Returned Healing?

[Duxredux]

So I had a thought while answering another thread. I wonder if Returned could heal injuries by thinking them away.

We see Vivenna altering her personal appearance including adding a scar to her face as a disguise. The scar goes away once she drops the guise, so adding and removing that kind of "injury" is within Vivenna's and presumably Vasher's abilities. I wonder if a Returned could convince themselves that they hadn't been injured even though they really had, if they could heal themselves by reasserting their perception of a undamaged body. We see Kelsier's Cognitive Shadow get beaten up until he's on the ground expecting broken bones, but the pain is a function of his mind thinking he should be hurt. Would this be something only a Returned or one of their descendants could do? 

Any thoughts? It's made me wonder for a while now that the Investiture specifically noted to be tied to life is the worst at healing, with the only major case being when a Returned uses their Divine Breath to heal someone. For crying out loud Vasher deliberately dumps BioChroma into people he intends to immediately kill. 

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

30 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

So I had a thought while answering another thread. I wonder if Returned could heal injuries by thinking them away.

We see Vivenna altering her personal appearance including adding a scar to her face as a disguise. The scar goes away once she drops the guise, so adding and removing that kind of "injury" is within Vivenna's and presumably Vasher's abilities. I wonder if a Returned could convince themselves that they hadn't been injured even though they really had, if they could heal themselves by reasserting their perception of a undamaged body. We see Kelsier's Cognitive Shadow get beaten up until he's on the ground expecting broken bones, but the pain is a function of his mind thinking he should be hurt. Would this be something only a Returned or one of their descendants could do? 

Any thoughts? It's made me wonder for a while now that the Investiture specifically noted to be tied to life is the worst at healing, with the only major case being when a Returned uses their Divine Breath to heal someone. For crying out loud Vasher deliberately dumps BioChroma into people he intends to immediately kill. 

They probably could, it would take practice. also, anything that would kill them right off/put them in a state which they cannot convince themselves that they are healed would damage them.

[Adonlasium]

Maybe, if they always viewed themselves as unblemished they would be invincible.

[cometaryorbit]

There have got to be limits to how dramatic a change is possible without more Investiture input, IMO.

And it's probably impossible to think of yourself as healed while in severe pain.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

There have got to be limits to how dramatic a change is possible without more Investiture input, IMO.

And it's probably impossible to think of yourself as healed while in severe pain.

I am curious if this theory could apply to aluminum compounders.  Not saying anyone could afford this... but the idea that you have this boatload of investiture at your fingertips and you can literally draw on a newly healed or perfected identity.   

I figure if there is a connection to a spiritual ideal of ones self and there is enough investiture to back it up we see investiture plug gaps.  

[Duxredux]

On 5/19/2022 at 7:00 PM, cometaryorbit said:

There have got to be limits to how dramatic a change is possible without more Investiture input, IMO.

And it's probably impossible to think of yourself as healed while in severe pain.

Agreed. To actually get to the point you could think yourself healed and dandy while in extreme pain would take way more... practice than most people would ever want to go through, since it's a trick of the mind. You'd have to get blown up more times than Wayne. It does make me wonder if they would be able to heal after applying an anesthetic to the injury. Amputation might be out, though phantom limb syndrome is a thing.

Maybe for a Returned, healing this way would take effort and accelerate the time table that they need to consume their weekly Breath, the acceleration based on the extent of the injury? That seems logical. 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

4 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Agreed. To actually get to the point you could think yourself healed and dandy while in extreme pain would take way more... practice than most people would ever want to go through, since it's a trick of the mind. You'd have to get blown up more times than Wayne. It does make me wonder if they would be able to heal after applying an anesthetic to the injury. Amputation might be out, though phantom limb syndrome is a thing.

Maybe for a Returned, healing this way would take effort and accelerate the time table that they need to consume their weekly Breath, the acceleration based on the extent of the injury? That seems logical. 

I am curious how and if F aluminum could impact the same way.   If you could compound and your identity included you having legs post amputation could the compounded investiture fix that?  Or is aluminum F only impacting your perception of yourself?  

[Duxredux]

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I am curious how and if F aluminum could impact the same way.   If you could compound and your identity included you having legs post amputation could the compounded investiture fix that?  Or is aluminum F only impacting your perception of yourself?  

I honestly don't know, and that's why I didn't comment on your earlier thought. Identity manipulation is something that Brandon has kept pretty heavily under wraps, though he did ease up once he revealed Southern Scadrian tech. I did find a few WoBs that seemed relevant.

Spoiler

Quote

Krios (paraphrased)

If you have a form of manipulating your Identity and a form of healing, are you able to shapeshift or even evolve your body like growing wings?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You'd have to do some real work on your Spiritweb to make that work. It'd take more work than you're implying, but the [singers] for instance are doing this. It'll take a little more work, it's not just blanking your Identity. Hemalurgy would make it very easy, but also very evil. But what you want to achieve is possible.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

Quote

Questioner

I was wondering if an aluminum Feruchemist, if he stores up Spiritual Identity, could he survive a hit from a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that. Identity is not the right place to go for that. Exact mechanics are RAFO, but that's kinda along the wrong path.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 7, 2018)

Quote

VindicationKnight

If compounding Identity protects from mental influence like Soothing would it also protect from more mundane means of influence, like alcohol or a persuasive speaker?

Brandon Sanderson

Not as I currently envision it.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 19, 2015)

Quote

Questioner

Could you use the Feruchemical ability to store Identity to heal damage done to you in the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... yes, but it's gonna take a roundabout method to make it happen... Yes, but Identity can be very useful for all sorts of things like this.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

I'm not sure if these are relevant to the question of if Returned can heal, because their self-perception directly influences their physical body. It looks like F-Aluminum by itself probably doesn't affect the physical body to this extent...? Again, this is really tenuous.

[cometaryorbit]

I wonder what the mechanism of Returned body change is anyway. Is it a Divine Breath thing or a Cognitive Shadow thing?

Hmm the Royal Locks color change implies it's probably a Divine Breath thing since Idrian royals are regular humans with a Divine Breath 'fragment'* not Shadows.

*and I still want to know what that means since Divine Breath is used up all at once when used to heal... and regular Breaths don't seem to be divisible... does reproduction weaken a Returned's Divine Breath by carving off a fragment of Investiture?

[Treamayne]

On 5/25/2022 at 5:21 PM, cometaryorbit said:

does reproduction weaken a Returned's Divine Breath by carving off a fragment of Investiture?

I would guess the Cause/Effect relationship to go the other way around.

Since we don't have the canon way that Returned can procreate, I would guess that the "method" is (with Command and Intent) using a piece of the divine breath to have a child. Once the child is born with a portion of divine breath, it would likely be passed down like other sDNA.

[cometaryorbit]

Hmm. Yeah that seems very plausible.

But it does raise the question of the "divisibility" of Divine Breath and regular Breath.

[teknopathetic]

The Royal locks thing is still EXTREMELY strange. It only touches people who are perceived as legitimate heirs to the throne as determined by ???? (the royal family? Endowment? The populace). Is this genetic? Can any member of the royal family have the royal locks if they simply believed they were in line to the throne? Could it change? Like, all the heirs die so a 2nd cousin or bastard child is now next in line? 

That is one weird instigation of investiture. It makes me wonder if a command was used or something to permanently give some advantages to the royal family's decedents. 

[Duxredux]

13 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

The Royal locks thing is still EXTREMELY strange. It only touches people who are perceived as legitimate heirs to the throne as determined by ???? (the royal family? Endowment? The populace). Is this genetic? Can any member of the royal family have the royal locks if they simply believed they were in line to the throne? Could it change? Like, all the heirs die so a 2nd cousin or bastard child is now next in line? 

That is one weird instigation of investiture. It makes me wonder if a command was used or something to permanently give some advantages to the royal family's decedents. 

Vasher uses the Royal Locks as evidence that Vivenna has Returned blood in her, so at some level it's genetic. Sure he probably knows her heritage, but Vasher doesn't lie, at least not directly. I could see the Royal Locks getting passed down through a subconscious Intent if the royal personage knows that a child will legitimately be in the line of succession. The locks themselves react subconsciously, so I think it doesn't have to be consciously passed to follow the succession nonetheless (unless there is Awakening of a sort happening within the Royal Idrian family despite the heresy). If eligible, as people perceive it, the new child is endowed with power to become king simply by being born legitimately, and if people can make that distinction subconsciously perhaps there is an accompanying Endowment of Investiture. I could see this level of subconscious control over genetic bestowal of power only possible with Investiture specific to Endowment. Because people believe the story that only heirs can inherit the Locks, it becomes reality, with the tutoring/conditioning of the new princes and princesses. My guess is that a random scion not originally thought to be legitimate would not spontaneously gain the Royal Locks if all rightful heirs were to die.

Alternately, someone not of the royal line with the locks is a great target for assassination to maintain a smooth succession...

[cometaryorbit]

Its following legitimacy rather than simple biological inheritance could maybe have been a condition of that original grant (Endowment?) of Investiture, assuming that it was indeed a conscious granting of a portion of Divine Breath rather than just a side effect of weird Spiritual DNA heredity things.

[teknopathetic]

1. Vo  Returns for a week (but might not be true)
2. Has children in that time (which we still don't know how to do but apparently he did somehow)
3. ?
4. All legitimate heirs have extra abilities
   1. Hair Colour Changes (that make Siri and Vivenna hungry, which is a little bit like Lift)
   2. Increased affinity for commanding (according to Vasher)
   3. Other things?

So yeah? If Vivenna got cut, could she heal that? Kind of seems within the realm of possibility, right? She can regrow her hair I think, so if she/soceity believed she could heal her skin, maybe she could? 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Dr. Joe]

On 5/31/2022 at 0:49 PM, teknopathetic said:

Hair Colour Changes (that make Siri and Vivenna hungry, which is a little bit like Lift)

This EXACT point just jumped out at me.  I believe Lift's metabolic conversion of Investiture is a result of her unique position relative to the Cognitive Realm, so it makes sense to me that there's a Cognitive aspect to the Royal Locks as well.