theory Aluminum theory

[NameIess]

14 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

Simply because it can store investiture, regardless of what that investiture is? Is identity even investiture?

Unless F-aluminum is completely different from all other forms of feruchemy, identity is investiture. The importance of this is that aluminum can interact with magic systems semi-normally. So it wouldn't make sense for it to be used to shatter Adonalsium, especially when we already have a pretty reasonable way for that to happen in the Dawnshards.

[Frustration]

59 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

The feruchemy doesn’t matter because it stores identity. That doesn’t count because identity is a self-aware concept gained through consciousness given to humanity by Ruin/Preservation. It’s still anti-god. Also, no one knows how identity works, and Brandon has avoided talking about it. 

Identity is a spiritual identification, similar to an antegin on a cell.

Spoiler

Phantine

So... CS question here, I'm seeing identity as essentially a 'encryption' on the metalmind - the spike has the decryption key to existing metalminds, but when you encrypt a new one you use your personal encryption key with the spike's hardware, so you still have compounding access to the metalminds even after removing the spike.

Is it possible for there to be a 'key collision' with Identity? Two people just randomly end up making compatible metalminds, because the pieces of their Identities that the magic looks like happen to be the same.

Brandon Sanderson

This would be about as likely as two unrelated people ending up with the exact same genetic sequence.

But, so far as I understand, that WOULD be possible.

Lucadaw

So identical twins could share metalminds ?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 9, 2015)

50 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

Simply because it can store investiture, regardless of what that investiture is? Is identity even investiture?

Not likely

49 minutes ago, Primeval Chaos said:

So Aluminum is a metal that destroys Investiture, stores Investiture, and blocks Investiture

On its own Investiture is only inert, when used in the metalic arts it has other uses.

32 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Unless F-aluminum is completely different from all other forms of feruchemy, identity is investiture. The importance of this is that aluminum can interact with magic systems semi-normally. So it wouldn't make sense for it to be used to shatter Adonalsium, especially when we already have a pretty reasonable way for that to happen in the Dawnshards.

Well Connection isn't investiture.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Frustration

[NameIess]

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well Connection isn't investiture.

Isn't it? What's your source on that?

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Isn't it? What's your source on that?

This WoB

Spoiler

Aurimus

As the two Realms, the Cognitive and the Spiritual, are, well, fictional... Are they all comprised of Investiture, completely?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. No, completely? Well, here's the thing. Investiture, matter, and energy are all the same thing in the cosmere. So, just like energy and matter are the same thing here. So, yes, everything's made of Investiture, in the same way that everything's made of energy in our world. Does that make sense?

Aurimus

So, what about what spren are made of in the Cognitive Realm? Is that just Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

So, yeah, I'll dig more into that. I'm gonna go with Investiture for now, but I could change that as I move along. What I'm kind of debating is, is there a separate Cognitive state, and I don't think so. So I'm gonna go with Investiture for now.

Aurimus

How about Connection?

Brandon Sanderson

Connection is, like, the equivalent of a quantum connection in our world, so it's more like a force than something comprised of something. The question is like, "What is gravity comprised of?" And then you start asking weird questions.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

This WoB

  Reveal hidden contents

Aurimus

As the two Realms, the Cognitive and the Spiritual, are, well, fictional... Are they all comprised of Investiture, completely?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. No, completely? Well, here's the thing. Investiture, matter, and energy are all the same thing in the cosmere. So, just like energy and matter are the same thing here. So, yes, everything's made of Investiture, in the same way that everything's made of energy in our world. Does that make sense?

Aurimus

So, what about what spren are made of in the Cognitive Realm? Is that just Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

So, yeah, I'll dig more into that. I'm gonna go with Investiture for now, but I could change that as I move along. What I'm kind of debating is, is there a separate Cognitive state, and I don't think so. So I'm gonna go with Investiture for now.

Aurimus

How about Connection?

Brandon Sanderson

Connection is, like, the equivalent of a quantum connection in our world, so it's more like a force than something comprised of something. The question is like, "What is gravity comprised of?" And then you start asking weird questions.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

He doesn't say it's not made of investiture. And many of the traits that are stored by feruchemy are not made of investiture. Heat isn't investiture. When you store your body's heat, you convert that heat into investiture, then convert that investiture into heat when you tap it.

[Primeival Chaos]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

He doesn't say it's not made of investiture. And many of the traits that are stored by feruchemy are not made of investiture. Heat isn't investiture. When you store your body's heat, you convert that heat into investiture, then convert that investiture into heat when you tap it.

But he did say that Investiture, energy, and matter are the same

[NameIess]

17 minutes ago, Primeval Chaos said:

But he did say that Investiture, energy, and matter are the same

They're different forms of the same thing. Just like in real life where we have matter and energy, in the Cosmere we have Investiture, matter and energy, which can be converted between each other. That's what magic systems do, often enough. They convert investiture into energy or matter.

[CameronUluvara]

There are far too many arguments going on. We don't know enough about Investiture/Connection/Identity. Original question--can we all agree that aluminum is probably not the Adonalsium metal? 

[NameIess]

20 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

There are far too many arguments going on. We don't know enough about Investiture/Connection/Identity. Original question--can we all agree that aluminum is probably not the Adonalsium metal? 

Yes.

[Stormblessed0421]

Sorry to derail back into earlier arguments, but I don’t think it’s as simple as “is aluminum anti-investiture or is it just inert?” because of things like Duralumin. That essentially does the opposite of Aluminum, taking all your investiture and exploding it off like a catalyst rather than deleting it.

Overall, I don’t think this is a discussion that can be settled until we know more.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Stormblessed0421 said:

Sorry to derail back into earlier arguments, but I don’t think it’s as simple as “is aluminum anti-investiture or is it just inert?” because of things like Duralumin. That essentially does the opposite of Aluminum, taking all your investiture and exploding it off like a catalyst rather than deleting it.

Overall, I don’t think this is a discussion that can be settled until we know more.

That comes back to the A-Aluminum vs Regular aluminum dichotomy

Edited April 16, 2022 by Frustration

[CameronUluvara]

Dichotomy?

[therunner]

Not pretending to speak for @Frustration , but I think what he means that we need to distinguish properties of 'Aluminum as metal on its own' vs 'Aluminum's function within metallic arts'.

The contrast between A-Duralumin and A-Aluminum is the same as between A-Nicrosil and A-Chromium, one boosts the other diminishes (and also broadly similar to other pairings, like Zinc and Brass), so not out of ordinary for Allomancy. So from that perspective Aluminum's role within Allomancy is not necessarily 'surprising'.

What is interesting is that Aluminum seemingly resists any and every expression of Investiture in Cosmere on itself and interferes with others. It resists Shardblades, Nightblood (to some extent), it cannot be Forged or Soulcasted, it blocks leaking of Investiture (can be used to take liquid from Perpendicularity) and can interfere with Connection (application in Fabrials). For that it is important to note that some (but not all, see duralumin) alloys of Aluminum have similar properties (the 'aluminum' bullets in Era 2 are not pure aluminum). However at the same time it is viable within Feruchemy and Hemalurgy, which goes against these principles.

Then there are two questions (from my perspective)

1. Why does Aluminum have this property of resisting Investiture acting on itself and why it interferes with Connection (if that is what it is), which is independent of any magic system.
2. How (despite number 1) can be Aluminum used in Feruchemy when the metalminds become invested when storing? (potentially also how can it be used in Hemalurgy, but it is possible there it only removes the powers and does not become invested)

[CameronUluvara]

7 hours ago, therunner said:

Not pretending to speak for @Frustration , but I think what he means that we need to distinguish properties of 'Aluminum as metal on its own' vs 'Aluminum's function within metallic arts'.

The contrast between A-Duralumin and A-Aluminum is the same as between A-Nicrosil and A-Chromium, one boosts the other diminishes (and also broadly similar to other pairings, like Zinc and Brass), so not out of ordinary for Allomancy. So from that perspective Aluminum's role within Allomancy is not necessarily 'surprising'.

What is interesting is that Aluminum seemingly resists any and every expression of Investiture in Cosmere on itself and interferes with others. It resists Shardblades, Nightblood (to some extent), it cannot be Forged or Soulcasted, it blocks leaking of Investiture (can be used to take liquid from Perpendicularity) and can interfere with Connection (application in Fabrials). For that it is important to note that some (but not all, see duralumin) alloys of Aluminum have similar properties (the 'aluminum' bullets in Era 2 are not pure aluminum). However at the same time it is viable within Feruchemy and Hemalurgy, which goes against these principles.

Then there are two questions (from my perspective)

1. Why does Aluminum have this property of resisting Investiture acting on itself and why it interferes with Connection (if that is what it is), which is independent of any magic system.
2. How (despite number 1) can be Aluminum used in Feruchemy when the metalminds become invested when storing? (potentially also how can it be used in Hemalurgy, but it is possible there it only removes the powers and does not become invested)

Presumably, since Ruin/Preservation created Scadrial, they also created this Aluminum. Scadrial aluminum may be different from aluminum on other worlds, or an alloy with only a tiny bit of aluminum.

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, CameronUluvara said:

Presumably, since Ruin/Preservation created Scadrial, they also created this Aluminum. Scadrial aluminum may be different from aluminum on other worlds, or an alloy with only a tiny bit of aluminum.

If that was true, then metallurgists would have discovered real aluminum, and Scadrian aluminum likely wouldn't have blocked investiture.

[CameronUluvara]

24 minutes ago, Nameless said:

If that was true, then metallurgists would have discovered real aluminum, and Scadrian aluminum likely wouldn't have blocked investiture.

No? Not if they created it differently? The point is that Aluminum acts differently on Scadrial (it's part of the magic system). Scadrial was created differently (by Ruin/Preservation instead of Adonalsium). These could be related.

[NameIess]

27 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

No? Not if they created it differently? The point is that Aluminum acts differently on Scadrial (it's part of the magic system). Scadrial was created differently (by Ruin/Preservation instead of Adonalsium). These could be related.

I doubt it. That seems like a silly plot point, and one that's unnecessary. Like, what's an easier assumption: That Preservation and Ruin specifically created aluminum differently for the sole purpose of including it in their magic system, or that aluminum can function in magic systems on its own?

[CameronUluvara]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

I doubt it. That seems like a silly plot point, and one that's unnecessary. Like, what's an easier assumption: That Preservation and Ruin specifically created aluminum differently for the sole purpose of including it in their magic system, or that aluminum can function in magic systems on its own?

Considering that Scadrial is the anomaly of the cosmere, I believe it’s easier to assume that Ruin/Preservation created a different type of Aluminum.

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

Considering that Scadrial is the anomaly of the cosmere, I believe it’s easier to assume that Ruin/Preservation created a different type of Aluminum.

Scadrial is an anomaly? Do you mean that it was created by shards?

[CameronUluvara]

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Scadrial is an anomaly? Do you mean that it was created by shards?

An aluminum anomaly. And yes, that its creation was also unusual.

[NameIess]

Just now, CameronUluvara said:

An aluminum anomaly. And yes, that its creation was also unusual.

Aluminum functioning in the metallic arts isn't a complete anomaly. It works in fabrials too. feruchemy is the only thing that really stands out. And as for its creation, it's implied in RoW that Nalthis wasn't created by Adonalsium either.

[therunner]

21 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

Considering that Scadrial is the anomaly of the cosmere, I believe it’s easier to assume that Ruin/Preservation created a different type of Aluminum.

As aluminum is an element you cannot have a different type of it, unless some weird spiritual shenanigans are involved. Additionally, Ghostbloods are aware of what aluminum does and employ it on Roshar. There is no hint that aluminum on Roshar acts differently than what would they expect (since they are mainly Scadrial adjacent organization).
 

[CameronUluvara]

16 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Aluminum functioning in the metallic arts isn't a complete anomaly. It works in fabrials too. feruchemy is the only thing that really stands out. And as for its creation, it's implied in RoW that Nalthis wasn't created by Adonalsium either.

It works in fabrials by making them not work!!

In Dawshard: Rushu "It is interfering with the conjoined rubies in a fascinating way...Aluminum is interfering with the mechanism, making the conjoinment uneven.

Huio: "This aluminum has fascinating properties; I believe the captive spren are reacting to its presence, almost like prey react to a predator. When I touch this foil to the stone, they push to the other side of their confines. I hypothesis that the aluminum interferes with their ability to sense not only my thoughts of them, but the thoughts of their conjoined half."  

Is that not consistent with the properties of Aluminum demonstrated everywhere else in the Cosmere? Can we not say that there is a standard reaction to aluminum, differed very very slightly on Scadrial?

Also, what does RoW say about Nalthis?

Edited April 17, 2022 by CameronUluvara

[NameIess]

11 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

It works in fabrials by making them not work!!

In Dawshard: Rushu "It is interfering with the conjoined rubies in a fascinating way...Aluminum is interfering with the mechanism, making the conjoinment uneven.

Huio: "This aluminum has fascinating properties; I believe the captive spren are reacting to its presence, almost like prey react to a predator. When I touch this foil to the stone, they push to the other side of their confines. I hypothesis that the aluminum interferes with their ability to sense not only my thoughts of them, but the thoughts of their conjoined half."  

Is that not consistent with the properties of Aluminum demonstrated everywhere else in the Cosmere? Can we not say that there is a standard reaction to aluminum, differed slightly on Scadrial?

Okay. we don't see aluminum as a part of any magic systems besides Scadrial. But I don't think the solution is assuming that Scadrian aluminum is different from all aluminum in the Cosmere. Offworld metals are supposed to work for allomancers, and that should logically include aluminum.

Edit- Zahel was talking about fossils, and he said that where he comes from, Nalthis, doesn't have any, as it's too young. Meaning it's less than around 10,000 years old.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Nameless

[CameronUluvara]

After a deep dive through the arcanum, I believe these disagreements are caused by faulty understanding of the metallic arts. I have now learned that the metals are not actually Invested by the arts. They are more like strainers. Allomancers draw on Investiture through the metals, which determines what effect the Investiture has. Same with Feruchemists--they do not Invest the metal. Having Feruchemical power is like having a door to your own personal vault of Investiture that you fill and empty; the metal is the key that determines what effect the investiture that you give up and take back has. They merely channel an already existing connection to the spiritual realm. All of aluminum's effects in the metallic arts now make perfect sense. 

Now, my original theory of an anti-god metal, which was thought to be derailed because aluminum could be Invested on Scadrial, is back on track. Aluminum blocks Investiture, destroys Investiture, can temporarily change Connection/Identity to remove the ability to access Investiture, and do lots of fun anti-Investiture things.