Theory: Honor Bound all Orders, Not just Bondsmiths.

[Frustration he/him]

We've known since RoW that Honor placed restirctions on Bondsmiths but that his restrictions are no longer in force.

However we have indication that other orders have similar restrictions that are being lifted.

Truthwatchers

Quote

"Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this." -A particularly small emerald.

So one of the Truthwatchers has seen the future, but he's not corrupted like Renarin

Spoiler

Wyndlerunner

So Renarin is not a normal Truthwatcher, whether you want to call him Corrupted or Enlightened. Is he the first Truthwatcher of this kind to have existed?

Brandon Sanderson

What an excellent question. Yes he is.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

So he obviously has this ability by default, however this cannot have been there the entire time otherwise they wouldn't have such a stigma against future sight. This is also about the time that Bondsmith abilities begin to be unbound.

Cohesion likewise had limits placed on it due to Tanavast's bad experience with Microkinesis.

Spoiler

"Fortunately, in my explorations, it seems Stoneshaping is far less . . . explosive of a power, bounded by the rules that Honor placed upon it to protect from the mistakes that happened on Yolen." -RoW 1229 

 

Unfortunetly those are the only orders that we can acuretly guess just how they were limited but it seems reasonable to assume that they all had something like that as Brandon wants to keep discoveries fresh

Spoiler

Questioner

In The Stormlight Archive, will there ever be a point where we'll get to know what all of the different Orders are and all their abilities?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Is that gonna be the fifth book? Or is that gonna be at the very end?

Brandon Sanderson

It'll be at the very end. Basically, to preserve some of the excitement and discovery, you'll notice me just kind of cutting away before some of those powers get used, and things. Just so when the books about those people happen, I am more able to explore it on the page and have more fun with it.

Questioner

Is it gonna be like, after the fifth book, is gonna end those main characters and you're gonna show the next generation?

Brandon Sanderson

It's not next generation. It's the same characters throughout them all, but the back five will have different flashback sequences. So, the back five will have flashbacks from Lift, Renarin, Jasnah, Taln, and Ash. Characters from the first five are still gonna be the main characters. But, like you didn't get, in this one, any Jasnah flashbacks; Jasnah's flashbacks are in the back five, and they'll be kind of *inaudible*.

FanX 2021 (Sept. 17, 2021)

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Frustration

[Ixthos he/him]

Hmmm ... we know Honour's death has loosened the restructions on Surgebinding, but I think some of it could also have been what Ishar did to force them into orders. Perhaps Ishar bound them more to Honour, and thus reduced their natural power, though it raises the question of who had the greater impact, or if Honour acted via Ishar. Either way I agree that with Honour dead, Surgebinding and the Knights likely can achieve more than before.

[NameIess he/him]

I don't think that Truthwatcher actually saw the future. If you look at the previous gemstone records, they all lead up to the events of the recreance. The one directly before this one says that the enemy is pushing for Feverstone keep, the location of Dalinar's vision of the recreance. The record directly after it refers to the fourth ideal (probably of the windrunners) but that's probably due to Kaladin's breakdown in the chapter directly before it. The record after that is the very last one, and it says:

Quote

"Good night, dear Urithiru. Good night, sweet Sibling. Good night, Radiants."

Whoever made this is among the last to leave Urithiru, and also knows that the Radiants either are or will be gone. I wouldn't be surprised if the Recreance took some time for other orders, as it makes sense that the two orders who broke their bonds first would be the Windrunners and Stonewards, the two orders who are most dedicated to protecting others and sacrificing themselves respectively. It makes sense that the other orders would take more time to think about breaking their oaths. The Truthwatcher in question might have just predicted that trapping Ba-Ado-Misram would have the effect it did. Or they might have predicted that breaking the oaths would kill the spren, not just hurt them. It doesn't have to mean that the truthwatcher saw the future. In fact, considering that none of the modern truthwatchers have seen the future, I find it highly unlikely that they do.

That said, I do think that Honor's death will allow modern radiants to reach levels of power previously thought impossible. Something weird is up with Kaladin.

[Frustration he/him]

15 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I don't think that Truthwatcher actually saw the future. If you look at the previous gemstone records, they all lead up to the events of the recreance. The one directly before this one says that the enemy is pushing for Feverstone keep, the location of Dalinar's vision of the recreance. The record directly after it refers to the fourth ideal (probably of the windrunners) but that's probably due to Kaladin's breakdown in the chapter directly before it. The record after that is the very last one, and it says:

Whoever made this is among the last to leave Urithiru, and also knows that the Radiants either are or will be gone. I wouldn't be surprised if the Recreance took some time for other orders, as it makes sense that the two orders who broke their bonds first would be the Windrunners and Stonewards, the two orders who are most dedicated to protecting others and sacrificing themselves respectively. It makes sense that the other orders would take more time to think about breaking their oaths. The Truthwatcher in question might have just predicted that trapping Ba-Ado-Misram would have the effect it did. Or they might have predicted that breaking the oaths would kill the spren, not just hurt them. It doesn't have to mean that the truthwatcher saw the future. In fact, considering that none of the modern truthwatchers have seen the future, I find it highly unlikely that they do.

Why the secrecy then?

[NameIess he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

Why the secrecy then?

Because they predicted either the mass murder of almost all the spren or what is basically genocide of the entire Singer race?

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Because they predicted either the mass murder of almost all the spren or what is basically genocide of the entire Singer race?

If either of those were the case who are they hiding from?

[NameIess he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

If either of those were the case who are they hiding from?

Guilt. Lots and lots of guilt.

[Nesh he/him]

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Because they predicted either the mass murder of almost all the spren or what is basically genocide of the entire Singer race?

I find it unlikely that such a thing could be predicted.  What Ba-Ado-Mishram did was an anomaly, it had never been done before.  So, it likely wasn't what happened to the Singers.  We know there were no Deadeyes before the Recreance, and that the Spren chose to go along with it.  How would a Truthwatcher guess what would happen when no one else had reason to.

[Frustration he/him]

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Guilt. Lots and lots of guilt.

Then why the don't tell anyone? Why the need for a particularly small emerald? If either of those outcomes were the case no one would be around to find it.

[NameIess he/him]

Just now, Nesh said:

I find it unlikely that such a thing could be predicted.  What Ba-Ado-Mishram did was an anomaly, it had never been done before.  So, it likely wasn't what happened to the Singers.  We know there were no Deadeyes before the Recreance, and that the Spren chose to go along with it.  How would a Truthwatcher guess what would happen when no one else had reason to.

It could have been more of a "I knew that disaster would happen" kind of thing. Why would this Truthwatcher see the future when no others have?

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

It could have been more of a "I knew that disaster would happen" kind of thing. Why would this Truthwatcher see the future when no others have?

Time wise why would Melishi see connection when no other Bondsmiths have. Being the only Truthwatcher at the time to see it, he could be the newest member, he could spend more time with Illumination, he could have been the most advanced in oaths. There are a number of reasons.

If it's guilt Why would he have been the only one to have misgivings and why would he say that he "foresaw" this rather than "I could have prevented this."

[NameIess he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

Time wise why would Melishi see connection when no other Bondsmiths have.

Dalinar has. I'm talking modern day truthwatchers, not ancient ones.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If it's guilt Why would he have been the only one to have misgivings and why would he say that he "foresaw" this rather than "I could have prevented this."

Because he chose not to prevent it? 

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, Nameless said:

Dalinar has. I'm talking modern day truthwatchers, not ancient ones.

There are two of them, neither of whom has gotten a PoV and we have no idea on Oath level.

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Because he chose not to prevent it? 

And that means he foresaw it?

[NameIess he/him]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

And that means he foresaw it?

A scholar who saw that imprisoning Mishram would have waaaaaaay worse effects than everyone thought, but decided to obfuscate their findings anyways? Technically, they foresaw it, but that doesn't mean they saw the future.

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, Nameless said:

A scholar who saw that imprisoning Mishram would have waaaaaaay worse effects than everyone thought, but decided to obfuscate their findings anyways? Technically, they foresaw it, but that doesn't mean they saw the future.

Given Rosharan society I think they would be far more careful with words like "Foresaw" than that.

[NameIess he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

Given Rosharan society I think they would be far more careful with words like "Foresaw" than that.

We don't know that the stigma existed back then.

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

We don't know that the stigma existed back then.

He intentionally tried to hide it, "Don't tell anyone." Using a small gem etc, he was trying to hide this. So there was a reason. Shame isn't enough if it was shame he'd leave a warning, or say "I caused this" or "I allowed this to happen." But he didn't. Brandon chose the word "foresaw" for a reason.

[Wandering Shade]

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

We don't know that the stigma existed back then.

We kinda do. The In-Universe text Words of Radiance was written only a few centuries after the Recreance and it talks about how one of the powers of the Unmade is seeing the future. Not one of the powers of the Truthwatchers.

Nevermind, I got Words of Radiance and Mythica confused. I thought Words of Radiance also mentions the Unmade, but it doesn't. My bad

Edited February 9, 2022 by Wandering Shade
Correcting myself

[+Harrycrapper]

2 hours ago, Nesh said:

I find it unlikely that such a thing could be predicted.  What Ba-Ado-Mishram did was an anomaly, it had never been done before.  So, it likely wasn't what happened to the Singers.  We know there were no Deadeyes before the Recreance, and that the Spren chose to go along with it.  How would a Truthwatcher guess what would happen when no one else had reason to.

Quote

"We are uncertain the effects this will have on the parsh. At the very least, it should deny them forms of power. Melishi is confident, but Naze-daughter-Kuzodo warns of unintended side effects." 

30-20

fifth emerald

 

[CryoZenith he/him]

The concept of hiding something out of guilt feels very un-Truthwatchery. Especially for a high Oath level Truthwatcher. In fact, it feels so un-Truthwatchery that it feels oathbreakish.

The stigma associated with telling the future exists because different shards have different levels of future sight. Honor is particularly bad at it, and Odium is decent, so all instances of future sight (on Roshar) could be rule-of-thumb attributed to "being of the enemy" (in-canon wording) with some measure of reliability. I don't think it's necessary to posit that regular standard radiants can do it, of any order, for that cultural taboo to emerge.

[Frustration he/him]

5 hours ago, Nameless said:

We don't know that the stigma existed back then.

In his final vision Honor says that to see the future is forbiden.

[NameIess he/him]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

In his final vision Honor says that to see the future is forbiden.

Alright.

[Ixthos he/him]

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

In his final vision Honor says that to see the future is forbiden.

Do we know if this was an old injunction, or something that Honour only began to believe or say later in life?

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Do we know if this was an old injunction, or something that Honour only began to believe or say later in life?

Well even if it was a new pronouncement, Honor was worshipped as a God, so if you see the future that's something to hide.

[Ixthos he/him]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Well even if it was a new pronouncement, Honor was worshipped as a God, so if you see the future that's something to hide.

True, but it also could be something Honour only saw as a problem when he made the visions, and we know the visions came after the Recreance.

 

Also, side note, but we also know Honour had future sight, as does Cultivation, so it could be more a problem as he sensed Surgebinders would become stronger after he died and one of the most dangerous uses would be future sight. It also could be his Intent made him more focused on making vows that didn't consider the future.