...

Quote

Questioner

Taln. Did he actually ever give up? Or was it... Did he just get released when...?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find out, but Taln did not break. You'll find out how it happened, but Taln did not break.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

And a Herald dying (per the Stormfaker's reaction in the released draft prologue to SA5) the night of Gavilar's death appears to have been relevant:

Quote

A Herald... A Herald has died... No. I am not ready... The Oathpact... No. They mustn’t see. They mustn’t know...

But no, we have no reason to think that that required the Herald who had died to have gone to Braize and been broken for the Final Desolation to begin.

For one, when Ulim talks to Venli about how annoying it was for him to FINALLY get to Roshar, he never mentions a Herald breaking as a factor; instead he mentions entering "that gemstone" in Shadesmar, the one that Axindweth had given to her to break in the highstorm.

That happened a few years AFTER the "Herald has died" moment on the night of Gavilar's death, so, the Oathpact was still effective enough to prevent a "normal" Desolation and return of Fused to Roshar, but not to prevent stormform listeners to pull the Everstorm across to the Physical Realm.

Of course, if Taln hadn't broken and no other Herald had returned to Braize and broken, how is it that Taln arrived at Kholinar at the end of TWoK? That was before the Everstorm, and also before Venli freed Ulim in WoR. 

More questions than answers!

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by robardin

[cometaryorbit]

54 minutes ago, robardin said:

It's stated that Taln did not break to trigger this Final Desolation, ...

And a Herald dying (per the Stormfaker's reaction in the released draft prologue to SA5) the night of Gavilar's death appears to have been relevant:

But no, we have no reason to think that that required the Herald who had died to have gone to Braize and been broken for the Final Desolation to begin.

For one, when Ulim talks to Venli about how annoying it was for him to FINALLY get to Roshar, he never mentions a Herald breaking as a factor; instead he mentions entering "that gemstone" in Shadesmar, the one that Axindweth had given to her to break in the highstorm.

That happened a few years AFTER the "Herald has died" moment on the night of Gavilar's death, so, the Oathpact was still effective enough to prevent a "normal" Desolation and return of Fused to Roshar, but not to prevent stormform listeners to pull the Everstorm across to the Physical Realm.

Of course, if Taln hadn't broken and no other Herald had returned to Braize and broken, how is it that Taln arrived at Kholinar at the end of TWoK? That was before the Everstorm, and also before Venli freed Ulim in WoR. 

More questions than answers!

 

Back when I was completely unconvinced by the Chanarach idea, I figured Taln appeared because the Everstorm in the  Cognitive had already bypassed the Oathpact- he either chose to leave because his resistance was no longer accomplishing anything (rather than because he broke), or once the Desolation kicked off he got booted back to Roshar the same way the other nine did when one broke historically.

[+robardin he/him]

19 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Back when I was completely unconvinced by the Chanarach idea, I figured Taln appeared because the Everstorm in the  Cognitive had already bypassed the Oathpact- he either chose to leave because his resistance was no longer accomplishing anything (rather than because he broke), or once the Desolation kicked off he got booted back to Roshar the same way the other nine did when one broke historically.

But at the end of TWoK, there was no Everstorm yet (that was summoned by the army of stormform listeners at the Battle of Narak at the end of WoR)

Taln seems pretty crazy at Kholinar and doesn't seem to realize very much at all

And without the Everstorm being in the Physical Realm yet, has the Desolation "kciked off"? What would define that?

Actually I think I get your first point, meaning the "Cognitive" storm "to the south" of Narak that Ulim said was where he'd come from after somehow being put into a gemstone, that may have been there already in Shadesmar in TWoK before Taln's arrival to Kholinar? And whatever allowed that to amass in Shadesmar, "counted" as a Desolation trigger?

That fits, but is as yet in the realm of pure speculation (no evidence yet).

[cometaryorbit]

23 hours ago, robardin said:

Actually I think I get your first point, meaning the "Cognitive" storm "to the south" of Narak that Ulim said was where he'd come from after somehow being put into a gemstone, that may have been there already in Shadesmar in TWoK before Taln's arrival to Kholinar? And whatever allowed that to amass in Shadesmar, "counted" as a Desolation trigger?

That fits, but is as yet in the realm of pure speculation (no evidence yet).

Yes exactly. Ulim was on Roshar well before TWOK so things were building to a Desolation. What I'm suggesting is that at around the end of TWOK (or somewhat earlier if it takes time for a Herald to travel from Braize to Roshar) it reached a "critical point" and the Return or Desolation officially began, kicking Taln back to Roshar.

Historically the Heralds did arrive before the Fused.