Use of Hemalurgy to the Cosmere

[discipleofhoid he/him]

So I logged in to see more of the Alloy of Law preview and it allowed me to see the entire essay on the Three Metallic arts. I found this quote to be particularly interesting. Since Alloy of Law is not out yet I have put it as a spoiler

Though many throughout history have maligned it as an "evil" art, none of the Investitures are actually evil. At its core, Hemalurgy deals with the removing of abilities --or attributes-- from one person and bestowing them on another. It is primarily concerned with things of the spiritual realm and is of the greatest interest to me. If one of these three arts is of great interest to the Cosmere is is this one. I think there are great possibilities for its use.

So how could have great possibilities from a Cosmere perspective? Speculation anyone?

In the same vein could you spike a shardholder and what would happen if you did?

[LightReader she/her]

I'm wondering if this means that Hemalurgy could be used to steal abilities that don't exist on Scadrial. Could someone use it to steal surgebinding abilities? Or maybe it could give metallic abilities someone who is not from Scadrial? I'm sure there's a whole spiritual DNA issue here though.

Also the thing about Hemalurgy not being inherently evil makes me wonder if there's a way to use it without killing the person you are stealing abilities from.

[discipleofhoid he/him]

I'm wondering if this means that Hemalurgy could be used to steal abilities that don't exist on Scadrial. Could someone use it to steal surgebinding abilities? Or maybe it could give metallic abilities someone who is not from Scadrial? I'm sure there's a whole spiritual DNA issue here though.

But this deals specifically with spiritual DNA or as it is called else where in the essay the "Spiritweb". The essay states, talking about allomancy:

The body then filters it into various forms. (The actual outlet of the power is not chosen by the practitioner, but instead is hardwritten into their Spiritweb.)

This means that the Spiritual DNA is different for each different type of allomancer. So when a spike is used it literally grabs that part of the Spiritweb and holds it in the spike.

So Hemalurgy then deals with adding to or taking away from someone's Spiritweb. Assuming that the Investiture information is in the same area of the Spiritweb or depending on how it works in the same format, Hemalurgy could steal any power not just the metallic arts. Until we have more information about how other investitures are coded though this would just be speculation.

edited to clarify.

Edited November 2, 2011 by discipleofhoid

[CrazyRioter she/her]

I suppose it might be alright if it were done as part of a "living will", say somebody had an allomantic or feruchemical power that they wanted to "donate" to somebody else upon their death, they could write it as part of a "living will" that if they are ever terminally ill or brain dead or whatever they want to be stabbed to death with a spike to take the power so it can be given to the person they designate.

[Cromptj he/him]

The fact that it takes part of the spirit web suggests that hemalurgy can only steal hereditary powers, if it can steal any other than allomancy or feruchemy. It would be interesting, however, if the bond between spren and radiant changed said radiant's spiritweb. This would have no practical use unless someone from Scadrial turned up during SA.(although I wouldn't put it past Brandon)

[discipleofhoid he/him]

The fact that it takes part of the spirit web suggests that hemalurgy can only steal hereditary powers, if it can steal any other than allomancy or feruchemy. It would be interesting, however, if the bond between spren and radiant changed said radiant's spiritweb. This would have no practical use unless someone from Scadrial turned up during SA.(although I wouldn't put it past Brandon)

I don't think the hereditary nature of the Spiritweb is that important in this case. Having thought about it I think that Hemalurgy could transfer any Investiture. This is based on a series of assumptions and observations.

1.The author in the Ars Arcanum does not seem to separate the metallic arts from other Investiture as much as we seem to.

2. Investiture is referred to as a Spiritual Attribute in the Ars Arcanum.

3. The Feruchemical power that can store Investiture. Not metallic arts powers but Investiture.

4. In all cases Investiture is genetic(you must be from the right planet/area of the planet to access the Investiture)

5. All of the Investitures require you to do something in line with the intent of the shard to gain access to the Investiture.

6. Hemalurgy does not require a person to have fulfilled the intent requirement to gain access to an investiture.

7.Hemalurgy does not require a person to have fulfilled the genetic requirement to gain access to an investiture.

Thus I would conclude that Hemalurgy could transfer any Investiture. Now that I have that on paper I really like that thought. I think I will post this as a theory separately.

The only flaw I can see is if Hemalurgy has a genetic requirement.

Edited November 2, 2011 by discipleofhoid

[Pechvarry]

Hi folks. I used to hang around TWG and I've been reading AoL, which means it's time to get back into Sandersonian forums. So thanks for having these wonderful forums!

Reading the Ars Arcanum on this topic made me think about something I considered long ago: Hemalurgy and Breath.

If I spike someone and myself, can I steal their breath?

I have a better one. Let's make a few baseless assumptions:

a: an Allomancer can obtain and use breath

b: Gunther, over there, is a Pewterarm.

The following then occurs:

1)Gunther collects breaths and awakens a scarecrow.

-does this awakened scarecrow possess the ability to burn pewter? He lacks the physical requirements, certainly, but that's the same scenario as Gunther himself being out of Pewter. Just because he lacks the means to burn pewter doesn't mean he lacks the capacity.

2) Gunther, being a man learned in the Spiritweb of straw people, spikes the scarecrow.

Does he steal its investiture? Has Gunther created a Pewterarm spike, using Breath to pay the cost in life and blood? Would he need to use some blood as part of the awakening process, similar to Vasher's use of his own hair?

If this can be pulled off, you have something quite fascinating. using the warm and friendly Awakening, as well as the twisted and disturbing Hemalurgy, you come out with a way to freely hand out any magic to anyone. You just... have to survive the implant. How's that for "interest to the Cosmere"?

---

I don't really expect anyone to respond to this with a solid "yes, you are completely 100% correct." But feel free to point out where Brandon's said things that would patently foil this concept. More importantly: food for thought. Enjoy.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Pechvarry

[Argent he/him]

I think there may be a way to circumvene the Investiture donor's death. If the Spiritweb - or Spiritual DNA, as we've been calling it for a long time - is part of a person's Spiritual self (where the other two selves are the Physical body and the Cognitive mind/personality), it may be possible to access that without the whole messy spiking process. Imagine, a few books down the line, a scientist entering the Spiritual world, finding his subject's projection there, and taking whatever is needed from his Spiritweb. He could then store it inside some medium, walk to the recepient of the DNA "segment", add it to their Spiritweb, and go back to the Physical world. The donor would suddenly lose the ability to manifest this particular Investiture, and the reciever would suddenly gain it.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Yeah, I have a feeling there's a way to use Hemalurgy that's not quite so gruesome. Precision is probably the key here. In Mistborn, they're trying to do delicate spiritual surgery with a butcher's knife, when what they need is a lot more experience and a scalpel.

Either that, or hemalurgy could be used to take the powers of someone who was either dying or at the end of their life. A way to recycle powers if you will. This could be how Allomancy would be able to last until the next Mistborn trilogies, unless Sazed decides to provide Lerasium instead to reboot the genetic lines.

Also, I've wondered, it's said that you can only steal one of a mistborn's powers when you killed them with a spike. But what if more than one spike was used to kill them, all of them stabbed simultaniously at different points in their body. Ooh, creepy. Now I'm imagining like inquisitor tables covered with spikes lined up in the right pattern. All you'd have to do was push the poor mistborn down and charge all the spikes simultaniously.

[darniil he/him]

Also, I've wondered, it's said that you can only steal one of a mistborn's powers when you killed them with a spike. But what if more than one spike was used to kill them, all of them stabbed simultaniously at different points in their body. Ooh, creepy. Now I'm imagining like inquisitor tables covered with spikes lined up in the right pattern. All you'd have to do was push the poor mistborn down and charge all the spikes simultaniously.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Yeah, I have a feeling there's a way to use Hemalurgy that's not quite so gruesome. Precision is probably the key here. In Mistborn, they're trying to do delicate spiritual surgery with a butcher's knife, when what they need is a lot more experience and a scalpel.

Either that, or hemalurgy could be used to take the powers of someone who was either dying or at the end of their life. A way to recycle powers if you will. This could be how Allomancy would be able to last until the next Mistborn trilogies, unless Sazed decides to provide Lerasium instead to reboot the genetic lines.

I actually already came up with the idea of somebody having a document saying that if they are sick and dying or brain dead or whatever they should have their power taken out with a spike so somebody else could have it.

[Catalyst21 he/him]

Aaaaand this is a topic for the Mistborn threads.

Give me a bit, and I'll pull over some of the questions I have. I also need to decide if I have enough time to transcribe the Q&A....

These are the questions I overheard. I'll let others do the other ones.

• 
  ...
  
• Does the person being pierced in order to charge a Hemalurgic spike have to die?
  Status- Not necessarily. A spike does require you to rip pieces of a soul from the victim, but that does not mean they must die. They would be a very different person afterwords though.
  ...
  

Edited November 11, 2011 by Catalyst21

[darniil he/him]

That makes me wonder more about something that I thought of the other day, something that touches on other topics that have been covered before.

Is the Breath a part of the Spiritweb, or could it be the entire Spiritweb of someone from Nalthis? The differences between a drab and a non-drab sounds like it could be similar to how someone would change if they were tapped with a hemalurgic spike but not killed.

[Zas678 he/him]

I think that a non-death spike will take a LOT more than a Breath does. A Breath won't kill you- it only takes a small portion of your spiritual (possibly cognitive) self. It makes you a little more grumpy, a little more irritable, and truly isn't that bad to go around for a week or so.

On the other side, when Brandon was talking about a spike, it was in the order of "if you're careful, they *might* survive." And it seemed like it takes a lot more than a Breath, or at least is much more violent in the way it removes it.

I guess you might make it look like an ice cube. When you take an ice cube and punch a whole through it, the ice is not likely to survive, unless you're really skilled and really careful. But then you still have a giant jagged hole in the middle of your ice cube, and it's much more fragile.

Breath is more like two ice cubes that are generally together, but you can take one away and put it somewhere else if you want to, then bring it back with pretty much no change.

Does that make sense? Spikes are removing something that isn't supposed to be removed, and so it tends to take (and Ruin) a bunch of the spiked person. Breath are easily removed, transferred, and then taken back again, so there isn't any loss involved.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

I agree, Breath can be removed then replaced with no permanent ill effects, and is given away freely, and without trauma, with hemalurgy even if the "donor" lives they are going to end up with something equivalent to a big bleeding hole in their soul from having part of it forcibly ripped away. Which can't be good for their long-term happiness and sanity, and unlike Breath, the ripped off piece can't be replaced, except maybe by Act of Shard.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Even if the person is willing, Hemalurgy seems pretty gruesome to me. You are taking a part of someone's Spiritweb - which might or might not be analogous to their soul - and stapling it onto someone else. That is always going to be a violent act, and a destructive one. Even if the person survives, there is simply less of them to survive than there used to be.

That said, one cannot doubt its effectiveness. I would wager it can steal many types of Investure. The most immediate to come into my mind after I read that was using Hemalurgy on Elantrians. They are pretty clearly examples of people who have powers because of the specific way their spiritweb was altered by outside forces.

I wonder if someone who gained the powers of a Returned through Hemalurgy could be tuned to not need additional Breaths, though...

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[discipleofhoid he/him]

Even if the person is willing, Hemalurgy seems pretty gruesome to me. You are taking a part of someone's Spiritweb - which might or might not be analogous to their soul - and stapling it onto someone else. That is always going to be a violent act, and a destructive one. Even if the person survives, there is simply less of them to survive than there used to be.

That said, one cannot doubt its effectiveness. I would wager it can steal many types of Investure. The most immediate to come into my mind after I read that was using Hemalurgy on Elantrians. They are pretty clearly examples of people who have powers because of the specific way their spiritweb was altered by outside forces.

I wonder if someone who gained the powers of a Returned through Hemalurgy could be tuned to not need additional Breaths, though...

-- Deus Ex Biotica

Returned would be a good example of a semi decent case of hemalurgy. If the returned is going to die anyway but his breath can be used to help other by saving it with hemalurgy you could say that this would be a moral use of hemalurgy.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

I might, except that the Returned could spend their Breath to save people immediately, anyway, without Heamurgical Decay, or the possibility that you're denying this being their afterlife.

If the Returned consents to it, so be it, but it's still a magic system founded in cosmic destruction, so I'm always going to question its use.

-- Deus Ex Biotica