Kaliden = Jesus (son of tanavast theory)

[bmcclure7]

Ok this one is a little crazy but here me out. A lot of importance has been placed has been place on Kaliden being called the son of honor/tanavast some have theorized that this means that he is the biological son or grandson of the vessel of honor but this make little sense unlike the Greek gods shards don't seem to have a body that can impregnate someone . They are much closer to the abrahamic form of  divinity, however there is a abrahamic form of divine sonship.  

 

Now is there anything similar to the incarnation in the cosmere. Yes Avatars appear to function very similar to the biblical incarnation,  How coincidental that we are first introduced to the concept of avatars in stormlight. 

Some other things to consider 

Kaliden is called storm blessed before he become a windrunner implying a pre syl connection to the highstorm.

The storm father seems oddly interested in Kaliden,  he rarely takes to humans other then Dalinar but has communicated several times to Kaliden. 

 

 

What do you think dose these make any sense even in a crazy sort of way. 

Edited March 19, 2022 by bmcclure7

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Ok this one is a little crazy but here me out. A lot of importance has been placed has been place on Kaliden being called the son of honor/tanavast some have theorized that this means that he is the biological son or grandson of the vessel of honor but this make little sense unlike the Greek gods shards don't seem to have a body that can impregnate someone . They are much closer to the abrahamic form of  divinity, however there is a abrahamic form of divine sonship.  

Vessels can have children

Spoiler

Paladin Brewer (paraphrased)

Are Shard Vessels able to have children?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes they are.

Paladin Brewer (paraphrased)

Even Sazed, with his body being a eunuch?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, though technically all of Scadrial are the children of Preservation and Ruin.

Librarypalooza (Feb. 27, 2016)

 

[bmcclure7]

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

Vessels can have children

  Hide contents

Paladin Brewer (paraphrased)

Are Shard Vessels able to have children?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes they are.

Paladin Brewer (paraphrased)

Even Sazed, with his body being a eunuch?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, though technically all of Scadrial are the children of Preservation and Ruin.

Librarypalooza (Feb. 27, 2016)

 

This wob is selfcontadictory.  Unless u think that Preservation and Ruin literally had sex to produce children.  

[Frustration]

Just now, bmcclure7 said:

This wob is selfcontadictory.  Unless u think that Preservation and Ruin literally had sex to produce children.  

Note where is said "Paraphrased"

[NameIess]

7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

This wob is selfcontadictory.  Unless u think that Preservation and Ruin literally had sex to produce children.  

Technically does not mean literally.

[bmcclure7]

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Technically does not mean literally.

Exactly that what I'm saying clearly the wob doesn't mean that shards are capable of making biological children.  

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Exactly that what I'm saying clearly the wob doesn't mean that shards are capable of making biological children.  

If a shard can see their own DNA, they could make biological children for themselves, or at least children that are genetically identical to a biological descendant of them.

[Mat]

17 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

A lot of importance has been placed has been place on Kaliden being called the son of honor/tanavast some have theorized that this means that he is the biological son or grandson of the vessel of honor but this make little sense unlike the Greek gods shards don't seem to have a body that can impregnate someone .

Shards have Vessels, which have physical bodies. The WoB already mentioned answers this more outright, keep in mind that it doesn't specifically relate to Ruin/Preservation. Theoretically Honor and Cultivation could have children. I don't like the theory that Kaladin is a literal descendant of Honor, like, at all, but it's technically possible

17 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Now is there anything similar to the incarnation in the cosmere. Yes Avatars appear to function very similar to the biblical incarnation,  How coincidental that we are first introduced to the concept of avatars in stormlight. 

Are we? I mean, there's the epigraphs about Autonomy but that definitely doesn't relate to Roshar specifically and we don't really know what Avatars do in the cosmere anyway :P.

17 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Kaliden is called storm blessed before he become a windrunner implying a pre syl connection to the highstorm.

You could see it that way, or just see it as a term people called him because he was really talented. Rosharans would see that as a blessing from the storm since the storm has a major significance to the planet and they swear by the Stormfather's name- really what I'm getting at is that I don't think the nickname means he was Connected to the highstorm, just that Rosharans considered him to be favored by the Stormfather.

17 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

The storm father seems oddly interested in Kaliden,  he rarely takes to humans other then Dalinar but has communicated several times to Kaliden. 

Well, Kaladin's the first person to draw interest from an Honorspren in a long time, plus the Honorspren he drew was the Ancient Daughter herself, so yeah I think Honor would be interested in talking to him  Again, this is technically true but I don't think it means he's Connected to Honor in any special way that another Windrunner wouldn't be.

[bmcclure7]

16 hours ago, Nameless said:

If a shard can see their own DNA, they could make biological children for themselves, or at least children that are genetically identical to a biological descendant of them.

Ok fair point

[11thTrueSpren]

So Tanavast is dead, however the time of his death is what would be in question. In the WoB below, Brandon states that the death of the vessel is a “slow burn”, but that is pretty vague. Brandon also states that he is dead “as of the start of The Way of Kings.” So this could be any time between the splintering of Honor all the way to the death of Gavilar, which is approximately 2000 years.

spoilered for length

Spoiler

Wetlander

Did the Splintering happen before the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

I will reveal this as we go. However, be aware that in the past, when a Shard was killed, the person holding it, it is a slow burn to actually kill someone; because power cannot be destroyed. So, what it means to be killed means something a little different in these cases.

Hoser

Did Tanavast survive Honor's splintering?

Brandon Sanderson

Tanavast is dead. Good question. However, that is as of the start of The Way of Kings.

Hoser

So he could have survived the Splintering...

Brandon Sanderson

He could have survived the Splintering.

Hoser

...as a mortal...

Brandon Sanderson

Well, he could have survived for a time, but then he could not have then...

Hoser

...passed away in his sleep...

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

However, what would be interesting to find out is if Tien or Oroden would also be considered a “Son of Tanavast” according to the Stormfather. This would at least rule out if Kaladin is the biological offspring of Tanavast or if Kaladin is the “spiritual embodiment” of Honor and Tanavast that he could be considered the Son of Tanavast from the Stormfather’s perspective. The Stormfather’s perspective will be much wider than a human can perceive since humans can’t see into the cognitive realm without having a Nahel bond. The Stormfather is also melded with the cognitive shadow of Tanavast, which would make things weird when talking about the biological offspring of Tanavast. My thought regarding Kaladin being the Son of Tanavast is that he is the spiritual embodiment of Tanavast as Kaladin has been described by Brandon Sanderson as being “extra aligned” with the intent of Honor.

Spoiler

Nouf

What does it mean that Kaladin is close to Honor, and how did that factor into him staying conscious while every other Windrunner in the tower didn't?

Brandon Sanderson

The nuts and bolts answer is, Kaladin basically was in a place where he could say the next oath, and should have said the next oath, and indeed knew the next oath, and it was on his tongue, and he refused to. So basically he was as close to being the next level of Knights Radiant as a person could humanly get, because everyone considered him ready except himself. He even knew that he was ready, but by saying it, it would require him to give up something that was precious to him, which is his feeling guilty. A precious part of his identity as he saw it. And he would have to relinquish that. That's the bulk of it.

The other bulk of it is, the level to which Kaladin tries to protect, the level to which Kaladin exemplifies the Ideals of the Windrunners, and indeed of the way that Honor would have all Knights Radiant act, is so over the top, in alignment with the way Honor would like it to be, that it could even be considered unhealthy. Remember, Honor didn't always encourage healthy relationships with things like the power, particularly later in his existence. So either way, Kaladin is just kind of extra aligned with that intent, if that makes any sense.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

[Master Silver]

It is things like this that makes me think Kaladin is destined to either ascend (although Odium says Dalinar speaks on behalf of Honor) or take Jezrien's place. This would in a sense allow Dalinar and Kaladin to keep their current relationship. Dalinar as the supreme general and Kaladin as his best Soldier. But then again, in RoW we see Dalinar placing his trust in Kaladin, and I can see Kaladin outgrowing so to speak Dalinar's mentorship. Sorta how Vyn outgrew Kelsier's mentorship.

[Torol Sadeas]

2 hours ago, Master Silver said:

It is things like this that makes me think Kaladin is destined to either ascend (although Odium says Dalinar speaks on behalf of Honor) or take Jezrien's place. This would in a sense allow Dalinar and Kaladin to keep their current relationship. Dalinar as the supreme general and Kaladin as his best Soldier. But then again, in RoW we see Dalinar placing his trust in Kaladin, and I can see Kaladin outgrowing so to speak Dalinar's mentorship. Sorta how Vyn outgrew Kelsier's mentorship.

IF anyone ascends, Kaladin is the obvious choice. Especially after RoW, where there was so much religious faith in him. 

Dont forget that the Windrunner, Jezrien, was leader of the Heralds. I personally think that the Dalinar and Kaladin relationship needs to change. It is still ultimately based on the terrible Vorin caste system. Even from book 1 it was clear to me that Kaladin is the much more natural leader. We saw that in the Battle of the Tower IMO, where he basically took charge of the entire retreat, easily getting Lighteyes to follow his orders. We saw that in the way he took over Bridge Four. We saw that in the way he took over the Wall Guard. We see that in the way humans look up to him in Rhythm of War. I love Dalinar as much as anyone, but a lot of his authority always came from his rank. We saw how he struggled at uniting the Highprinces behind him (granted, that was not an easy task, but neither was what Kal did to Bridge 4). My personal opinion is that over time their positions need to flip, where Dalinar takes on more of a consulting role with Kaladin as the number 1. Dalinar also has a problem with clinging to power, as Sadeas has observed and sometimes exploited in the first two books. This is another reason why he should not be the leader of the Knights Radiant. ( I still love him) It is also a thing of how Kaladin always saw himself as serving his men, similar to how it's described in The Way of Kings (the canon book). 

Edited April 23, 2022 by Torol Sadeas

[bmcclure7]

On 3/19/2022 at 10:32 PM, Matrim's Dice said:

Shards have Vessels, which have physical bodies. The WoB already mentioned answers this more outright, keep in mind that it doesn't specifically relate to Ruin/Preservation. Theoretically Honor and Cultivation could have children. I don't like the theory that Kaladin is a literal descendant of Honor, like, at all, but it's technically possible

Are we? I mean, there's the epigraphs about Autonomy but that definitely doesn't relate to Roshar specifically and we don't really know what Avatars do in the cosmere anyway :P.

You could see it that way, or just see it as a term people called him because he was really talented. Rosharans would see that as a blessing from the storm since the storm has a major significance to the planet and they swear by the Stormfather's name- really what I'm getting at is that I don't think the nickname means he was Connected to the highstorm, just that Rosharans considered him to be favored by the Stormfather.

Well, Kaladin's the first person to draw interest from an Honorspren in a long time, plus the Honorspren he drew was the Ancient Daughter herself, so yeah I think Honor would be interested in talking to him  Again, this is technically true but I don't think it means he's Connected to Honor in any special way that another Windrunner wouldn't be.

You must have yet to read rythm of war.  It gives us our first inworld definitions  of avatar

Edited April 24, 2022 by bmcclure7

[Mat]

7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

You must have yet to read rythm of war.  It gives us our first inworld definitions  of avatar

I finished RoW the day after it was released xD I don’t remember exactly, but I can’t imagine the definition was extremely useful or anything since the cast of Shardcast lament and joke about avatars just as much as they did pre RoW.  

Either way, we weren’t ‘first introduced’ to the concept of avatars in Stormlight, which was my main point.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I finished RoW the day after it was released xD I don’t remember exactly, but I can’t imagine the definition was extremely useful or anything since the cast of Shardcast lament and joke about avatars just as much as they did pre RoW.  

Either way, we weren’t ‘first introduced’ to the concept of avatars in Stormlight, which was my main point.

 Then Where were we introduce to it? Where else have they used the word avatar in the cosmere?

Edited April 24, 2022 by bmcclure7

[Experience]

Well we knew Patji was an Avatar before RoW. And pretty sure the Sand Lord in White Sands is as well. 

[Mat]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Then Where were we introduce to it? Where else have they used the word avatar in the cosmere?

Basically what Exp said, avatars have been a thing for awhile. Idk how confirmed it is that Trell is an avatar of Autonomy as well but that’s a popular theory, and all these things were pre-RoW

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Basically what Exp said, avatars have been a thing for awhile. Idk how confirmed it is that Trell is an avatar of Autonomy as well but that’s a popular theory, and all these things were pre-RoW

Not in world. Only in wobs till stormlight .

[cometaryorbit]

Not before Stormlight, but before RoW- isn't the term avatar in Oathbringer's epigraphs, with "a new avatar of our being" forming on Obrodai?

[Rune]

On 3/19/2022 at 8:32 PM, Matrim's Dice said:

 

On 3/19/2022 at 3:13 AM, bmcclure7 said:

The storm father seems oddly interested in Kaliden,  he rarely takes to humans other then Dalinar but has communicated several times to Kaliden. 

Well, Kaladin's the first person to draw interest from an Honorspren in a long time, plus the Honorspren he drew was the Ancient Daughter herself, so yeah I think Honor would be interested in talking to him  Again, this is technically true but I don't think it means he's Connected to Honor in any special way that another Windrunner wouldn't be.

I will have to disagree, as Kaladin is a special case when it comes to a Windrunner, as he emulated the ideals so perfectly that he struggled with growing and evolving beyond his current oaths.  Every time he took on a new oath, he was able to and had to change and started emulating the perfect windrunner at every stage.  I think Windrunners held a special place in Honor's heart which got passed on to the Stormfather as they where the most similar to him.  I also have a theory that Kaladin will be the one to take up the shard of Honor as he seems to be the one that the Stormfather implies to be the most like Tanavast.

[Mat]

18 minutes ago, Rune said:

I will have to disagree, as Kaladin is a special case when it comes to a Windrunner, as he emulated the ideals so perfectly that he struggled with growing and evolving beyond his current oaths.  Every time he took on a new oath, he was able to and had to change and started emulating the perfect windrunner at every stage.  I think Windrunners held a special place in Honor's heart which got passed on to the Stormfather as they where the most similar to him.  I also have a theory that Kaladin will be the one to take up the shard of Honor as he seems to be the one that the Stormfather implies to be the most like Tanavast.

I mean, to me a ‘perfect Windrunner’ doesn’t struggle progressing with the Windrunner oaths— I also feel like, generally, splintered Shards will stay splintered. That tracks to me from a magic mechanic standpoint and a narrative standpoint, but I wouldn’t have guessed Rayse would be only a 2 book villain either :P.

[Master Silver]

On 5/6/2022 at 0:07 AM, Rune said:

I will have to disagree, as Kaladin is a special case when it comes to a Windrunner, as he emulated the ideals so perfectly that he struggled with growing and evolving beyond his current oaths.  Every time he took on a new oath, he was able to and had to change and started emulating the perfect windrunner at every stage.  I think Windrunners held a special place in Honor's heart which got passed on to the Stormfather as they where the most similar to him.  I also have a theory that Kaladin will be the one to take up the shard of Honor as he seems to be the one that the Stormfather implies to be the most like Tanavast.

I hadn't thought of it like that. Yes Kaladin is so honorable that he has to really believe in the oath before he takes it. He also can't see the oath as a betrayal of his previous oaths or he will not take it. I think what Brandon is doing with his character arc is brilliant. He sorta shares in a way the brokenness of the Heralds but on a much lesser and not magical way. But he also shows that he can, like an ent when roused, be very dangerous or maybe I should say hasty lol. I just had a thought on the perfect ending to Stormlight 5. Dalinar and Kaladin are awesome and defeat the big bad, and find the Shard. Dalinar, being the leader picks it up begins to ascend and then..... puts it down and says, "Son, no, not son. Kaladin, I have never known a man with more honor. This is meant for you." Then of course Kaladin speaks the 5th ideal, I am Honor. Dalinar for the last time says, these words are accepted. Kaladin picks up the Shard of Honor and ascends. Dalinar, as he is watching Kaladin ascend, says, I will bring Honor to men, and Kaladin says, "These words are accepted."