theory Aluminum theory

[Wandering Shade]

@CameronUluvara I'm getting a serious case of confirmation bias from you here.

 

Your theory was sensible and cool, but it had flaws. When those flaws are pointed out, you point to the evidence you have for your theory. That's good.
But when people bring up evidence which counters yours and proves your theory wrong, you stick to your guns and refuse to have your opinion swayed by new evidence, instead looking for more evidence which backs you up while ignoring the evidence that people bring to you.

Yes, metals in the Metallic Arts are keys. But, all of the evidence you bring up which talks about the metals not being invested and instead drawing the power from the Spiritual Realm talks about Allomancy only. Meanwhile, there is loads of WoBs which talk about how Hemalurgy and Feruchemy actually Invest the metals.

But all of this is a mute point when it comes to your original theory on aluminum. Godmetals cant be made via Soulcasting, the Shard has to make it themselves. Aluminum can be made with Soulcasting, but then because of its powers to resist investiture (or counter it, whatever) it can't then be Soulcast into something else.

[CameronUluvara she/her]

On 4/18/2022 at 6:35 PM, Wandering Shade said:

@CameronUluvara I'm getting a serious case of confirmation bias from you here.

 

Your theory was sensible and cool, but it had flaws. When those flaws are pointed out, you point to the evidence you have for your theory. That's good.
But when people bring up evidence which counters yours and proves your theory wrong, you stick to your guns and refuse to have your opinion swayed by new evidence, instead looking for more evidence which backs you up while ignoring the evidence that people bring to you.

Yes, metals in the Metallic Arts are keys. But, all of the evidence you bring up which talks about the metals not being invested and instead drawing the power from the Spiritual Realm talks about Allomancy only. Meanwhile, there is loads of WoBs which talk about how Hemalurgy and Feruchemy actually Invest the metals.

But all of this is a mute point when it comes to your original theory on aluminum. Godmetals cant be made via Soulcasting, the Shard has to make it themselves. Aluminum can be made with Soulcasting, but then because of its powers to resist investiture (or counter it, whatever) it can't then be Soulcast into something else.

You've got good points. And I am aware of this theory's flaws, but no, not all of the evidence is just about allomancy. Besides those specific Wobs that talk about feruchemy, not allomancy, there are others that compare the metallic arts (yes, all of the metallic arts) to AonDor. He specifically compares it to how Aons use a pattern to draw Investiture from an outside source. Yes, there are more WoBs that talk about metalminds being Invested, specifically about how they resist being manipulated by other forms of Investiture, but my argument there is that Investiture passes through metalminds often enough that they are resistant to other forms of Investiture, like how a gemstone that's held stormlight for so long might crack when filled with voidlight. But of course, you've already heard these arguments in full. I'm acknowledging the contradictions in feruchemy and aluminum (that this theory solves). I'd happily accept an alternate theory with less flaws, but I can't accept any of your theories because it leaves this huge contradiction out there--Aluminum resists Investiture. Aluminum is easily Invested. The information of the status quo is incomplete. That's what I'm trying to do with my theory: resolve that conflict. I'd accept another theory, but I can't accept the status quo because it has more flaws than my theory. As for your last point about the Shard metals, (please don't say God metals, it's confusing since this thread started by talking about aluminum as a potential Adonalsium-God metal) I don't quite understand what it has to do with this theory.

Edited April 22, 2022 by CameronUluvara

[Frustration he/him]

6 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

You've got good points. And I am aware of this theory's flaws, but no, not all of the evidence is just about allomancy. Besides those specific Wobs that talk about feruchemy, not allomancy

Will you share those?

10 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

there are others that compare the metallic arts (yes, all of the metallic arts) to AonDor. He specifically compares it to how Aons use a pattern to draw Investiture from an outside source.

You mean this one that says Allomancy draws from an outside source but Feruchemy is powered by the feruchemist?

Spoiler

mooglefrooglian

You've said previously that the molecular structure of metals serve to act sort of like the Aons in AonDor. Why, then, can mists power Allomancy? Shouldn't the metals themselves be the things causing the powers? And if metals don't cause the effect, how can a non-Feruchemist burn a metalmind that has been 'unlocked' through identity tricks and get a boost of an attribute without Feruchemist sDNA?

Brandon Sanderson

I was trying to figure out how to answer this, and then I realized while driving to get a hair cut that you were regarding this wrong in a fundamental way. Remember, the source of power for Allomancy is EXTERNAL while the source for Feruchemy is INTERNAL. This is a fundamental difference discussed in the series.

When you burn metals, you're drawing power from another place. When you tap a metalmind, you are drawing power that the person has created--a battery developed by themselves, so to speak.

So I think that's going to answer the source of your confusion.

/r/books AMA 2015 (March 12, 2015)

Or this one that ties Allomancy to AonDor while also saying that Feruchemy stores it's charge in the metal?

Spoiler

Lyndsey Luther

Ok, last question. It was really difficult coming up with three questions that haven’t been asked already...

Brandon Sanderson

OK... you’re not going to ask me the “what would you ask me” question?

Lyndsey Luther

Not quite...

Brandon Sanderson

OK good, because I hate that one! (laughs)

Lyndsey Luther

My question is if there’s anything that you’ve never been asked that you would like to talk about?

Brandon Sanderson

Oooooh, ok. Hm. That one is so hard! Every time people ask me something like this... What have I never been asked that people should be asking, is basically what the question is? Something that the fans have just missed... They pick up on so much, that it’s hard... I do wonder if, you know… all the magic systems [in my books] are connected and work on some basic fundamental principles, and a lot of people haven’t been asking questions about this. One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between AonDor [the magic system from Elantris] and Allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system].

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, Compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with Feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a Feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the Feruchemical charge overwrites the Allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel Feruchemy with Allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels Allomancy, to fuel Feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an Allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of Feruchemical power. That’s why Compounding is so powerful.

Open The Fridge Interview (Nov. 16, 2011)

 

14 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

es, there are more WoBs that talk about metalminds being Invested, specifically about how they resist being manipulated by other forms of Investiture, but my argument there is that Investiture passes through metalminds often enough that they are resistant to other forms of Investiture, like how a gemstone that's held stormlight for so long might crack when filled with voidlight.

Where are you getting that from? I don't recall gems ever cracking by changing the light that is in them.

15 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

I'm acknowledging the contradictions in feruchemy and aluminum (that this theory solves). I'd happily accept an alternate theory with less flaws, but I can't accept any of your theories because it leaves this huge contradiction out there--Aluminum resists Investiture. Aluminum is easily Invested.

There is a simple answer, you cannot tap aluminum any identity stored in aluminum is gone forever.

16 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

As for your last point about the Shard metals, (please don't say say God metals, it's confusing since this thread started by talking about aluminum as a potential Adonalsium-God metal) I don't quite understand what it has to do with this theory.

Both terms are interchangeable.

[Fezzik]

On 4/19/2022 at 10:57 AM, CameronUluvara said:

Aluminum is easily Invested. 

Where are you getting this idea?

Spoiler

yulerule
Did you make aluminum resistant to Allomancy so that you could do the tinfoil hats?

Brandon Sanderson
No, but once I did, I was like that’s a cool idea. I made aluminum resistant to it because I wanted something to be magically inert in the Cosmere. It was a happy accident.

Spoiler

Paleo
Does aluminum actually store Identity or is it more like a sink so you just dump it in and it poofs away.

Brandon Sanderson
I'll RAFO that for now. Sorry, I want to get into that eventually.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13235

These WoBs are from a couple years ago, but they are pretty definitive.

Quote

On 4/19/2022 at 11:15 AM, Frustration said:

There is a simple answer, you cannot tap aluminum any identity stored in aluminum is gone forever.

 

Were these what you were referring to?

[CameronUluvara she/her]

Fezzik, the point is that it’s conflicting. This whole discussion is about rationalizing aluminum’s nature with its feruchemical ability to be invested. 
By the way, Frustration, your solution is that the metal that resists Investiture can be Invested but not un-Invested? That makes more sense to you? And how does that not just support the anti-god metal theory, if the Investiture is gone forever?

[Fezzik]

I don't think there is a conflict, I don't think aluminum can be invested. Period. Feruchemical or otherwise.

[CameronUluvara she/her]

Okay…that’s good. Are you fond of my theory then, or do you have one of your own?

[NameIess]

8 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

Okay…that’s good. Are you fond of my theory then, or do you have one of your own?

Aluminum can't be a god metal, because god metals cannot be soulcast, and aluminum can be. 

[CameronUluvara she/her]

There’s a long argument there, but never mind. Forget the god-metal thing. It’ll never be proven or disprove with what we have. The feruchemical theory concerns me now. 

Edited April 22, 2022 by CameronUluvara

[NameIess]

8 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

There’s a long argument there, but never mind. Forget the god-metal thing. It’ll never be proven or disprove with what we have. The feruchemical theory concerns me now. 

I'm of the mind that either aluminum acts as a dump for investiture in that you put identity in and it dissipates or something, or that aluminum can be invested, but that investiture has no effect on it.

[Frustration he/him]

25 minutes ago, Fezzik said:

Were these what you were referring to?

Yes, my personal hunch is that aluminum cannot be tapped

18 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

By the way, Frustration, your solution is that the metal that resists Investiture can be Invested but not un-Invested? That makes more sense to you?

No, it destroys the identity that one would attempt to store within it.

21 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

And how does that not just support the anti-god metal theory, if the Investiture is gone forever?

Because as I have said before if it has the name of a regular metal it cannot be a shardmetal because shardmetals are regular metals that have been so permiated with investiture they change.

Spoiler

Viper (paraphrased)

So in cosmere, does physics work the same way in the Physical Realm as it does in our world? Specifically, particle physics; and are atoms made up of protons and neutrons and electrons, and is light photons, etc?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Viper (paraphrased)

So what's at the core of an atom of atium? Ate-teum? Also how do you pronounce it? At-teum?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. And the matter is just normal matter, but it's wrapped in the Spiritual. The Spiritual DNA [or something] is what makes it magical.

A Memory of Light Milford Signing (Feb. 16, 2013)

So Atium is just platnium that Ruin's investiture has invested

In the same vein Harmonium an alkali metal that Harmony has invested

Spoiler

Phantine

[Question unknown]

Brandon Sanderson

So, don't consider [harmonium] magically-enhanced cesium. Consider it a magically-created alkali metal. It's going to share attributes with the alkali metals, and generally follows the trends of the others, save for its melting point.

But in answer to your real question, atium would be a platinum group metal. (And platinum itself was my model.)

General Reddit 2017 (Jan. 2, 2017)

Therefore Aluminum cannot be an anti-shard metal because it is called aluminum.

[CameronUluvara she/her]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No, it destroys the identity that one would attempt to store within it.

…sounds like anti-investiture to me... 

Anyway, we'll probably get a lot of answers in Lost Metal.

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, CameronUluvara said:

…sounds like anti-investiture to me... 

Anyway, we'll probably get a lot of answers in Lost Metal.

Anti-investiture is keyed to a specific intent, it's much more similar to the Hemalurgic use of aluminum.

[Duxredux he/him]

I'll throw a couple thoughts out here. I also had the theory a while back that aluminum was possibly Adonalsium's godmetal, but I used different sources for that theory. It probably isn't, but he's RAFO'd that exact question in 2018. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/475/#e15055

Where I came to the conclusion that Aluminum might have been a godmetal came not from the mechanics but from aspects of books and WoBs.

1. I need to reread them, but I think Emperor's Soul and Stormlight both have legends of aluminum falling from the sky, in Roshar it was rumored to be resistant to Shardblades (confirmed aluminum, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/176/#e8489). I checked, and I don't think Aluminum is a common substance in meteorites. Where did it come from then?
2. Aluminum was not considered one of the 16 metals in Preservation's plan to reveal Atium mistings https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35/#e2524

Reasons I have for thinking that aluminum isn't Adonalsium's godmetal:

1. It's an easy soulcasting product and can be conventionally produced in modern era. It can be formed naturally without a perpendicularity, which seems telling (unless the Ashmounts were a perpendiularity of Adonalsium which seems really, really unlikely). 
2. We have this WoB that says Ralkalest was probably a Yolish term. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/472/#e14900 I think that implies that it was around pre-shattering? That doesn't discount it being Adonalsiumium, but there's no similarity at all between the terms Ralkalest and Adonalsium, and there probably would be if it was the godmetal.