Alternate theory to cure Ishar/Stormlight 5 plot

[CameronUluvara she/her]

So while I was writing my fanfic The King Is Dead, I ran into a couple of problems with moving off-world and thus a couple of questions.

Roshar has big magic, and the more splintered the soul, the more full of magic it becomes. This is regulated by spren and ideals. Without a spren, the levels of magic could get nearly limitless if you have enough stormlight, right? Spren keep Rosharans from getting overpowered. This is often associated with the Honorblades; remember what Syl was saying about Szeth back in WoR? So the idea is, Ishar is so dangerous/powerful because he is a 'bondsmith unchained.' He has no spren, and now that Honor is dead, absolutely nothing is checking his power.

Going into Stormlight 5, The Stormfather said that Ishar might regain a moment of sanity if a Radiant swore an Ideal in his presence because of the connection it creates with the Spiritual Realm, supposedly setting up a scenario where a Radiant swears an Ideal around Ishar. That's got to be misdirection--when does Brandon ever tell us what's going to happen and it actually happens? Alternatively, fix two problems with one Ideal...what if Ishar swears an Ideal and becomes a Radiant? It would heal his mind (probably? at least for a time) and more importantly get his powers back under control. Make him a bondsmith chained again. Being the Bondsmith herald, it makes the most sense for him to become the third Bondsmith.

"No!" you say. "He's killed spren! No spren would ever bond him!" Well what in Damnation was RoW all about? The Sibling rejected Navani many times because of her enslavement of spren in fabriels. They worked it out. What if all that was a set up for this larger leap of Ishar bonding the Nightwatcher? (Perhaps Cultivation even sends the Nightwatcher to bond Ishar, thinking it will help him help Dalinar help Roshar.) After all, non-honorspren have very different ideals of morality than what we're used too. The ashspren, for example. This could also tie into the 'heralds joining their orders'  thing that Nalan did. That storyline kind of went away/remained unexplained. That could have been setting precedent for heralds becoming Radiants. This all becomes even more poetic considering Ishar founded the orders and put a check on Radiant's powers in the first place.

Recently someone was talking about how the terms of the contest of champions makes no sense for Odium, because he doesn't get much of a win either way. But Taravangian saw a possibility where he could win, and I'm sure he doesn't count that measly spoil as winning when's he's always set his sights on all of Roshar, and his ambition only grew when he took up the Shard. What stuck out to me is that he must stick to the contract because if he breaks his word, he exposes himself and Cultivation will be able to kill him. Seems to me in order to get what he wants, he has to break his word. The out is Cultivation not killing him. (remember, Honor is not an option here) Theory: Ishar bonds the Nightwatcher, and wily, ever-changing ole Ishar creates a Connection to Cultivation, sucks in all her power, and ascends to Cultivation. Then watches Taraodium break the contest of champions rules, and 1: madness, does nothing 2: struck a deal with Odium, does nothing 3: has own motives, such has wanting the planet to himself, does nothing, allows Odium to escape. Todium flees Roshar, enters as Trell on Scadrial, Cultivation/Ishar  (Cultishar?) becomes the main villain for the back half of Stormlight.

I'd love to be right but tell me how I'm wrong.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

Going into Stormlight 5, The Stormfather said that Ishar might regain a moment of sanity if a Radiant swore an Ideal in his presence because of the connection it creates with the Spiritual Realm, supposedly setting up a scenario where a Radiant swears an Ideal around Ishar.

It was Ishar that said that, not the Stormfather.

4 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

It would heal his mind (probably? at least for a time) and more importantly get his powers back under control. Make him a bondsmith chained again. Being the Bondsmith herald, it makes the most sense for him to become the third Bondsmith.

All Bondsmiths are unchained right now, and as long as he used his blade the Oaths wouldn't bind him.

[NameIess]

9 hours ago, CameronUluvara said:

Going into Stormlight 5, The Stormfather said that Ishar might regain a moment of sanity if a Radiant swore an Ideal in his presence because of the connection it creates with the Spiritual Realm, supposedly setting up a scenario where a Radiant swears an Ideal around Ishar. That's got to be misdirection--when does Brandon ever tell us what's going to happen and it actually happens? Alternatively, fix two problems with one Ideal...what if Ishar swears an Ideal and becomes a Radiant? It would heal his mind (probably? at least for a time) and more importantly get his powers back under control. Make him a bondsmith chained again. Being the Bondsmith herald, it makes the most sense for him to become the third Bondsmith.

The thing we have to consider is that Nale is still insane, and he’s a fifth ideal Skybreaker. So I don’t think that bonding a Soren would necessarily grant a herald sanity. It might not even grant them temporary sanity. 

[CameronUluvara she/her]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

It was Ishar that said that, not the Stormfather.

All Bondsmiths are unchained right now, and as long as he used his blade the Oaths wouldn't bind him.

Don't make me get my RoW copy. DONT MAKE ME--Fine, the theory has been proposed that swearing an Ideal near him would help. But why would he not be bound by oaths if he was still using the blade? I haven't read anything like that. When Syl talked about Szeth in WoR, she said he was dangerous because "no spren guides him." But bridge 4 held, carried, and occasionally used Jezrian's honorblade without it negating their oaths.

Are all Bondsmiths unchained? Assuming your argument is 'honor is dead, so he no longer applies his rules to anyone' then by that reasoning all Radiants would be unchained. This lack of regulation is specific to the Stormfather. Therefore, I would propose that not all Bondsmiths are unchained right now: Ishar is because he uses the honorblade instead of being granted power by a Nahel bond, and Dalinar is because the Shard who's spren he bonded is dead. Cultivation remains very much alive and able to apply her rules to Roshar and the Nightwatcher's bond.

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

The thing we have to consider is that Nale is still insane, and he’s a fifth ideal Skybreaker. So I don’t think that bonding a Soren would necessarily grant a herald sanity. It might not even grant them temporary sanity. 

First, Nalan is insane, but he's not as insane as the rest, and that very well may be because of his Nahel bond. Secondly, though sanity may be the goal, it's not really necessary to this theory. It's just as possible if Ishar is mad. The purpose of the Ideal has been stated as healing his mind, but it's so much more useful (and probable) for the Ideal to chain his power again.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, CameronUluvara said:

First, Nalan is insane, but he's not as insane as the rest, and that very well may be because of his Nahel bond. Secondly, though sanity may be the goal, it's not really necessary to this theory. It's just as possible if Ishar is mad. The purpose of the Ideal has been stated as healing his mind, but it's so much more useful (and probable) for the Ideal to chain his power again.

Nale is just as insane as the other heralds. He is completely emotionless, and refused to admit that the voidbbringers had returned until forced. Just because he can fight and pretend to be sane doesn't make him sane.

 

1 hour ago, CameronUluvara said:

Don't make me get my RoW copy. DONT MAKE ME--Fine, the theory has been proposed that swearing an Ideal near him would help. But why would he not be bound by oaths if he was still using the blade? I haven't read anything like that. When Syl talked about Szeth in WoR, she said he was dangerous because "no spren guides him." But bridge 4 held, carried, and occasionally used Jezrian's honorblade without it negating their oaths.

Are all Bondsmiths unchained? Assuming your argument is 'honor is dead, so he no longer applies his rules to anyone' then by that reasoning all Radiants would be unchained. This lack of regulation is specific to the Stormfather. Therefore, I would propose that not all Bondsmiths are unchained right now: Ishar is because he uses the honorblade instead of being granted power by a Nahel bond, and Dalinar is because the Shard who's spren he bonded is dead. Cultivation remains very much alive and able to apply her rules to Roshar and the Nightwatcher's bond.

All Radiants are unchained, or at least I think they are. The consequences just aren't as readily apparent as they are for a Bondsmith.

Regardless, bonding Ishar to the Nightwatcher wouldn't change his powers. He'd still have his unchained abilities as given by the Honorblade, and even if the bond did chain his powers, he could just break it.

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, CameronUluvara said:

Don't make me get my RoW copy. DONT MAKE ME--Fine, the theory has been proposed that swearing an Ideal near him would help. But why would he not be bound by oaths if he was still using the blade? I haven't read anything like that. When Syl talked about Szeth in WoR, she said he was dangerous because "no spren guides him." But bridge 4 held, carried, and occasionally used Jezrian's honorblade without it negating their oaths.

Spren can't regulate Honorblades, so it wouldn't matter even if he did swear oathes.

6 hours ago, CameronUluvara said:

Are all Bondsmiths unchained? Assuming your argument is 'honor is dead, so he no longer applies his rules to anyone' then by that reasoning all Radiants would be unchained. This lack of regulation is specific to the Stormfather. Therefore, I would propose that not all Bondsmiths are unchained right now: Ishar is because he uses the honorblade instead of being granted power by a Nahel bond, and Dalinar is because the Shard who's spren he bonded is dead. Cultivation remains very much alive and able to apply her rules to Roshar and the Nightwatcher's bond.

All Radiants are unchained now, Bondsmiths just had more restrictions on them than the other orders so the change is more dramatic.

[Master Silver]

What I find interesting is when Odium (the old Odium) says, "the power will eventually bind you. There has been a lot of talk about who will become Honor, Kaladin or Dalinar or someone else. RoW, as others have stated seems to be setting up Kaladin for the role. But it is weird because Kaladin looks up to Dalinar and Dalinar in a way looks up to Kaladin. Some would argue that the three most honorable people on Roshar are Seth, Kaladin, and Dalinar. Someone has to replace Jezrein. Another needs to take up Honor. And likely other Heralds will become casualties. Does anyone have an idea of how division works. Others have postulated that the their is a connection between the Heralds and the unmade. What if the reason the hearlads are crazy is because Odium corrupted the spren the originally bonded. And that connection to the unmade causes them to become the opposite of their divine attributes, but while Honor was alive and able to fuel them directly it kept the crazy at bay. Perhaps the surge of division (whatever it is) can separate Ishar from his crazy. If that makes sense.

[CameronUluvara she/her]

Heralds aren’t bonded to spren, they predated the unmade, and they’re crazy because of torture and time.

[Master Silver]

53 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

Heralds aren’t bonded to spren, they predated the unmade, and they’re crazy because of torture and time.

I actually don't think that is correct. The heralds were gifted with super human abilities. Almost all people in RL would break after a few hours of torture, especially the type of torture the heralds are going through. Here is an excellent post on the theory of the connection between heralds and the unmade. 

Also, yes the heralds came before the unmade, but we know the unmade were made, and then unmade. What if the unmade were originally the embodiment of the divine attributes attributed to the heralds. A weapon of Honor and Cultivation that Odium turned against them. 

[CameronUluvara she/her]

I've read that, but what I'm saying is that the Heralds never bonded spren. There is never an indication that they bonded either spren or 'Made'. They got their powers from the blades, gifted directly from Honor. Another flaw in this theory is that there are nine unmade. If Honor (with Cultivation) had created them, there would be ten. That's his number: ten heralds, ten orders, ten notes on a scale, ten honorblades. There are nine unmade (and nine types of Fused). They're of Odium. Numbers have a lot of significance when talking about Shards. Why, if the 'Made' were manifestations of divine attributes of the Heralds, would there not be ten? Also, the Unmade really don't have a corresponding order of Knight Radiant. That WoB is being misconstrued. Some, like Re-Shephir, appear similar, but most are not so clearly inverted. Brandon can definitely say that none of them relate to Bondsmiths because Odium/singers don't believe in Adhesion and all that.

Also, both the Heralds and the Fused (backed by the Stormfather) have said that the effects of time are the main reason for their insanity. 

I can't go further with either of these arguments (Ishar/Cultivation and Heralds/Unmade) without my RoW copy. I can get back to all of you with further evidence and quotes when I get it back.

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

On 4/7/2022 at 9:55 AM, CameronUluvara said:

Cultivation remains very much alive and able to apply her rules to Roshar and the Nightwatcher's bond.

Also the Sibling.

On 4/7/2022 at 4:48 PM, Frustration said:

Spren can't regulate Honorblades, so it wouldn't matter even if he did swear oathes.

All Radiants are unchained now, Bondsmiths just had more restrictions on them than the other orders so the change is more dramatic.

Arguably, radiants still are chained, because they have spren to restrict them. Dalinar is unchained because the stormfather is not restricting access and/or is the only spren completely, totally, 100% of Honor and is most affected by his death. All of the other orders were at least partially made by Cultivation, as well as the other two bondsmith spren.

[Darth_Hel]

Just a question, since it came up here. Are we sure the "Honor Blades" are actually a gift directly from Honor, or at least solely from him? The Oathpact seems to bind Odium as well, and they had surgebinding on Ashyn before seemingly meeting Honor. Could the surges have been granted to Roshar from Odium, and the "Honor Blades" more of a War Blade mixing Odium and Honor's powers?

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Darth_Hel said:

Just a question, since it came up here. Are we sure the "Honor Blades" are actually a gift directly from Honor, or at least solely from him? The Oathpact seems to bind Odium as well, and they had surgebinding on Ashyn before seemingly meeting Honor. Could the surges have been granted to Roshar from Odium, and the "Honor Blades" more of a War Blade mixing Odium and Honor's powers?

Yes they are purely Honor.

[Master Silver]

So on the topic of the Heralds existing before and not being bonded to spren, that is true. Nevertheless, there could have been a connection. As for why there are only 9 unmade, what if the Sibling was the tenth. That would explain why there are nine, and it would explain his name. The sibling is likely more powerful than the Made, which are now unmade. As for them not resembling the divine attributes, well they would not be a warped version of what they once were. There does not need to be a bond for their to be a connection or association. Yes the Heralds are powered by the blades, but the way the cognitive realm works is that sometimes the ideas of humans take shape. So that there was a spren beast, maybe a lion, that inspired bravery and nobility and often accompanied Talin or Jezrien to the battle field makes sense to me. The heralds cam first. Then after time, there began to be an association between those heralds and certain traits, this association led to something being made in the cognitive realm. Eventually, a connection (not bond) was formed, the Odium unmade them and sent them after the heralds causing the same sort of unmaking in the Heralds (their madness has them become the opposite of their cognitive selves, the brave become cowards, the decisive indecisive, etc.). 

[CameronUluvara she/her]

1 hour ago, Master Silver said:

So on the topic of the Heralds existing before and not being bonded to spren, that is true. Nevertheless, there could have been a connection. As for why there are only 9 unmade, what if the Sibling was the tenth. That would explain why there are nine, and it would explain his name. The sibling is likely more powerful than the Made, which are now unmade. As for them not resembling the divine attributes, well they would not be a warped version of what they once were. There does not need to be a bond for their to be a connection or association. Yes the Heralds are powered by the blades, but the way the cognitive realm works is that sometimes the ideas of humans take shape. So that there was a spren beast, maybe a lion, that inspired bravery and nobility and often accompanied Talin or Jezrien to the battle field makes sense to me. The heralds cam first. Then after time, there began to be an association between those heralds and certain traits, this association led to something being made in the cognitive realm. Eventually, a connection (not bond) was formed, the Odium unmade them and sent them after the heralds causing the same sort of unmaking in the Heralds (their madness has them become the opposite of their cognitive selves, the brave become cowards, the decisive indecisive, etc.). 

I could get behind that. But the Sibling said it was created of Honor and Cultivation, not formed from the thoughts of men. I'm not denying a connection could exist between the Heralds and the Unmade. But right now, these theories' logistics aren't working out.

[cometaryorbit]

Re-Shephir is compared to a twisted creationspren, and she's said to be understood by Lightweavers, so maybe the loose parallel with the nine non-Bondsmith Orders/Heralds is because the Unmade are derived from the Shardplate spren of those Orders?

Do we know if the Unmade existed before the Radiant Orders were founded?