Spiritual Surges?

[Wandering Shade]

So we know that Adhesion can be used by Dalinar and Ishar to mess with Connection, and when that happens its described as Spiritual Adhesion.

But something I was thinking about recently is a scene in WoR, where Shallan convinces Vathah and Red and the others to stop being deserters and to be good soldiers again. Pattern says that she Soulcast them, which Shallan is confused and disagrees about.

Maybe Pattern is right and Shallan did Soulcast them, but not in the Physical Realm. She Transformed their Spiritual selves, just slightly.

Once I made that connection I started thinking about the other Surges. When Venli uses Stoneshaping she was able to communicate with the stone of Ur, something which seems like not normal Stoneahaping. But maybe she was using Spiritual Stoneshaping, rather than Physical Stoneshaping, making a Connection between her and the stone.

 

Do all Surges have Physical and Spiritual versions? Do they have Cognitive versions?! Please help me here hahaha

[Truthwatcher94]

Maybe. We can connect this with their Orders’ resonances just like with the Windrunners’ version of spiritual Adhesion with their number of squires. Their Surges or rather the combination of one Order’s Surges affects their “extra” ability. Then they also have their generally acceptable “characteristic” of their members. Like for the Elsecallers, most of their numbers were scholars (probably people who think logically before acting out), although with a few exceptions. IIRC, Lightweavers’ were described as, aside from most of them were artists, they were also sources of optimism or inspiration to the other Orders. It’s just like their thing. I can’t really remember the reference for this, but I believe this was either written in the in-world book of WOR or carved on those gem thingies in Urithiru. Windrunners have their extra number of squires (resonance) and are considered to be militaristic to a fault (character). Lightweavers have mnemonic abilities (resonance) and are inspirational (character). And so on… 

The Surges’ Physical “version” is obviously their power to influence the natural laws of Roshar. The Spiritual side might be their Resonances? And their Cognitive would leave us with their characteristics as part of one specific Order? 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Truthwatcher94

[LewsTherinTelescope]

20 minutes ago, Wandering Shade said:

something which seems like not normal Stoneahaping

It actually does seem to be pretty normal, the Ars Arcanum talks about it a lot too.

[Frustration]

34 minutes ago, Wandering Shade said:

So we know that Adhesion can be used by Dalinar and Ishar to mess with Connection, and when that happens its described as Spiritual Adhesion.

Is it ever described in text as "Spiritual Adhesion" I can't find it anywhere other than from fans.

40 minutes ago, Wandering Shade said:

But something I was thinking about recently is a scene in WoR, where Shallan convinces Vathah and Red and the others to stop being deserters and to be good soldiers again. Pattern says that she Soulcast them, which Shallan is confused and disagrees about.

Maybe Pattern is right and Shallan did Soulcast them, but not in the Physical Realm. She Transformed their Spiritual selves, just slightly.

I think this is more Pattern not understanding Humans, not something magical, as Brandon describes it more like glimpsing, Shallan is seeing their Spiritual selves, not changing them.

Spoiler

Zmann966

So, in Oathbringer, we see the Surge of Adhesion used in an interesting way, Spiritual Adhesion. Do all the Surges have non-Physical manifestations like that?

Brandon Sanderson

All the Surges do, slightly, in fact, but none of them, I would say, are as Spiritual as that. 

Zmann966

What about like, Shallan in Words of Radiance with her mercenaries? So, like, a Spiritual Transformation? 

Brandon Sanderson

I wouldn't say Transformation, she is seeing a little bit, glimpsing a little bit, does that make sense? 

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

 

24 minutes ago, Truthwatcher94 said:

Maybe. We can connect this with their Orders’ resonances just like with the Windrunners’ version of spiritual Adhesion with their number of squires. Their Surges or rather the combination of one Order’s Surges affects their “extra” ability.

Adhesion doesn't play a role in Windrunners resonance other than being one of the two abilities needed to form it, it's not a blending, but a bonus.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Is it ever described in text as "Spiritual Adhesion" I can't find it anywhere other than from fans.

It's in Oathbringer, when he's speaking to the Azish:

Quote

“Don’t be coy,” Dalinar whispered. “I’ve spoken new languages in the visions. You can make me speak Azish.”

The Stormfather rumbled in discontent. That wasn’t me, he finally said. It was you.

“How do I use it?”

Try touching one of them. With Spiritual Adhesion, you can make a Connection.

 

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Adhesion doesn't play a role in Windrunners resonance other than being one of the two abilities needed to form it, it's not a blending, but a bonus.

Brandon's actually specifically described it as a "melding" before. Very minor Era 2 spoilers:

Spoiler

Quote

The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Being a savant has to do with using Investiture a lot, and it's starting to permeate your soul. Like we've ta--

Argent

So he's more a savant with both of--

Brandon Sanderson

He's used them a lot, and they are changing his soul, and so the powers are morphing and changing. Just in slight, little ways. You're not gonna see a whole bunch. But you can imagine these two separate powers are kind of becoming one to him.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Brandon's actually specifically described it as a "melding" before. Very minor Era 2 spoilers:

  Hide contents

 

Well two specific powers are needed for each specific resonance, but looking at the powers themselves you won't be able to find the resonance, nor would you be able to find the powers by looking at the resonance.

Spoiler

Wetlander

In addition to the two abilities given by each Surge, does a Knight Radiant Order have a third blended ability, the interaction of its two given Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

Not specifically as phrased there, but each Order has quirks that are unique to it. They are magical quirks, but it's not necessarily a blend of the powers.

Wetlander

So Shallan's Memories is kind of a...

Brandon Sanderson

Is associated with her Order, yes.

Wetlander

It's not just because she had that wonderful ability, and Pattern came along and went, "Oh, I like this one!"

Brandon Sanderson

No that is not necessarily what attracted Pattern.

Firefight Seattle UBooks signing (Jan. 6, 2015)

 

“The effects here are more subtle than they are when mixing Surges on Roshar, but I am convinced that each unique combination also creates something distinctive. Not just two powers, you could say, but two powers … and an effect. This demands further study. ”

—Khriss.^[1]

We see this in the fact that resonances can be used without investiture, as they are passive abilities, and how Lightweavers resonance(memories) don't have anything to do with Illumination or Transformation

[HSuperLee]

We've definitely had a few conversations about spiritual surges a few times on this forum. The thing I always wonder though is why we assume that Shallan's inspiration wasn't a spiritual use of the surge of illumination. After all, she's making their ideal (spiritual) selves visible. In other words, she's illuminating them. Similarly, when Renarin heals someone, as per Adolin in RoW, they see a brief impression of their ideal self. And Renarin doesn't have the surge of transformation, but he does have illumination, at least in some form. That's a fascinating overlap there. 

Now, I wouldn't be surprised if Shallan was using a combination of surges, so that she's using illumination to reveal their ideal selves, then giving them the ability to transform themselves to get closer to that. In a similar manner, Renarin would be illuminating their ideal selves, then progressing them towards it, usually in the form of healing.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

9 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

The thing I always wonder though is why we assume that Shallan's inspiration wasn't a spiritual use of the surge of illumination.

Mainly because Pattern directly refers to it as Transformation, I assume.

Quote

“You are lies and truth,” Pattern said softly. “They transform.”

“What does that mean?” It was hard to sketch with only the light of Salas to see by, but she did her best.

“You spoke of one Surge, earlier,” Pattern said. “Lightweaving, the power of light. But you have something else. The power of transformation.”

“Soulcasting?” Shallan said. “I didn’t Soulcast anyone.”

“Mmmm. And yet, you transformed them. And yet. Mmmm.”

[Wandering Shade]

21 hours ago, Frustration said:

We see this in the fact that resonances can be used without investiture, as they are passive abilities, and how Lightweavers resonance(memories) don't have anything to do with Illumination or Transformation

Emphasis mine.

I disagree strongly about this point. I think Windrunners having extra Squires is totally a thing of Spiritual Adhesion and Gravitation. A Windrunner is capable of having more Squires, a type of bond which is a form of Connection which Spiritual Adhesion manipulates. As for Gravitation, I see a Knight Radiant as a star with their squires as planets circling them. Sure, that's a bit more of an artistic interpretation than a purely logical one, but I think you get my point. Spiritual Gravitation draws more Squires to a Windrunner while Spiritual Adhesion allows for extra Squires via Connection. It could even be the other way around, with Adhesion Connecting them with more people while Gravitation allows more Squires to "orbit" the Windrunner.

Its fully passive, but its a combination of having those two powers.

As for Lightweavers, I think that their Memories can also be described as a combination of Illumination and Transformation. They take in the world around them, the sights and sounds, and crystalize them in their mind. Illumination, Transformation.

And unfortunately we don't know the Resonances of the other orders, which is REALLY ANNOYING. I feel like Brandon has cooled on the idea of Resonances as a whole and feels like they make things too complicated. Or maybe he just can't think of them for the other orders, which is fair. Hell, we might have actually seen the Resonances of the other orders and just don't know it yet.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Wandering Shade
Clarifying my point

[+Invocation]

12 minutes ago, Wandering Shade said:

I disagree strongly about this point. I think Windrunners having extra Squires is totally a thing of Spiritual Adhesion and Gravitation. A Windrunner is capable of having more Squires, a type of bond which is a form of Connection which Spiritual Adhesion manipulates. As for Gravitation, I see a Knight Radiant as a star with their squires as planets circling them. Sure, that's a bit more of an artistic interpretation than a purely logical one, but I think you get my point. Spiritual Gravitation draws more Squires to a Windrunner while Spiritual Adhesion allows for extra Squires via Connection. It could even be the other way around, with Adhesion Connecting them with more people while Gravitation allows more Squires to "orbit" the Windrunner.

Its fully passive, but its a combination of having those two powers.

As for Lightweavers, I think that their Memories can also be described as a combination of Illumination and Transformation. They take in the world around them, the sights and sounds, and crystalize them in their mind. Illumination, Transformation.

And unfortunately we don't know the Resonances of the other orders, which is REALLY ANNOYING. I feel like Brandon has cooled on the idea of Resonances as a whole and feels like they make things too complicated. Maybe he just can't think of them for the other orders, which is fair.

Brandon has said there's something extra for Radiant resonances beyond just a a combination of their two Surges, but it's not entirely separate. Hooray for a continued mystery.

Quote

Argent

There is a person on the forums who noticed that Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah seems to have a really powerful, kind of, geolocation thing going on, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on?

Brandon Sanderson

There is something supernatural going on. Each Order... Well, how about this. If you look at the scholar interpretations, there are some scholars who think that these things are not supernatural, in the past, and some who said they definitely are. But many, if you look, many Lightweavers had powerful mnemonic abilities.

Argent

So it's definitely tied to the Orders?

Brandon Sanderson

It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with Order, things that do not add up from simple the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires... is abnormal for the Windrunners.

Argent

And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeeeaaaah... some Orders don't have them, [that] is the difference.

Argent

 But some have more?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

 

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Wandering Shade said:

Emphasis mine.

I disagree strongly about this point. I think Windrunners having extra Squires is totally a thing of Spiritual Adhesion and Gravitation. A Windrunner is capable of having more Squires, a type of bond which is a form of Connection which Spiritual Adhesion manipulates. As for Gravitation, I see a Knight Radiant as a star with their squires as planets circling them. Sure, that's a bit more of an artistic interpretation than a purely logical one, but I think you get my point. Spiritual Gravitation draws more Squires to a Windrunner while Spiritual Adhesion allows for extra Squires via Connection. It could even be the other way around, with Adhesion Connecting them with more people while Gravitation allows more Squires to "orbit" the Windrunner.

Its fully passive, but its a combination of having those two powers.

As for Lightweavers, I think that their Memories can also be described as a combination of Illumination and Transformation. They take in the world around them, the sights and sounds, and crystalize them in their mind. Illumination, Transformation.

I always feel like the Windrunners one is forced, the reason for multiple squires is thematic, they are leaders, they're elder siblings, their purpose is to gather people around them.

And I feel a stretch to even consider the Transformation and illumination elements in Lightweavers

2 hours ago, Wandering Shade said:

And unfortunately we don't know the Resonances of the other orders, which is REALLY ANNOYING. I feel like Brandon has cooled on the idea of Resonances as a whole and feels like they make things too complicated. Or maybe he just can't think of them for the other orders, which is fair. Hell, we might have actually seen the Resonances of the other orders and just don't know it yet.

It was always a small thing rather than something important. And Brandon has confirmed that we will see them more in Era 3

[EnderW420]

Edgedancers have a sort of enhanced ability to communicate, right? Picking up slang easier, the fact that they were described as one of the most well-spoken orders, etc. Could that be a sort of Spiritual Abrasion, where their ability to connect with people goes more... smoothly?

It may be a pun but it also may be correct is all I'm saying.

[Wandering Shade]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

I always feel like the Windrunners one is forced, the reason for multiple squires is thematic, they are leaders, they're elder siblings, their purpose is to gather people around them.

And I feel a stretch to even consider the Transformation and illumination elements in Lightweavers

It was always a small thing rather than something important. And Brandon has confirmed that we will see them more in Era 3

Yeah, Resonances aren't really on the same scale as the Surges in terms of power, so its fine that we don't see them all. I'd like to, but if they're not super important then we don't have to see them in the books. But if that's true, then Brandon doesn't need to be as coy about them as he has been, so Resonances seem to me to be important in one way or another.

Yes, Windrunners are leaders who gather others around them. But their ability to do so is greatly enhanced by their resonance. I personally think that having the resonances be just thematic to the orders and not have anything to do with what surges they have is somewhat antithetical to Brandon's Hard Magic writing style.

But yeah, if you disagree about the Memories being a combo of Transformation and Illumination, that's fair. I can see why. It makes sense to me, but if you think its a stretch I understand that.

Either way, we've kinda gotten off track from Spiritual Surges. From what yall have said it seems like all Surges have a Spiritual component, but they're not really able to be used actively by the Radiant, unless its a Bondsmith. Cause Bondsmiths break all the rules.