Dawnshards/Shardic Quadrants Theory

[Kandrafish]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Given that Ruin and Preservation "polarized" I believe that if Ruin was replaced with Cultivation, and all else remained the same yes they would have destroyed each other.

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Argent (paraphrased)

Ruin and Preservation were often represented in the Mistborn trilogy in terms of black and white. Is this imagery limited to that series, or do other Shards also have an associated hue?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This (Ruin & Preservation's colors) was because of the specific world and their perception of the world and themselves. Essentially, because of the dynamics of the interplay between Ruin and Preservation, they "chose" to view themselves as black and white respectively, so that's how they were represented. Also, because the only two Shards on Scadrial, and their natures were opposites, after the long period of time they spent on the same planet, they kind of "polarized." If similar thing happened on another world, similar coloring effect could happen.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 1, 2013)

 

I guess we have our question then...

Who do you think is the push pull opposite of Preservation than? 

Some 0- to match Preservation's 0+

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Kandrafish said:

I guess we have our question then...

Who do you think is the push pull opposite of Preservation than? 

Some 0- to match Preservation's 0+

I was actually thinking Whimsy, I don't have a number analogy, but it's kind of an "All change" in opposite to "No change"

[Kandrafish]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

I was actually thinking Whimsy, I don't have a number analogy, but it's kind of an "All change" in opposite to "No change"

Ok, I can kind of see that. What do you think of Dominion and Autonomy pairing?

And Odium and Devotion pairing?

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, Kandrafish said:

Ok, I can kind of see that. What do you think of Dominion and Autonomy pairing?

And Odium and Devotion pairing?

On this one?

[cometaryorbit]

I would argue Autonomy would be more directly opposed to Dominion than Devotion, but that depends on how you interpret Autonomy's Intent ... I would think freedom from external control vs. rule by force would be pretty nearly direct opposites.

Odium and Devotion might be direct opposites, depending on whether Devotion is interpreted simply as "love" or more like "loving service" (which might be more directly opposed to an Intent like Conquest or Tyranny). They're certainly mostly opposite.

21 hours ago, Frustration said:

Cultivation adds, it creates more, Ruin destroys it makes things less.

Preservation would have fought Cultivation to stop growth from occuring, Cultivation is push, Ruin is pull, Preservation is inertia.

Mostly... but I don't think Cultivation is as purely addition/growth as all that. Cultivation usually means the control of growth, which involves pruning undesired growth as well as fostering desired growth. I think people tend to see Cultivation as more purely positive than it probably actually is.

"Most compatible with" Ruin I don't think means "direct opposite". I think it means they'd combine well... probably better than Preservation and Ruin (less heavily impeding the Vessel's actions).

6 hours ago, Quantus said:

Because of this WOB I dont really subscribe to direct pairings beyond what it implied in the Outward/Inward and Increase/Decrease that is part of the quadrant fault lines. 

Yeah, I agree... only some have direct opposites (and I'm not even sure the external/internal dichotomy applies either).

 

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Given that Ruin and Preservation "polarized" I believe that if Ruin was replaced with Cultivation, and all else remained the same yes they would have destroyed each other.

  Reveal hidden contents

Argent (paraphrased)

Ruin and Preservation were often represented in the Mistborn trilogy in terms of black and white. Is this imagery limited to that series, or do other Shards also have an associated hue?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This (Ruin & Preservation's colors) was because of the specific world and their perception of the world and themselves. Essentially, because of the dynamics of the interplay between Ruin and Preservation, they "chose" to view themselves as black and white respectively, so that's how they were represented. Also, because the only two Shards on Scadrial, and their natures were opposites, after the long period of time they spent on the same planet, they kind of "polarized." If similar thing happened on another world, similar coloring effect could happen.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 1, 2013)

 

Yeah, possibly - if Ruin and Cultivation created a world together they might polarize in the same way. But if Ruin/Preservation or Ruin/Cultivation just met up "on neutral ground" without a previous relationship they might not be polarized.

[Kandrafish]

On 2/4/2022 at 4:16 PM, Frustration said:

On this one?

Yeah. I have been fiddling around with it a decent amount, but the foundation was:

Autonomy is opposite to Dominion

Odium is opposite to Devotion

And the Preservation Ruin pairing was also instrumental... Unfortunately, that was one of my reasons for this. IF Preservation and Ruin are opposites that cancel, then I can create a chart which will let me guess that we are missing a shard that is the push to Valor and related to Autonomy but opposed in most circumstances. So... Valiant effort is opposite of Cowardice but also Valiant efforts are not Wise... Fighting for independence also is not Wise and separating on your own in an Autonomous way is also quite NotBrave or Valiant --> Ergo Prudence, which seems exactly what the actions of the "survival shard" match.

I hoped to do the same for finding the last shard, but I am still not sure about some of the matches... So, Vanquish is more of a placeholder.

 

I working on another model based on allomancy.  I struggle with all the shards that we haven't been exposed to yet (even indirectly, like how we have seen Taldain).  Mercy, Whimsy and Invention are very difficult.

The other issue is that Ambition and Honor don't fit quite right wherever I put them... And the I feel bad about putting any shard on aluminum too.

On 2/4/2022 at 8:28 PM, cometaryorbit said:

I would argue Autonomy would be more directly opposed to Dominion than Devotion, but that depends on how you interpret Autonomy's Intent ... I would think freedom from external control vs. rule by force would be pretty nearly direct opposites.

Yes, that is the idea... Dominion is the Push to Autonomy's Pull

Quote

Odium and Devotion might be direct opposites, depending on whether Devotion is interpreted simply as "love" or more like "loving service" (which might be more directly opposed to an Intent like Conquest or Tyranny). They're certainly mostly opposite.

That is how I see it... Odium is about giving into darker passions for the thrill of defeating an enemy, the trance of pure indulgence, and so on.

Devotion is about devoting yourself to what you love, whether it is painting or politics

Edited February 6, 2022 by Kandrafish

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

Yeah. I have been fiddling around with it a decent amount, but the foundation was:

Autonomy is opposite to Dominion

Odium is opposite to Devotion

And the Preservation Ruin pairing was also instrumental... Unfortunately, that was one of my reasons for this. IF Preservation and Ruin are opposites that cancel, then I can create a chart which will let me guess that we are missing a shard that is the push to Valor and related to Autonomy but opposed in most circumstances. So... Valiant effort is opposite of Cowardice but also Valiant efforts are not Wise... Fighting for independence also is not Wise and separating on your own in an Autonomous way is also quite NotBrave or Valiant --> Ergo Prudence, which seems exactly what the actions of the "survival shard" match.

I hoped to do the same for finding the last shard, but I am still not sure about some of the matches... So, Vanquish is more of a placeholder.

Well if you want my full thoughts on the chart I'll give them.

Chart for referance

Spoiler

 

 

Autonomy being an opposite of Dominion, I don't have any objections, nor do I overly disagree with Odium and Devotion being opposites,

Honor being opposite with Ambition I can kinda see but I don't know how I feel about it.

Valor and Endowment I really don't understand, I know it's an internal/external but I'm not seeing it, probably just me being dumb though.

On the Dawnshard placements I have a few questions

Why is Whimsy not in Change?

Honor and Odium would make a natural pair, so I have to disagree with them being in differnet Dawnshards.

Spoiler

Questioner

What Shard is the opposite of Odium in the sense of the *inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

There are several that could be considered opposites--

Questioner

I mean in the assimilation sense, you’ve said that Odium doesn’t want to absorb any of the other ones but which one would want to?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, which one would want to join with him?

Questioner

Or any of them.

Brandon Sanderson

I think that if personalities had been different, Honor and Odium, there would have been a very natural pairing, not that they’re opposites but they would have attracted. [...]

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

Additionally in there is a "Unite" dawnshard I feel Odium has to be part of it because of this rough quote from Elantris ".... hatred can unitfy men far more quickly and far more powerfully than devotion ever could."

[Kandrafish]

I think this is done. It is still open to suggestions and revisions, though. Here is my best model on Dawnshards, so far...

"I am FREE" - Ruin

'She only cares about change' (paraphrased) -Rayse referring to Cultivation "The will of a god to remake things, to demand they be better. The power to change." -Rysn (CHANGE?)

"I am UNITY" - Dalinar holding part of Honor

I expect BELIEF on Threnody. It fits thematically, I think.

[cometaryorbit]

I think the design is going to be closer to an Allomantic table than Roshar's double-eye, given the importance of 16 on Scadrial.
 

On 2/6/2022 at 4:23 AM, Kandrafish said:

"I am FREE" - Ruin

'She only cares about change' (paraphrased) -Rayse referring to Cultivation "The will of a god to remake things, to demand they be better. The power to change." -Rysn (CHANGE?)

"I am UNITY" - Dalinar holding part of Honor

I expect BELIEF on Threnody. It fits thematically, I think.

"Belief" might be another term for, or part of, what I called the "Think" Dawnshard (which is almost certainly not going to be the right name).
I think Ruin was just talking about escaping his imprisonment, though I also thought about a model with an "Unbind/Separate" Shard, leaving the "Change" Dawnshard for more positive change (Cultivation, Endowment, Invention, and maybe Whimsy) - largely because there seemed to be more than four "Change" Shards (Cultivation, Endowment, Invention, Whimsy, Ruin, and arguably Odium depending on how Division-y you think its true Intent is).

 

On 2/5/2022 at 10:56 PM, Frustration said:

 

Additionally in there is a "Unite" dawnshard I feel Odium has to be part of it because of this rough quote from Elantris ".... hatred can unitfy men far more quickly and far more powerfully than devotion ever could."

Eh, I don't think that quote is relevant in this context. Besides it being a pretty biased character's view, that's about unifying people against something - it's still ultimately an "opposition" approach on the larger scale, though it's "unifying" locally.

 

On 2/5/2022 at 10:56 PM, Frustration said:

Why is Whimsy not in Change?

Well, for my model, because there can only be four Shards under "Change", so one or two of the five or six Change-ish Shards have to go somewhere else. Also, if there's really a Wisdom/Prudence Shard, it has to go under something.

(A mental focused Dawnshard - my "Think" - makes the analogy with the Allomantic table a bit closer, but that wasn't really the reason why.)

It could also work if you split out the unbinding type Shards from Change - Endowment, Cultivation, Invention, Whimsy under Change; Ruin, Odium, Autonomy, and an unknown Shard under something like "Unbind". Then Wisdom/Prudence would go under "Be" where I put Autonomy.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, cometaryorbit said:

Eh, I don't think that quote is relevant in this context. Besides it being a pretty biased character's view, that's about unifying people against something - it's still ultimately an "opposition" approach on the larger scale, though it's "unifying" locally.

considering it names a shard in the same line I feel Brandon put a lot of thought into it.

2 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Well, for my model, because there can only be four Shards under "Change", so one or two of the five or six Change-ish Shards have to go somewhere else. Also, if there's really a Wisdom/Prudence Shard, it has to go under something.

I can only think of four(Ruin, Cultivation, Preservation, Whimsy)

Some peolple put Invention in there but I don't understand that.

[cometaryorbit]

37 minutes ago, Frustration said:

considering it names a shard in the same line I feel Brandon put a lot of thought into it.

Oh I think there's thought put into it, it's just that the Derethi faith is more of Dominion so they are going to "put down"/devalue Devotion. 'Of course we're better at uniting'. I don't think it's anymore fundamentally true than the Fused's "Adhesion isn't a real Surge" sour grapes.

Quote

I can only think of four(Ruin, Cultivation, Preservation, Whimsy)

Some peolple put Invention in there but I don't understand that.

Invention is presumably about inventing new things. I guess "Create" could be considered distinct from "Change" (of basically existing things) but I don't think there are four Creation Shards. Also, the term "power of creation" for Investiture/Adonalsium in general, and the way Ruin and Preservation can create together but not individually, also kind of biases me against a 'Create' Dawnshard. So it would probably need to be Change.

If Honor is about bonds, not just honor in the usual sense, then all the emotion/act of will Shards probably have a broader meaning than the obvious. Odium is consistently described in terms of 'burning', so I think Odium has an aspect of "inflaming" things, heightening them in a destructive or oppositional way, turning them against one another (the grain of truth behind his claim to be Passion - and while it's not true, I don't think it's 100% a lie either, as Dalinar feels rage and desire coming from Odium as well as hate). That would make him a Change shard.

[Kandrafish]

19 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Oh I think there's thought put into it, it's just that the Derethi faith is more of Dominion so they are going to "put down"/devalue Devotion. 'Of course we're better at uniting'. I don't think it's anymore fundamentally true than the Fused's "Adhesion isn't a real Surge" sour grapes.

Invention is presumably about inventing new things. I guess "Create" could be considered distinct from "Change" (of basically existing things) but I don't think there are four Creation Shards. Also, the term "power of creation" for Investiture/Adonalsium in general, and the way Ruin and Preservation can create together but not individually, also kind of biases me against a 'Create' Dawnshard. So it would probably need to be Change.

If Honor is about bonds, not just honor in the usual sense, then all the emotion/act of will Shards probably have a broader meaning than the obvious. Odium is consistently described in terms of 'burning', so I think Odium has an aspect of "inflaming" things, heightening them in a destructive or oppositional way, turning them against one another (the grain of truth behind his claim to be Passion - and while it's not true, I don't think it's 100% a lie either, as Dalinar feels rage and desire coming from Odium as well as hate). That would make him a Change shard.

Perhaps I am splitting hairs here, but Odium certainly can change, but I think he is more of a change tangential shard. Odium is not about physical change. It is not about physically making things better. In a way, it is more powerful, it is about emotional change. Strong, burning, motivational, emotions are not the same as physical change.

 

 

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

I can only think of four(Ruin, Cultivation, Preservation, Whimsy)

Some peolple put Invention in there but I don't understand that.

Here is a part model for the 4 essential physical change shards. Because they represent physical actions, they are always all in the outer circle of my allomancy tables. The emotional shards take the inner circle.

I am working on this model on the premise that Frustration is correct in the belief that Vin controlling Preservation could have, theoretically, just as easily have destroyed Cultivation as she did Ruin. (Shortened to "Frustration's Cult-Ruin Postulate" in the doc title)

 

I hope to have 4 sets of 4 shards like this built from this starting point. The other parts of the model are not finished, yet.

[cometaryorbit]

If Whimsy is a "Change" Shard, not a mental / thinking one, it might be something like this...

Change (Cause change in the world, positively or negatively) / [Temporal Quadrant?]

Cultivation

Ruin

Whimsy

Endowment

 

Be (Cause things to exist, remain, and be separate from other things) / [Physical Quadrant?]

Preservation

Autonomy

Mercy

Ambition

 

Enact or Bind (Cause your decisions to become effective and binding, imposing your will or virtues on the world) / [Spiritual Quadrant?]

Honor

Odium

Devotion

Dominion

 

Envision (Understand the world, and envision what could be, or should be) / [Mental Quadrant?]

Valor

Invention

Prudence

(Unknown Shard, possibly something like Secrets?)

 

I don't really like Valor under Envision, though Courage is a mental thing...

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 2/6/2022 at 4:23 AM, Kandrafish said:

"I am FREE" - Ruin

On 2/7/2022 at 5:18 PM, cometaryorbit said:

though I also thought about a model with an "Unbind/Separate" Shard, leaving the "Change" Dawnshard for more positive change (Cultivation, Endowment, Invention, and maybe Whimsy)

This quote from Secret History feels relevant:

Quote

Nothing can be destroyed, Kelsier, Ruin’s voice whispered, intruding directly into his mind. That’s something humans can’t understand. All things merely change, break down, become something new … something perfect.

This "something new ... something perfect" thing is super reminiscent of the way Change (and Transformation, which is always described in very similar terms to the Dawnshard) are talked about. I can't really see Ruin not being Change.

In general I think this is something that narrows down Change a lot more from the full list of Shards that could fall under the umbrella – imo the way it's been portrayed is that it's not just the vague concept of things changing, it's the idea of becoming new, something better (with "better" of course being highly up for interpretation, as we see with Ruin's "something perfect" speech). (This is also why I can't see Pres fitting it: Preservation is diametrically opposed to the idea of remaking things so fundamentally. It doesn't want things to become new things, it wants things to remain themselves and last.)

With the Push/Pull topic, if such a thing exists (I don't have a strong opinion either way) I don't think that Ruin and Preservation would be it. Like, it's not "iron pulls metals closer, steel keeps them the same distance away" or "zinc flares emotions up, brass keeps them from changing", which is to me what a Ruin and Preservation pair would be. Steel and iron both move metals, just opposite directions, and zinc and brass both change emotions, just pulling the slider to different sides. It makes more sense to me if it's, say, Ruin and Cultivation for example.

Dominion and Autonomy, I'm more ambivalent on. It feels like it falls in the same bucket to me as Preservation and Ruin, but also doesn't feel quite as off to me for a reason I can't explain. Something about them both potentially having this theme of sovereignty and control over yourself makes me kinda like it, but I still am not sure I love it.

As for Devotion, there's a pretty... interesting... quote in Elantris about the pool:

Quote

The water held Raoden in a cool embrace. It was a thing alive; he could hear it calling in his mind. Come, it said, I give you release. It was a comforting parent. It wanted to take away his pain and sorrows, just as his mother had once done.

Come, it pled. You can finally give up.

No, Raoden thought. Not yet.

I don't think it's a coincidence that this is so close to the way Odium portrays itself. I don't know if they're a pair, or if there's a full quadrant with this kind of thing going on or what (I could see Mercy and perhaps Valor fitting such a theme as well), but it's... curious.

[cometaryorbit]

4 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

This "something new ... something perfect" thing is super reminiscent of the way Change (and Transformation, which is always described in very similar terms to the Dawnshard) are talked about. I can't really see Ruin not being Change.

Yeah, I think you are right. The only reason I was going that direction for a while is I saw more than four "Change" Shards. But if either Invention or Whimsy gets moved to the "Think" or "Envision" (mental-quadrant) Dawnshard, and Odium gets moved to the spiritual-quadrant Dawnshard ("Enact" or "Bind") then it works.

I agree Odium doesn't fit this 'something new, something perfect' idea of Change. Invention kind of does, though... maybe Invention should be under Change and Whimsy under "Envision"/"Think"?

[Fritochip]

What if it is more of a table like this.

	Time/Change	Relationship/Connection	Power/ Determination	Emotion/ Identity
Growth	Cultivation	Devotion	Ambition	Valor
Stability	Preservation	Honor	Dominion	Whimsey
Decay	Ruin	Autonomy	Mercy	Odium
Transformation	Invention	Endowment

You could still have a circle with Quadrants, but each position of each quadrant would represent Growth, Stability, Decay, and Transformation. So the Columns are Dawnshards and Rows are the four categories a Dawnshard shatters Adonalsium into. 

Chip

Edited February 25, 2022 by Fritochip