Chanting in Dakhor

[Benkinsky]

SPOILERS for SA, Mistborn, and Elantris. Not sure if this should be a post on the Sel Topic.

 

So, I was doing some reading on the Coppermind, and noticed something on the Page for Dakhor.

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Chanting is also used and the chants are likely used to determine how the person is changed, and what type of bone growths form.[9][10]

(source: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Dakhor)

The Dor

now, I'm pretty sure I saw a WoB once that I can't find right now, I'd be happy if someone found it, that said that every magic on Sel was powered by the Dor aka by BOTH Dominion and Devotion, not just one. Most people who've read Mistborn assumed Dakhor was a counterpart to Hemalurgy and AonDor to Allomancy, with one being powered by Ruin/Dominion and the other by Preservation/Devotion. Good vs Evil, yes.

But that's not how the Dor is or works. WoB told us that every magic has the mix of both shards as a power source, so AonDor uses Dominions Investiture just as much as Dakhor uses Devotions.

But now that we know what we know from RoW, what if that's just initially true.

what if it should be "every challening (for lack of a better word) accesses the Dor initially, not just one shard.", and what the Dakhor Monks do by chanting is messing with that.

Rythms

Honor, Cultivation and Odium all have a Rythm. There are Rythms for the mix of them (The Rythm of War, for example).
This is a Cosmere-wide phenomenon, as far as we know. Ruin's pulses from the Well of Ascension are similar to the Rythms, we know that.

If my meh-tier understanding of all the magiphysics in RoW is correct, Navani and Raboniel could use the Rythms of Odium and Honor respectively to influence the shards investiture, their flow, and their combination.

The Rythm of Dominion

The simple conclusion here would be: The Dakhor monks chant the Rythm of Dominion to use specifically Dominions Investiture/Investiture aligned to Dominion for their magic.
But even if we say the WoB "It's always Dor" still holds true, Selish magic is all about Keys. I think the Bones of Dakhor monks are more like the Aons on Plates that you can reactivate than the Aons you draw into the air. The making of a hyper-specific Key is the chanting itself, where different chants/rythms influence what kind of mix of Devotion and Dominion is channeled into a bone, thus deciding what kind of twisting the bone will do.

 

Okay, aluminum foil hats on. The next points are all based on my initial theory (Dakhor chanting uses the Rythm of Dominion and maybe that of Devotion), and are wilder.

1. Anti-Investiture

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Dakhor can also grant the ability to negate Aons drawn by Elantrians,[21] though it is also possible for Dakhor to be negated by AonDor.[22] Another Dakhor ability is resistance to attacks from the Dor.[17] This power requires the deaths of fifty people and thus is rarely given. It is unknown if the ability to negate Aons and the resistance to Dor attacks are two separate abilities or both tied to the same type of bone shape.

(source: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Dakhor)

The Anti-Tones, from my understanding, sound the same as the Tones, but technically they are inverted, and it's the Intent that matters. I doubt that Dakhor chanters know "what we're doing is channeling the Anti-Tone of Devotion", but I assume an Intent like "we want this to block AonDor" could be enough to create Anti-Dor properties. Is Anti-Investiture how Dakhor monks can be resistant to or negate AonDor magic?

Counterpoint: We've seen some pretty violent reactions when the lights meet. So either the violent reaction here happens in the cognitive realm, Dakhor blocking the Aons from even channeling much Investiture, or there's no Anti-Investiture involved.

Then again, Anti-Light is described very similar to how Skaze are described, so maybe Dominions Investiture inherently has features similar to Anti-Investiture.

2. Svrakiss

Next crackpot thesis: Svrakiss are Dakhor monks or Dakhor sacrifices. It is those that have a sufficient attunement to Investiture aside from their connection to their home country to come back as Cognitive Shadows.

Now, we don't even know that Svrakiss even exist. But lets assume they do, and take what knowledge we have:

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The Svrakiss are mythological enemies of Jaddeth (...) believed to be half-ghost and half-demon.^[2]

According to Shu-Dereth, the Svrakiss are the souls of men barred from entrance into heaven for hating Jaddeth in life,^[1] and so are condemned to wander Sel, bitterly cursing their fate and preying on the living.^[2] The Derethi believe that they had the ability to take over the bodies of living men and control their actions.^[1] (...) The Svrakiss are considered to be a representation of absolute evil.^[2]

The Svrakiss were initally a Svordish concept that was adopted by the Derethi.^[2]

Let's go in order.

1. half-ghost and half-demon. Sure sounds like Cognitive Shadows.

2. souls of men barred from entrance into heaven. -> don't enter the beyond because they're so invested that they don't pass on initially - or maybe at all.

3. Taking over bodies of living men and control their actions. If that doesn't scream Dominion, i don't know what does.

4. older concept than Shu-Dereths presence in Svorden. That's actually very neat for us. We know a) Elantris already existed when Shu-Keseg split and b ) Elantris the city is older than the splintering of Dominion and Devotion. We don't have a timeline, but it could be that the mythology of Svrakiss comes from a time before the Dor came to be.

Another thing I want to highlight is the wording from this WoB:

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Questioner

Can someone be sacrificed for both Hemalurgy and the magics of Dakhor simultaneously?

Brandon Sanderson

So this is going to require the soul being ripped apart, so it depends on what pieces of the soul are left and how easily you can capture them. That's a theoretical possible-- possibility... Know that most of the horrors of Dakhor are twisting a soul not stealing a soul.

(Emphasis mine, source: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3-firefight-chicago-signing/#e48)

"Twisting" is exactly the vocabulary used for the bones of Dakhor monks, which from what we know are the key to Dakhor magic, and, as I've theorized, are influenced by Rythms. Now, this wording might be a coincidence, but I think it's possible that it isn't.

Which leads me to my theory:

Svrakiss today (when Elantris takes place) are either former Dakhor monks or specifically monks that have been sacrificed in Dakhor ritual.

To further explain: Svrakiss in general are Cognitive Shadows based on Dominions Investiture, and some kind of mistwraith-spike-construct and/or Nahel-Bond parallel stuff happens for them to take over living bodies. Since D&D were shattered, Svrakiss don't really come to be anymore, since Cognitive Shadows don't happen in the Plasma that is the Dor, and since Dor users aren't aligned to Investiture in the same way that someone burning a metal or holding a lot of Stormlight might be. (I admit, this point is a bit iffy, we just know very little about the mechanics here and about the Dor). However, a Dakhor user or sacrifice would be so aligned to and filled with Dominions investiture due to the chanting that when they died or were sacrificed, they don't pass on into the Beyond directly ("barred from entrance into heaven") but rather become Svrakiss, still connected to the physical realm, half-ghosts and half-demons.

What I'm saying is if Svrakiss are real, the very rare nature of sole-Dominion-aligned people dying might explain why they're so rare that no on-screen-character so far has seen one (aside from maybe Suit...).

Counterpoint: The Cognitive Shadows we know aren't super affected by whose investiture they're using as shadows, from what we've seen. Second, maybe Svrakiss could also just be Dor-Cognitive-Shadows. Or something closer to the Threnody Shades than the Heralds and Returned. But, importantly, we only know the Shades as being from post-Ambitions-death, while Svrakiss mythology might be older than the splitering of D&D.

 

Aluminum foil hats off. Again, the last two points are very out there. The first one, I think, might not be. I'm pretty sure that whenever the Elantris sequels come out and we learn more about Dakhor, the chanting will tie into the cosmere-wide phenomenon that are rythms.

 

[CryoZenith]

This is a very interesting theory. I think most of it has merit, there are only two pinpoint things that I moderately to strongly disagree with. First:

1 hour ago, Benkinsky said:

1. Anti-Investiture

(source: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Dakhor)

The Anti-Tones, from my understanding, sound the same as the Tones, but technically they are inverted, and it's the Intent that matters. I doubt that Dakhor chanters know "what we're doing is channeling the Anti-Tone of Devotion", but I assume an Intent like "we want this to block AonDor" could be enough to create Anti-Dor properties. Is Anti-Investiture how Dakhor monks can be resistant to or negate AonDor magic?

There are two main reasons why I think Dakhor has nothing to do with anti-investiture (as in, maybe you can use Dakhor to make anti-investiture, but this hasn't actually happened yet):

1. There are a bunch of cosmere-aware and realmatically-aware Elantrian worldhoppers out there like Galadon. If the monks had developed a way to make anti-investiture, even if the monks didn't notice that's what they were doing, *someone* would've noticed. And if *someone* noticed, that information would've had time to spread amongst the other Realmatic Scholars by now (keep in mind that chronologically speaking Elantris predates the other Cosmere books by quite a bit). As in the current present, anti-investiture is not a well known fact about Arcana, this is evidence against.

2. The one time we've witnessed anti-Investiture being produced so far, the Intent required was very crisp and precise: it was the Intent to make an anti-tone. It wasn't something fuzzy like a generalistic Intent to block a certain magic system. This is admittedly weaker evidence against but it does count for something.

I think the more plausible explanation as to how Hrathen's enchantment works is that it's analogous to a normal-Dor type computer virus that scrambles other normal-Dor type programs. So it's more like how A-Copper counters A-Bronze than like how anti-voidlight counters voidlight.

Quote

However, a Dakhor user or sacrifice would be so aligned to and filled with Dominions investiture due to the chanting that when they died or were sacrificed, they don't pass on into the Beyond directly ("barred from entrance into heaven") but rather become Svrakiss, still connected to the physical realm, half-ghosts and half-demons.

What I'm saying is if Svrakiss are real, the very rare nature of sole-Dominion-aligned people dying might explain why they're so rare that no on-screen-character so far has seen one (aside from maybe Suit...)

The most Invested person that we've ever seen die on-screen so far has been Rashek. And Rashek had a very easy time passing onto the Beyond. Considering how insanely Invested Rashek was, the idea that an average Svrakiss is more Invested than Rashek was is highly implausible. As far as we know, being highly Invested when you die allows you to resist the Beyond, but it doesn't "bar you from" the Beyond in any mechanically meaningful sense.

[Benkinsky]

8 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

I think the more plausible explanation as to how Hrathen's enchantment works is that it's analogous to a normal-Dor type computer virus that scrambles other normal-Dor type programs. So it's more like how A-Copper counters A-Bronze than like how anti-voidlight counters voidlight.

Glad you like the theory. Your points to the Anti-Investiture parts are very fair, and I'm inclined to agree. Even though I feel like Galladon and other 17th Sharders would very much want to keep the knowledge of Anti-Investiture hidden if they had it, if some Selish Scholars had it this early in the timeline (which I forgot is where Elantris is), Khriss and others would have known about it much earlier. And true, the Intent that Navani and Raboniel had was very precise.

The Computer-Virus / A-Copper-A-Bronze analogy is more probably, I agree there.

Now, to the second part:

11 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

Considering how insanely Invested Rashek was, the idea that an average Svrakiss is more Invested than Rashek was is highly implausible. As far as we know, being highly Invested when you die allows you to resist the Beyond, but it doesn't "bar you from" the Beyond in any mechanically meaningful sense.

You are right here. However,  I think we can't compare Rasheks death to an invested persons death on Sel. I maybe should have added this in the original post.

The Cognitive Realm around Sel is seriously stormed up. We don't know the details, but it sure is. A lot of stuff that usually happens in the Spiritual Realm happens in the Cognitive Realm here, while things that are usually tied to the Cognitive Realm (Location-based things, sentient concepts) seem to happen, atleast somewhat, in the physical realm too. TL;DR in a bit:

longer explanation:

Rashek was for sure more invested than any Dakhor Monk we've seen, and will probably remain the most invested person on screen aside from Godkings for a long time too. I think a Dakhor-user or Dakhor-sacrifice would be more like Elend, who had a direct connection to preservation due to the Lerasium, and stuck around a bit, and then moved on to the Beyond.

What I'm trying to say is, what happened with Elend and Rashek how I understand it was this:

Be invested in the physical realm -> Die -> the amount of investiture in your soul/spiritweb keeps you in the cognitive realm for a while longer -> move to the beyond

or, in the case of Kelsier:

Be invested in the physical realm -> Die -> the amount of investiture in your soul/spiritweb keeps you in the cognitive realm for a while longer -> load up on Investiture and connect to something (I'm not sure if Kelsiers connection to Scadrial comes from bathing in the shardpool of a shard that's invested there, from being worshipped there, or from dying and living there) -> don't move on to the beyond (-> find something to connect you to the physical realm if you want to act there, like a spike or bond)

Mix that with the fact that the realms are weird around Sel, the planet itself is invested/sentient?, and magic is location-dependent. When you die on Sel, I believe you either move on to the Beyond directly or get vaporized the instant you appear in the Cognitive Realm, your investiture joining the Dor again and you, uhm, move on, I hope. What I'm proposing is that for Dakhor/Svrakiss it would be like this:

Be invested in the physical realm -> Die/get sacrificed -> the amount of investiture in your soul/spiritweb combined with your connection to the location keeps some kind of Cognitive Shadow of you sticking around in the physical realm even though your body is burned out. Your soul is "twisted" and part of the invested landscape now. You're too loaded up on investiture to fully die, not dead but not alive either. (-> find a body to posess/dominate if you want to act in the physical realm.)

Maybe i should coin the term "physical (cognitive) shadow", but that sounds weird. Something like a Radiant Spren without a bond, not quite in this realm, not quite not there either.

i should have explained that better from the start, I hope it's clearer now.

TL;DR:

realms are shifted on Sel. The physical realm has properties of both the "normal" physical and "normal" cognitive realm, while the cognitive realm has properties of the "normal" cognitive and "normal" spiritual. Wheras on other planets, when you die invested, your consciousness holds out in the cognitive realm a bit longer before you move on, on Sel, that might not be the case. Uninvested souls would just pass on basically instantly, and even heavily invested souls probably would. My theory is that a "twisted" soul would be connected to the physical realm so much, that it would stick around there even when its body dies, rather than in the Cognitive Realm. That would be what a Svrakiss is.

[CryoZenith]

Hm, I see. So it wouldn't be just that Svrakiss were heavily Invested when they died, but heavily Invested PLUS heavily Connected to the Physical realm at the same time. And the Cognitive Realm around there would contribute by essentially being a pressurized barrier holding you in. Yeah, I could buy that.

[Benkinsky]

16 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

So it wouldn't be just that Svrakiss were heavily Invested when they died, but heavily Invested PLUS heavily Connected to the Physical realm at the same time. And the Cognitive Realm around there would contribute by essentially being a pressurized barrier holding you in.

yeah, pretty much. Well put.

[cometaryorbit]

On 1/22/2022 at 9:15 AM, CryoZenith said:

The most Invested person that we've ever seen die on-screen so far has been Rashek. And Rashek had a very easy time passing onto the Beyond. Considering how insanely Invested Rashek was, the idea that an average Svrakiss is more Invested than Rashek was is highly implausible. As far as we know, being highly Invested when you die allows you to resist the Beyond, but it doesn't "bar you from" the Beyond in any mechanically meaningful

Vin and Ati were even more Invested (Vessels for a full Shard) and they both passed on. Kelsier and Vin's conversation in Secret History makes it clear she could have stayed, but didn't- being super Invested lets you stay but doesn't force it.

But people on Threnody who are killed by shade withering presumably don't usually want to become shades. So there is a way to involuntarily become a Cognitive Shadow... it just can't be based on how Invested you are at the time of death, since there's no way shade withering involves more than a full Shard worth of investiture.

(Also, the "barred from heaven" thing could just be a myth - svrakiss could be voluntary Cognitive Shadows. That story might just have arisen to explain their existence in a Jaddeth-centered religion.)

 

[CryoZenith]

27 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

But people on Threnody who are killed by shade withering presumably don't usually want to become shades. So there is a way to involuntarily become a Cognitive Shadow... it just can't be based on how Invested you are at the time of death, since there's no way shade withering involves more than a full Shard worth of investiture.

I mean, it could just be that Threnodite shades could go into the Beyond if they wanted to, but they have issues with "wanting" things because they aren't exactly sapients with agency anymore, they're shades.

Quote

(Also, the "barred from heaven" thing could just be a myth - svrakiss could be voluntary Cognitive Shadows. That story might just have arisen to explain their existence in a Jaddeth-centered religion.)

This is very plausible.

[cometaryorbit]

2 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

I mean, it could just be that Threnodite shades could go into the Beyond if they wanted to, but they have issues with "wanting" things because they aren't exactly sapients with agency anymore, they're shades.

Hmm, could be. I suppose I was kind of thinking that shades are probably suffering and wanting pain to end probably doesn't require more than an animal level of cognition. But on further thought there's no actual evidence they are suffering, especially if they are not cognizant enough to remember what they have lost.

6 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

This is very plausible.

Thank you!

If they are going to present Jaddeth as a monotheistic deity then svrakiss can't be empowered by a foreign God's power/Investiture. And they are seen as evil so they can't be his. So they have to be presented as "damned", I think.

[+Bzhydack]

On 22.01.2022 at 2:16 PM, Benkinsky said:

Counterpoint: The Cognitive Shadows we know aren't super affected by whose investiture they're using as shadows, from what we've seen. Second, maybe Svrakiss could also just be Dor-Cognitive-Shadows. Or something closer to the Threnody Shades than the Heralds and Returned. But, importantly, we only know the Shades as being from post-Ambitions-death, while Svrakiss mythology might be older than the splitering of D&D.

So, Svrakiss are able to posess people. Weve seen this in other place, and im surprised you didnt bring this here.

Yep, the Fused.

Fused are Cognitive Shadows who posess Singers bodies to have eternal life in Material Realm, when they dont have body they are on Braize (or Roshar in Everstorm, this is not clear) in their spren form. Very similar to Svrakiss, but those seems to be more spren-like and posess only in certain circumstances.

So maybe Svrakiss were some sort of Inspiration for the Fused?

[cometaryorbit]

It seems very similar to the Fused, yes. But perhaps the mechanism would be a bit different, since I think Fused use the singer body's gemheart, and humans don't have that.

Kelsier on Scadrial found a way to get a new body, but that seems to have used Hemalurgy. The end of Bands of Mourning suggests there's some other kind of body-possessing thing on Scadrial now... but since it seems to be of off-world origin, perhaps that's the same kind of being that inspired the Svrakiss stories.

[Benkinsky]

14 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

But perhaps the mechanism would be a bit different, since I think Fused use the singer body's gemheart, and humans don't have that.

yes. I was very tempted to mention Fused too @Bzhydack but I personally dislike the theory that Svrakiss ARE Fused from when Odium was there killing D&D, But I wouldn't be surprised if there were similarities, if Kel learned something from Sel, or, as Bzhydack said, the Svrakiss might've been some kind of inspiration.

I feel like if any kind of Cognitive Shadow would have an easy time posessing bodies it would be ones created with DOMINIONs Investiture. And maybe very devoted Indidivuals/Vessels can make it easier to be posessed too. I really wonder if it's a bond-type thing or if the posession is more like the Fused version, basically killing the Person(s spiritweb) who inhabited the body before.

There's also Szeth. Who, as far as I know, we still don't know how Nale "stapled" him back to his body.

[CryoZenith]

59 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

There's also Szeth. Who, as far as I know, we still don't know how Nale "stapled" him back to his body.

It has been confirmed he used a regrowth fabrial, right?

[Benkinsky]

I checked again, he did use some kind of Fabrial to heal Szeth before his soul had passed on? Makes me wonder if we'll get to see a Flashback in Szeth's book of hanging in Shadesmar before his death.

[cometaryorbit]

2 hours ago, CryoZenith said:

It has been confirmed he used a regrowth fabrial, right?

Yes, and Szeth is not a Cognitive Shadow- unlike Kelsier and Fused. His soul is kind of messed up since he was close to the time limit, but not a Shadow.

[CryoZenith]

5 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yes, and Szeth is not a Cognitive Shadow- unlike Kelsier and Fused. His soul is kind of messed up since he was close to the time limit, but not a Shadow.

Yup, I think a lot of the confusion people have is because of the conversation Vasher and Kaladin have in RoW chapter 15, where Vasher says Szeth is a cognitive shadow. It's hard to tell without context that he might be wrong on that.

[Bnaya]

On 22.1.2022 at 3:16 PM, Benkinsky said:

SPOILERS for SA, Mistborn, and Elantris. Not sure if this should be a post on the Sel Topic.

 

So, I was doing some reading on the Coppermind, and noticed something on the Page for Dakhor.

(source: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Dakhor)

The Dor

now, I'm pretty sure I saw a WoB once that I can't find right now, I'd be happy if someone found it, that said that every magic on Sel was powered by the Dor aka by BOTH Dominion and Devotion, not just one. Most people who've read Mistborn assumed Dakhor was a counterpart to Hemalurgy and AonDor to Allomancy, with one being powered by Ruin/Dominion and the other by Preservation/Devotion. Good vs Evil, yes.

Sorry to interrupt, but don't Dominion is of the elantrians and Devotion of the derethi? ”merciful domi" etc.

Edit:turn out my assumption was wrong:

BrandonColevander

Are [Jaddeth] & [Domi] the Shards Dominion & Devotion?

Peter Ahlstrom

Domi is more Devotion and Jaddeth is more Dominion. But there is some mixing. The shard holders were Aona and Skai.

General Twitter 2015 (Feb. 19, 2015) Edited February 1, 2022 by Bnaya
I was wrong

[Honorless]

You think the Skaze might be made of Anti-Investiture due to the similarity in their description and gemstones containing Anti-Voidlight. Reasonable enough, could be that Dominion's anti Tone was used by Odium against him.

Are you wondering if the Dakhor chants involve Dominion's anti Tone? Oh wait, you think Devotion and Dominion might've been opposites or at least almost as much as Preservation and Ruin were, got it. It's possible, and given that the Dor is both of the Shards combined, it's possible that the chant uses both Tones.

It's the origin of the Svrakiss theory I really like! As far as I can recall, the only other theory that I can remember was that the Svrakiss are the Cognitive Shadows of the people who were unfortunate enough to be twisted by the Dor when they died or were in the Cognitive Realm when Odium stuffed the Shards there. Them being the twisted souls of Dakhor Monks would be twisted irony. It's possible, especially since Svrakiss are specifically a Fjordell legend.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Honorless

[Benkinsky]

20 hours ago, Honorless said:

Are you wondering if the Dakhor chants involve Dominion's anti Tone? Oh wait, you think Devotion and Dominion might've been opposites or at least almost as much as Preservation and Ruin were, got it. It's possible, and given that the Dor is both of the Shards combined, it's possible that the chant uses both Tones.

I rather think they use a) Dominions pure Tone or b ) Devotions Anti Tone, to make sure they channel explicitly Dominion. That's not based on much, just speculating that that's what might be happening when they chant. Not sure if you could "seperate" Dor investiture like that. It probably has it's own tone, maybe even a different one per country, like the central rune.

20 hours ago, Honorless said:

It's the origin of the Svrakiss theory I really like!

thanks ^^

20 hours ago, Honorless said:

Them being the twisted souls of Dakhor Monks would be twisted irony.

right? And we've already seen one example of Wyrn using something heretic because its advantageous, so it wouldn't be super out of character.

[cometaryorbit]

I don't see Devotion and Dominion as being opposites in the sense Preservation/Ruin are. I think those were only able to unite because of being held by a person who was unusually equally Connected to both (Sazed's Connection to both is called out specifically in Mistborn: Secret History). Since the Dor merged without a Vessel, I think they're more "naturally" compatible.

Devotion and Dominion are opposed in a sense, but really similar in another - they're both about unity. Ruin and Preservation are direct opposites - entropy vs stasis, destruction vs protection, decay vs preservation. Devotion and Dominion are pretty opposed in terms of people's behavior (rule by force vs unity by love) but not so much conceptually. I think seeing Devotion as just "love" may miss the point, looking at how Seons behave - I think Devotion may also contain a component of "service". Devotion's style of love doesn't necessarily imply romantic love or a relationship of equals; one can be Devoted to a ruler or a cause or a religion, something one sees as above oneself and holding Dominion.