A dissapointing take on the "Son of Tarnavast"

[DiePie]

The theory is that since Syl was "created" by Tarnavast, she would be considered Tarnavast's "daughter", and since Syl bonded Kaladin, he's considered by the Stormfather to be Tarnavast's son-in-law or something along those lines.

I don't like it either, but the more I think about it, the more likely it seems. Please prove me wrong.

[Cocoa he/him]

Syl very explicitly wasn't created by Tanavast, but by the Stormfather, unlike most other pre-Recreance Honorspren. This is why the Stormfather refers to her as his daughter. And while the Stormfather has since merged with Tanavast's CS, she predates the shattering, so she's not Tanavast's daughter by virtue of a "the Stormfather actually counts as Tanavast" trick.

So, yes, I believe you are wrong because the information you're using to draw your conclusions is wrong.

My personal theory is that Kal is a "Son of Tanavast" for one of two reasons. If it's meant literally, then Tanavast sired one of his ancestors on Lirin's side of the family, which coud explain why both Lirin and Kal are both so devoted to their codes of honor and behavior. If it's only meant figuratively, then it has to do with how close Kaladin is to Tanavast's own self-sacrificing (and some might say self-destructive) ideal of what "Honor" is.

[Mat he/him]

I always think this is taken too seriously; I’m definitely in the camp of ‘Kaladin is honorable -> Son of Tanavast’ as just a natural wording that reflects his arc. Not something that Brandon knowingly crafted for a specific side reason, but it is Brandon, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

[Anomander Rake he/him]

19 hours ago, Cocoa said:

Syl very explicitly wasn't created by Tanavast, but by the Stormfather, unlike most other pre-Recreance Honorspren. This is why the Stormfather refers to her as his daughter. And while the Stormfather has since merged with Tanavast's CS, she predates the shattering, so she's not Tanavast's daughter by virtue of a "the Stormfather actually counts as Tanavast" trick.

So, yes, I believe you are wrong because the information you're using to draw your conclusions is wrong.

My personal theory is that Kal is a "Son of Tanavast" for one of two reasons. If it's meant literally, then Tanavast sired one of his ancestors on Lirin's side of the family, which coud explain why both Lirin and Kal are both so devoted to their codes of honor and behavior. If it's only meant figuratively, then it has to do with how close Kaladin is to Tanavast's own self-sacrificing (and some might say self-destructive) ideal of what "Honor" is.

I'm with you here.  The differences between Kal and other Windrunners/Radiants may be minor but they have an almost prescient feel when they come up, with him alone being called "Son of Tanavast", his weird ability to shape the winds, idk.  It definitely feels more important than Kal being particularly honorable

[+Harrycrapper]

20 hours ago, Cocoa said:

Syl very explicitly wasn't created by Tanavast, but by the Stormfather, unlike most other pre-Recreance Honorspren. This is why the Stormfather refers to her as his daughter. And while the Stormfather has since merged with Tanavast's CS, she predates the shattering, so she's not Tanavast's daughter by virtue of a "the Stormfather actually counts as Tanavast" trick.

So, yes, I believe you are wrong because the information you're using to draw your conclusions is wrong.

My personal theory is that Kal is a "Son of Tanavast" for one of two reasons. If it's meant literally, then Tanavast sired one of his ancestors on Lirin's side of the family, which coud explain why both Lirin and Kal are both so devoted to their codes of honor and behavior. If it's only meant figuratively, then it has to do with how close Kaladin is to Tanavast's own self-sacrificing (and some might say self-destructive) ideal of what "Honor" is.

It's been a bit since I read the relevant Stormlight book where this was explained, but I remember this being the exact opposite. Syl had been around during the days of the original Radiants and fell into a deep coma following the loss of her Radiant. Following the Recreance, the Stormfather created 10 Honorspren who then created more as the years went by. Syl was found and it was a big deal because she was the only one NOT created by the Stormfather, the only original Honorspren to survive the Recreance. The Stormfather refers to her as "Daughter" because of the part of him that is Tanavast. Again, I'm not 100% on that, but that's what I recall. 

[NameIess]

21 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

The Stormfather refers to her as "Daughter" because of the part of him that is Tanavast. Again, I'm not 100% on that, but that's what I recall. 

I highly doubt that the stormfather contains Tanavast's cognitive shadow. This WoB literally says that no one is holding the stormfather's power:

(Mistborn spoilers)

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

So what happens when Shards die?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, it depends on how long the Shardholders have held the Shard. After it dies, the Shard is often able to continue acting, a kind of "Cognitive Shadow" of sorts. For example, the mists were able to continue doing what Preservation wished in helping out Vin and Snapping people. With the Stormfather, he is that Cognitive Shadow, and he's semi-sentient. It's that power, but no one is actually holding it. We also see this on Threnody.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

This one says that Tanavast is dead, no funny business:

Quote

Questioner

Is Honor still alive?

Brandon Sanderson

Honor? Honor's dead.

Questioner

What about Tanavast?

Brandon Sanderson

So, um, you can assume that there is no funny business going on there.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

So I find it likely that the Stormfather is Honor's cognitive shadow, the remnants of Honor's splintered power. Not the holder of Tanavast's cognitive shadow.

[VeeDree]

7 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

It's been a bit since I read the relevant Stormlight book where this was explained, but I remember this being the exact opposite. Syl had been around during the days of the original Radiants and fell into a deep coma following the loss of her Radiant. Following the Recreance, the Stormfather created 10 Honorspren who then created more as the years went by. Syl was found and it was a big deal because she was the only one NOT created by the Stormfather, the only original Honorspren to survive the Recreance. The Stormfather refers to her as "Daughter" because of the part of him that is Tanavast. Again, I'm not 100% on that, but that's what I recall. 

It's in Chapter 108 from Oathbringer, it comes up between a conversation between Notum and Kaladin. 

The spren captain explains to Kaladin that honorspren were created by Honor himself, but apparently sometime before Honor's death, he stopped doing so and instructed the Stormfather to create the honorspren instead. 

Notum's line in the book goes: "The Stormfather created only a handful of children. All of these, save Sylphrena, were destroyed in the Recreance." So Syl is explicitly stated as Stormfather's creation. 

Post-recreance, though the Stormfather was devastated by the loss, he was still tasked to create spren, so you weren't wrong about the 10 Honorspren. It just so happened that the only difference between these 10 and Sylphrena is that Syl is from before the Recreance. Origin wise, they all came from the Stormfather. 

[bmcclure7]

On 2/3/2022 at 4:25 PM, DiePie said:

The theory is that since Syl was "created" by Tarnavast, she would be considered Tarnavast's "daughter", and since Syl bonded Kaladin, he's considered by the Stormfather to be Tarnavast's son-in-law or something along those lines.

I don't like it either, but the more I think about it, the more likely it seems. Please prove me wrong.

 I think it's more likely that hes called a son of honor because he worships the Almighty. Or perhaps just because he is an honorable man. Contrary to what everyone else thinks I don't think it means anything  more. 

[+robardin he/him]

On 2/5/2022 at 8:55 AM, bmcclure7 said:

 I think it's more likely that hes called a son of honor because he worships the Almighty. Or perhaps just because he is an honorable man. Contrary to what everyone else thinks I don't think it means anything  more. 

The spren seem to call humans "child of" or "son of" a Shard as a way of implying their intent, the way they see it. When the Nightwatcher approaches Dalinar in the valley, she addresses him at first as Son of Honor..., and then follows with, "Hello, human. You smell of desperation. ... What is it you wish of me? What boon drives you, Son of Honor? Son of Odium?"

Similarly, where the Stormfather calls Kaladin "Son of Honor", he calls Venli "Child of the plains. Child of Odium." when she enters the highstorm to release Ulim from the gemstone that Gavilar gave to her.

[Kandrafish]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

The spren seem to call humans "child of" or "son of" a Shard as a way of implying their intent, the way they see it. When the Nightwatcher approaches Dalinar in the valley, she addresses him at first as Son of Honor..., and then follows with, "Hello, human. You smell of desperation. ... What is it you wish of me? What boon drives you, Son of Honor? Son of Odium?"

Similarly, where the Stormfather calls Kaladin "Son of Honor", he calls Venli "Child of the plains. Child of Odium." when she enters the highstorm to release Ulim from the gemstone that Gavilar gave to her.

The issue is that the Stormfather calls Kaladin "Child of Tanavast" and he only calls Kaladin this. There should be a meaning for this.

So, based on your same logic, Kaladin is a "Child of Tanavast" in the same way that Venli is a "Child of the Plains"

I think one of the common theories is that Kaladin is the heir of Tanavast

Spoiler

in the same way that Vin is the heir of Leras.

(Mistborn Era 1 spoiler)

The theory here that Kaladin would be Tanavast's Son in Law because Syl is the only spren created by Tanavast has been refuted because Tanavast didn't create her. The Stormfather did.

This lends itself to the idea that Kaladin is Tanavast's heir. Whether this was chosen by his "Wife?", Cultivation's shard, or not remains to be seen. 

1 The theory of Kaladin being granted this title because of Syl could be rebuffed if he is called the "Child of Tanavast" when the bond is broken. Then we know that the term relates to Kaladin's destiny.

2 On the other hand, Syl was found by the Stormfather after a 1000 year disappearance after her first Radiant died. There is the possibility that she could have endured or encountered someone or thing that altered her and made her connected to Tanavast and therefore Kaladin as would be connected as well. Perhaps her Radiant died and she witnessed Tan Avast and Koravellium Avast's last moments together, or something (I'm just spit balling).

Anyway, we can get a better idea when I get a hold of my Words of Radiance in a few weeks and check if Kaladin is the Child of Tanavast while Syl is "Dead".

[+robardin he/him]

53 minutes ago, Kandrafish said:

The issue is that the Stormfather calls Kaladin "Child of Tanavast" and he only calls Kaladin this. There should be a meaning for this.

So, based on your same logic, Kaladin is a "Child of Tanavast" in the same way that Venli is a "Child of the Plains"I

No, I mean that one shouldn't take Kaladin-specific inferences to the Stormfather calling him "Son of Honor" when the Nightwatcher calls Dalinar both "Son of Honor" and "Son of Odium" in the same sentence.

 And if you give special weight to the SF using the appellation over the NW on account of now being a Splinter of Honor, well the SF also called Venli "Child of Odium". So it seems to me that both the SF and NW are free to throw both labels around, and neither is more than an opinion of the "big" spren as to the person's nature.

I mean it's not like the SF calling Kaladin "Son of Honor" meant he was going to do anything special wrt Kaladin. Quite the opposite, he used the term in anger: first telling Kaladin to break off bonding with Syl, then in telling Kaladin he'd killed "my beloved one" and that "you shall not ride my winds again".

Hardly the sentiment he'd express if he meant it as a special title for the Heir to the Shard he is a Splinter of.

[Wandering Shade]

10 minutes ago, robardin said:

No, I mean that one shouldn't take Kaladin-specific inferences to the Stormfather calling him "Son of Honor" when the Nightwatcher calls Dalinar both "Son of Honor" and "Son of Odium" in the same sentence.

 And if you give special weight to the SF using the appellation over the NW on account of now being a Splinter of Honor, well the SF also called Venli "Child of Odium". So it seems to me that both the SF and NW are free to throw both labels around, and neither is more than an opinion of the "big" spren as to the person's nature.

I mean it's not like the SF calling Kaladin "Son of Honor" meant he was going to do anything special wrt Kaladin. Quite the opposite, he used the term in anger: first telling Kaladin to break off bonding with Syl, then in telling Kaladin he'd killed "my beloved one" and that "you shall not ride my winds again".

Hardly the sentiment he'd express if he meant it as a special title for the Heir to the Shard he is a Splinter of.

I think you misunderstand. The SF has never called Kaladin "Son of Honor," which is what he calls all other humans. He calls Kal "Son of Tanavast." That's what's weird.

[+robardin he/him]

28 minutes ago, Wandering Shade said:

I think you misunderstand. The SF has never called Kaladin "Son of Honor," which is what he calls all other humans. He calls Kal "Son of Tanavast." That's what's weird.

Ah, I see what you mean.

Well what I wrote appears also to be true (I just double checked): he DOES call Kaladin "Son of Honor" in discussing his bond with Syl, and his "killing" her, in WoR.

Doing a text search, the SF only ever calls Kaladin "Son of Tanavast" the one time: in OB Ch. 31, when Kaladin flies up into a highstorm as it tears into a town to plead with the SF to turn away from the unsheltered people below; and this after addressing him first as "Son of Honor":

Quote

WHO ARE YOU TO MAKE DEMANDS OF THE STORM, SON OF HONOR? ... I AM THE MEMORY OF A GOD, THE FRAGMENT THAT REMAINS. THE SOUL OF A STORM AND THE MIND OF ETERNITY.

AND WHAT OF THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS WHO HAVE DIED IN THESE WINDS BEFORE? SHOULD i HAVE HAD MERCY FOR THEM? AND THE WAVES THAT SWALLOW, THE FIRES THAT CONSUME? YOU WOULD HAVE THEM STOP?

IT IS NOT SOMETHING I CAN DO, SON OF TANAVAST. IF THE WIND STOPS BLOWING, IT IS NOT A WIND. IT IS NOTHING.

Unless you count in RoW Ch. 107, when the SF refers to Kaladin as "the Son of Tanavast" but to Dalinar as Kaladin plummeted through the highstorm diving after Lirin.

In other words, the SF calls Kaladin "Son of Honor" more often, both to Kaladin directly and in reference to him to Dalinar, than he does "Son of Tanavast". I'd say it's more on the level of calling someone by different nicknames just for a little variety (after all, the SF never refers to humans by their name).

(BTW, the phrase "Son of Tanavast" is used just on other time in any SA book: towards Dalinar, by Taravangian.)

While there may be "something" to when the SF chooses to refer to Kaladin as "Son of Tanavast" vs. "Son of Honor", I also think it's a far, far reach to think that implies Kaladin is somehow the "Heir" to the Shard of Honor (based on calling him by the previous Vessel's name). Especially if you're drawing a parallel to Vin, when not her nor anybody else who later took up Preservation was ever called "Heir of Leras", so that's a double reach to me.

Essentially, saying "Son" doesn't imply "Heir"; and referring to Tanavast vs. Honor, if anything is meant by the use of distinct terms in context, is LESS meaningful wrt becoming some aspect of the Shard of Honor if the name of the previous Vessel were invoked instead of the name of the Shard in question, right?

Plus, in Oathbringer alone, the SF addresses Dalinar as "Son of Honor" a lot, lot more than he does Kaladin. If anybody's the "Heir to the Shard of Honor" it'd be the Bondsmith bonded to the biggest Splinter thereof, right? Which is why he has the right to make binding deals with Odium as regards the Oathpact?

Edited February 6, 2022 by robardin

[Wandering Shade]

4 minutes ago, robardin said:

Ah, I see what you mean.

Well what I wrote appears also to be true (I just double checked): he DOES call Kaladin "Son of Honor" in discussing his bond with Syl, and his "killing" her, in WoR.

Doing a text search, the SF only ever calls Kaladin "Son of Tanavast" the one time: in OB Ch. 31, when Kaladin flies up into a highstorm as it tears into a town to plead with the SF to turn away from the unsheltered people below; and this after addressing him first as "Son of Honor":

Unless you count in RoW Ch. 107, when the SF refers to Kaladin as "the Son of Tanavast" but to Dalinar as Kaladin plummeted through the highstorm diving after Lirin.

In other words, the SF calls Kaladin "Son of Honor" more often, both to Kaladin directly and in reference to him to Dalinar, than he does "Son of Tanavast". I'd say it's more on the level of calling someone by different nicknames just for a little variety (after all, the SF never refers to humans by their name).

(BTW, the phrase "Son of Tanavast" is used just on other time in any SA book: towards Dalinar, by Taravangian.)

While there may be "something" to when the SF chooses to refer to Kaladin as "Son of Tanavast" vs. "Son of Honor", I also think it's a far, far reach to think that implies Kaladin is somehow the "Heir" to the Shard of Honor (based on calling him by the previous Vessel's name). Especially if you're drawing a parallel to Vin, when not her nor anybody else who later took up Preservation was ever called "Heir of Leras", so that's a double reach to me.

Essentially, saying "Son" doesn't imply "Heir"; and referring to Tanavast vs. Honor, if anything is meant by the use of distinct terms in context, is LESS meaningful wrt becoming some aspect of the Shard of Honor if the name of the previous Vessel were invoked instead of the name of the Shard in question, right?

....damn.

You right. I remembered the SF calling Kal "Son of Tanavast" way more often than that. Doesnt he call him that during the centerbeat in book 1? I dont remember precisely. Still, he doesnt do it super often and Taravangium calls Dalinar that too, so maybe it's not as important as we all think it is.

 

But c'mon, it'd be way more fun if it did mean something, right?

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Kandrafish said:

The issue is that the Stormfather calls Kaladin "Child of Tanavast" and he only calls Kaladin this. There should be a meaning for this.

So, based on your same logic, Kaladin is a "Child of Tanavast" in the same way that Venli is a "Child of the Plains"

I think one of the common theories is that Kaladin is the heir of Tanavast

  Reveal hidden contents

in the same way that Vin is the heir of Leras.

(Mistborn Era 1 spoiler)

The theory here that Kaladin would be Tanavast's Son in Law because Syl is the only spren created by Tanavast has been refuted because Tanavast didn't create her. The Stormfather did.

This lends itself to the idea that Kaladin is Tanavast's heir. Whether this was chosen by his "Wife?", Cultivation's shard, or not remains to be seen. 

1 The theory of Kaladin being granted this title because of Syl could be rebuffed if he is called the "Child of Tanavast" when the bond is broken. Then we know that the term relates to Kaladin's destiny.

2 On the other hand, Syl was found by the Stormfather after a 1000 year disappearance after her first Radiant died. There is the possibility that she could have endured or encountered someone or thing that altered her and made her connected to Tanavast and therefore Kaladin as would be connected as well. Perhaps her Radiant died and she witnessed Tan Avast and Koravellium Avast's last moments together, or something (I'm just spit balling).

Anyway, we can get a better idea when I get a hold of my Words of Radiance in a few weeks and check if Kaladin is the Child of Tanavast while Syl is "Dead".

Tanavast  is honor you're reading too much into it. Calling him son of tanavast is the same as calling him son of honor. All it means is like dalenar He is aligned to honor.

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, bmcclure7 said:

Tanavast  is honor you're reading too much into it. Calling him son of tanavast is the same as calling him son of honor. All it means is like dalenar He is aligned to honor.

No, Brandon has said there is meaning to it.

Spoiler

Winds Alight (paraphrased)

In SA the Stormfather refers to several people as "Child of Honor", but only Kaladin as "Child of Tanavast". Is there significance to that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, there is.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

[+robardin he/him]

2 minutes ago, Wandering Shade said:

....damn.

You right. I remembered the SF calling Kal "Son of Tanavast" way more often than that. Doesnt he call him that during the centerbeat in book 1? I dont remember precisely. Still, he doesnt do it super often and Taravangium calls Dalinar that too, so maybe it's not as important as we all think it is.

 

But c'mon, it'd be way more fun if it did mean something, right?

Oh, it might well mean "something". He calls Dalinar "Son of Honor" a lot, but even if he has only done it one or two times, has only ever referred to Kaladin as "Son of Tanavast".

I find it interesting that Syl and Pattern refer to people by names, both their bonded human and others, but the Stormfather never does, I don't think? It's always "Child of this" or "Son of that" and maybe "the Windrunner". Not even ever addressing Dalinar by name, in talking to him? Yet the unbonded Sibling does so right from the get-go.

[bmcclure7]

Just now, Frustration said:

No, Brandon has said there is meaning to it.

  Hide contents

Winds Alight (paraphrased)

In SA the Stormfather refers to several people as "Child of Honor", but only Kaladin as "Child of Tanavast". Is there significance to that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, there is.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

 Exactly it means that he is  Aligned to honor. It just doesn't mean anything more. 

[+robardin he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

No, Brandon has said there is meaning to it.

  Hide contents

Winds Alight (paraphrased)

In SA the Stormfather refers to several people as "Child of Honor", but only Kaladin as "Child of Tanavast". Is there significance to that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, there is.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

Yeah I was just digging for that in the Arcanum.

It means "something" but I doubt it is that the SF thinks Kaladin will take up the Shard of Honor.

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, bmcclure7 said:

 Exactly it means that he is  Aligned to honor. It just doesn't mean anything more. 

There is significance to Kaladin alone being called son of Tanavast, if it was simple alignment to Honor others would be called that but they aren't

[bmcclure7]

3 minutes ago, robardin said:

Yeah I was just digging for that in the Arcanum.

It means "something" but I doubt it is that the SF thinks Kaladin will take up the Shard of Honor.

 Unless dalinar is to then that's not going to happen.  dalanar also is a son of honor.  

Edited February 6, 2022 by bmcclure7

[bmcclure7]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

There is significance to Kaladin alone being called son of Tanavast, if it was simple alignment to Honor others would be called that but they aren't

 They literally are the same person other people are called that. 

[+robardin he/him]

Just now, bmcclure7 said:

 Unless dollar is it 2 then that's not going to happen.  dalanar also is a son of honor.  

Autocorrect strikes again, "Dollar", LOL! (We know what you mean)

Here's a thought: since the the highstorms on Roshar and the Stormfather himself are all older than the Shattering, perhaps the Stormfather remembers (even if unconsciously) Tanavast the human (from before Ascending), and Kaladin's motivations are similar to Tanavast's in seeking Shardic power?

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 They literally are the same person other people are called that. 

1. No they are not, Tanavast is a person Honor is a shard.
2. No, no one other than Kal is called Child of Tanavast by the Stormfather.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Frustration

[bmcclure7]

17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

1. No they are not, Tanavast is a person Honor is a shard.
2. No, no one other than Kal is called Child of Tanavast by the Stormfather.

 For all practical purposes they are the same since Tanavast Assension.