Kelsier Shard question

[TypicalShard]

I'm a little confused about how Kelsier can read the thoughts of people after his ascension. I thought shards didn't have that ability no matter what. I think I have misunderstood something, but there is another instance that seemed to confirm Shards could not read peoples minds in SA. 

"He could hear their thoughts like voices."  

"'Remember yourself' Marsh's thoughts whispered." <- this is what Kelsier hears. 

"The boy's thoughts drifted to Kelsier..."

Also because I was thinking about making a post just for this anyway: Fuzz needs more appreciation.

[+Invocation]

Scadrial has some shenanigans happening that allow for it. I'm going to spoiler tag this because I don't remember if this is knowledge from SH or not and if it where it was, and my copy is currently loaned out so I can't check.

Spoiler

The original duo behind Preservation and Ruin created the planet and all its people wholesale, so they have a much stronger Connection to Shards that allows for some things happening (like that) that normally can't. 
Related:
 

Quote

Cadmium (paraphrased)

We've seen someone with a Hemalurgic spike communicate or under the control of Ruin or Harmony... Can other Shards communicate or control those individuals?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. Good Question. Yes...  They can certainly communicate...

Cadmium (paraphrased)

To what extent?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not to the extent that Ruin did. The others could communicate but it'd be vague or faint, not as direct as Ruin was. He connects to us, well, them through the little bit of Preservation that he had or could touch. Because the spike pierces the soul.

Cadmium (paraphrased)

What about on other planets than Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It'd work the same way. but again probably vaguer or fainter. Might go unnoticed.

Shadows of Self Houston signing (Oct. 7, 2015)

 

 

[Trusk'our]

18 hours ago, Invocation said:

Scadrial has some shenanigans happening that allow for it. I'm going to spoiler tag this because I don't remember if this is knowledge from SH or not and if it where it was, and my copy is currently loaned out so I can't check.

  Hide contents

The original duo behind Preservation and Ruin created the planet and all its people wholesale, so they have a much stronger Connection to Shards that allows for some things happening (like that) that normally can't. 
Related:
 

 

 

Spoiler

So what this quote is saying is that while other Shards could control or communicate with a Hemalurgic construct, they'd be less effective than Ruin? Guess that would mean that Marsh wouldn't be as vulnerable as I originally assumed, if he decided to Worldhop.

 

[TypicalShard]

14 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

  Hide contents

So what this quote is saying is that while other Shards could control or communicate with a Hemalurgic construct, they'd be less effective than Ruin? Guess that would mean that Marsh wouldn't be as vulnerable as I originally assumed, if he decided to Worldhop.

 

So I'm assuming, because Preservation put more of itself into the souls of mankind that they created only it can hear thoughts. While Ruin, who put less in cannot, right? 

[Trusk'our]

40 minutes ago, TypicalShard said:

So I'm assuming, because Preservation put more of itself into the souls of mankind that they created only it can hear thoughts. While Ruin, who put less in cannot, right? 

I'll need to go look at the antonations for the exact quote, but I remember it says that Ruin is naturally invasive, while Preservation is the opposet; due to the Intent of each Shard, only one can listen to thoughts while the other can speak within your mind.

[Trusk'our]

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I'll need to go look at the antonations for the exact quote, but I remember it says that Ruin is naturally invasive, while Preservation is the opposet; due to the Intent of each Shard, only one can listen to thoughts while the other can speak within your mind.

Alright, I'm now on my laptop and was able to find the quote.

Quote

kilomtrs

So in the trilogy, we see that when someone has a Hemalurgic spike implanted in them, they can hear Ruin talking to them, both as a vision and in their head. However, we learn in the Hero of Ages that Ruin cannot hear a person's thoughts no matter how much under Ruin's influence they are.

In Alloy of Law, we see that Wax (and other Pathians) uses an earring to "pray" to Harmony, and we see that Harmony can hear his thoughts and respond.

So I guess this leads to three questions: How does Harmony hear the thoughts of Wax, when it's explicitly pointed put that Ruin cannot?

Are the earrings that the Pathians use Hemalurgically charged, as otherwise they would be of no use to Ruin, and therefore Harmony?

Or did Harmony completely change how that aspect of Hemalugy works?

Brandon Sanderson

How this all works dates back to the original design of the magic system.

I wanted Ruin and Preservation to be complementary opposites, like many things in the Mistborn world. Allomancy, for example, has Pushes and Pulls were are less "negate one another" opposites, but instead two sides to the same proverbial coin.

Ruin is invasive. The power is more "Yell" than "Listen." The philosopher would probably have some interesting things to say about the masculine symbolism of Hemalurgy and its spikes.

Ruin can insert thoughts. That power, however, can't HEAR the reactions. It's about invasion.

Preservation, however, is the opposite. Preservation listens, Preservation protects. (Perhaps to a fault--if there were no Ruin, there would be no change to the world, and life could not exist.) Because of this, Preservation can hear what is inside people's minds. It cannot, however, INSERT thoughts. (This is important to the plot of Hero of Ages.)

Harmony is both, the two complementary opposites combined. And so, he inserts thoughts with Ruin and still uses Hemalurgy. He can also listen.

Yes, Wax's earring is Invested. (Or, in other terms, it's a Hemalurgic spike.)

bettse

Doesn't that imply it was shoved through someone's heart at one point (ala Steel Inquisitor creation process)?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, the metal would have to have been part of a spike that at one point was used to kill someone and rip off a piece of their soul.