Avatars vs Splinters / Patji

[cometaryorbit]

Sort of a splinter of the 'hypothetical magic systems' topic...

While we don't understand avatars, it seems that an avatar is a mind/personality distinct from the Shard's Vessel holding a sub-set of that Shard's Investiture (by WOB, Bavadin is always aware of the relationship, but not all of Autonomy's avatars are necessarily aware they are avatars - not sure if that would apply to all Shards).

That sounds... really a lot like a Splinter. And we know Splinters can show up on other planets than their own Shard's, though lots of Investiture can make travel hard. We've seen a Seon [with a Splinter of Devotion] and a Returned [with a Splinter of Endowment] on Roshar.

Perhaps the difference between a Splinter and an Avatar is the method of creation, Avatars being made from "ambient" pre-Shattering Investiture that became assigned to that Shard at the Shattering? Maybe an Avatar is some kind of merging of a regular person and a Splinter, if the presence of a human named Trell in White Sand is a hint?

I wonder if the presence of an Avatar of Autonomy on First of the Sun doesn't really have greater significance than the presence of a Splinter of Endowment or Devotion on Roshar. That would explain the WoBs describing First of the Sun as having no Shard in residence, "natural" magic, etc.?

(Maybe the perpendicularity, Aviars/worms/fruit, etc. were all pre-existing and Bavadin/Autonomy just used the already present concentration of Investiture to create an avatar?)

[Eternal Khol]

Brandon has stated that some, in the Cosmere would call a Avatar a Splinter, but the difference, according to him is that a Splinter is like... cut off from the Shard pretty much. Its not actually considered part of that Shard anymore. That Splinter literally splintered off from the Shards power and is separate now. So while Spren, as Splinters were once Honor's(or Cultivation or Odiums) Investiture, they arent Honor. He couldnt just use that power to do what he wished.

 

An Avatar on the other hand, is the Vessel manifesting a piece of itself somewhere. Its not actually breaking off from the Shard. The Vessel is still Connected to it and has control over that power/being.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/467/#e14744

 

3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

(Maybe the perpendicularity, Aviars/worms/fruit, etc. were all pre-existing and Bavadin/Autonomy just used the already present concentration of Investiture to create an avatar?)

I'm thinking that the perpendicularity didn't form until Autonomy started messing around there/Patji started manifesting.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Eternal Khol

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 2/7/2022 at 4:55 PM, cometaryorbit said:

(Maybe the perpendicularity, Aviars/worms/fruit, etc. were all pre-existing and Bavadin/Autonomy just used the already present concentration of Investiture to create an avatar?)

This seems pretty likely to me, with what Brandon has said.

Quote

But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)

...

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

[cometaryorbit]

That might explain why the Aviar magic is bond-based, which doesn't feel much like Autonomy: it's really a "natural" Adonalsium-era magic that Autonomy has only meddled with after the fact.