Champions (Possible Spoilers)

[Dakhor Savant]

WoK pg 1246 last page of Dalinar "You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain."

So I am new but I have look through most of theses forums and found nothing discussing this topic.

First the most obvious one. Vin was the champion of preservation, but why? Who was it before and what makes you eligible?

Preservation: I think that before Vin the lord ruler was the one who was the champion of Preservation. think about it he lived in a more or less perfectly preserved world for 1000 years. Then when he was killed he wasn't fighting for anything he was just moving to kill her. But she was fighting to keep herself and all those she loved alive. Preservation saw this and granted her the chance to preserve through the mist that powered her Allomancy.

Ruin: His champion at the end was obviously Marsh. Given so many Hemalurgy spikes and his intent to become a steel inquisitor had been almost entirely to destroy and ruin the system that was in place. But I don't think he was the Champion in the first book. I believe that in his weakened state Ruin chose Kelsier as his champion that explain how through his careful plan Kel was able to incite the people of both sides to turn on the lord ruler even if it meant ruin for them. Also I believe that this is how Kel got the power to kill the Steel inquisitor, his intent was entirely to destroy to prove a point. Now back to Marsh he was the strongest Inquisitor at the end of the book but under ruins control he managed to ruin, Ruins plan when he pulls the earing and allows Vin to become Preservation. I think with this we can see a champion stand for what his shard but can act against the holder. this may be why Honor thinks that they could have a chance if Odium chose a champion.

Aona: From what I have read around these sites her shard was pretty much Devotion/Compassion . So all the people who were devoted to the trade/work/way of life where chosen by what little was left of Aona and take by the Shoad. Roaden being the most compassionate and devoted learn about the AonDor and when he can finally use it is the Champion based off of how he embodies the Shard.

Skai: This one is a little harder cause from what I have read we aren't sure what shard he held. With the information I understand I think that the shard is probably envy or greed. That is why Dilaf has become so powerful and advanced so quickly with the power. Also with this in mind I believe that this was what gave Hrathen the strength in the end embodying his shards power and focusing it through his Dakhor arm. giving him the strength to kill the arrogant Dilaf. I don't have the book on hand right now but from what I remeber one of Hrathen's last dieing thoughts was his unrequited love for her that Roaden had been given.

I am not sure what the shard is or could be but I believ that what ever it was it is what gave Hrathen the power to kill Dilaf; just like Dalinar stopping a Chasmfiend's claw with his bare hands as he held up him Honor through his pact.

Honor: Honor Binds. I believe that the champion of Honor will be Dalinar but there in no champion yet. I see it as he was enchanted though his Armor that was of honer to uphold his oath to protect the King. The Knights Radiant show more of the binding power that is given to the chosen few, but I believe the Shard armor is powered also by honor to protect and bind the holder.

Odium: I see Szeth as the most probable Champion of Odium. Odium doesn't have a Champion but thats who I believe he will chose for multiple reasons. First the Ghostblood seem to be working towards there goals in a very dishonorable and evil way. They more then likely will be blessed with the power that Odium provides if he ever does. Szeth now works with them to achieve there goals. The Shard blade I believe is made by Odium in a agreement with Honor to create tools of war. The Blade does the opposite of what I see as binding if it his something nonliving it cuts through it separating the material around it in moments. When it hits something living it releases/separates the soul to the creature. This could also explain why Sly and Kaladin don't like them. Add these two parts up and through in Szeth personality. Szeth does things he doesn't like he is against cause of the false honor he holds to his control stone. He seems to have no real honor and he loaths himself while using the blessing of Surgebinding to ensue distrust and hatred.

Endowment: I am not really sure much about this one but I would just assume Warbreaker is the Champion. Though I think Susebron might be more in the future events beyond the book.

Cultivation: I don't think this one has been shown to us at this point.

So anyone have any ideas, thoughts to further this idea anything to add? Any one got anything that shoots down any of my thought any things you would change? Is it a decent idea or a waste of time to look at?

[CrazyRioter]

and Elend was Preservation!Vin's champion. We definitely see that Marsh was Ruin's champion at the end, when Elend sees a trail of black smoke enveloping him. Or something, I don't have my books so I can't provide the exact quote.

[darniil]

What chapter is that WoK quote from? My version doesn't have a page 1246.

[CrazyRioter]

it's the very last chapter before the epilouge.

[Thor]

While I agree with the concept of the idea, it is important to note that the quote is:

You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain.

Emphasis added. This suggests, to me, that there won't always, nor need there, be a champion for a particular Shard. A Shard can choose one, but they do not have to have one. I agree completely on Vin-Preservation(Leras), Elend-Preservation(Vin) and Marsh-Ruin, as these three are pretty obvious. And if Marsh is still alive in AoL (which I think Brandon confirmed?) then I think it is safe to assume that he is Harmony's champion. However, I don't think that any of the other known Shards have champions at the time of their novel(s) (I think the Shard with the best shot of having a champion is Endowment, most likely being Vasher.)

I think the biggest reason why Honor suggests that they force Odium to choose a champion is that it will limit Odium's power to destroy/change the world, as he will be focusing some of his power onto a mortal, instead of slinging his power around destroying mankind. Additionally, it is rather difficult to kill an incorporeal, near-diefic creature unless you are an INDC yourself; killing a mortal who has been strengthened by that creature is much easier (though reaaaallllly hard.) The quoted line seems to suggest that Odium does NOT want to use a champion, for some reason.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I think there's a lot more to it than just picking a Champion and giving them power. There seems to be a certain amount of grooming and planning going on behind the scenes. Vin was chosen to inherit Preservation's power from birth if not earlier. Brandon has made a few references saying that there's stuff we're not seeing.

Also, it seems that picking a Champion is probably how Shards do confrontation without literally destroying each other like Ruin and Vin did.

[happyman]

This---is awesome. It explains an awful lot about Mistborn, actually, especially towards the end.

I suspect that choosing a champion has multiple side-effects. One is almost certainly that the champion has an increased affinity for the Shard's magic system. Another would probably be that the Shard can directly power the Champion in ways that would not be possible for the average magic user. This would explain a lot about the final fight between Elend and Marsh. On the other hand, though, I suspect that if a Shard does choose a champion, it limits other ways it can influence the world, even while giving it "hands-on" access that it otherwise would not have.

[Ari]

Hmm, that's interesting, I was wondering if choosing a champion had something to do with the Oathpact and the nature of the conflict between Odium and Honour, but it definitely makes sense to think of Vin as a champion of Preservation. This is definitely something to keep an eye on to see if there are some mechanics we can glean.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Ari

[PeterAhlstrom]

Mwa ha ha ha ha.

[CrazyRioter]

Mwa ha ha ha ha.

you are evil and I love you.

[Captain Cosmere]

Evil laughter from someone in the know. Hmmm. I wonder if that means that we are completely off the track on this one. Not that it's ever stopped me before...

But in any event, I would dearly love to know more about the rules by which the shards/shardholders are bound. I wonder if we've seen any indications of what the rules may be, either in WoK or other published works. I realize that this thread is speaking specifically about choosing champions, but I find the comment about being bound by some rules even more intriguing, if less specific.

I have so many questions about this. Is there a specific action that could be taken by Kaladin that would, in effect, force Odium into choosing a champion? The following comment about being bound by some rules would seem to imply that. And is the comment "but it is not certain" stating that getting Odium to choose a champion is not certain or, what I consider more likely, that is it not certain that it would work well for Kaladin even if Odium did choose a champion? Extremely interesting stuff.

[lordofsoup]

A champion is risky. Odium is certain to pour his power into him or her, but there is not mind behind Honor to put power into him. Granted it happened to Vin without a mind, but she had been chosen as the champion from before her birth, and was slated to become the next Preservation. If you choose the wrong champion, it could end badly.

[Zas678]

I'm trying to decide. Why was Vin able to take the mists? Is it because she was chosen as Preservation's champion?

So that raises a question for me- would Marsh be able to draw upon the "black mists" that Vin sees near the Well? Or is he not a True Champion? I don't think that Marsh could've drawn upon those mists, and so I don't think that Marsh was a True Champion. I think he was more of a Prime Pawn.

1. In the most recent Hero of Ages annotation, you said that Preservation chose Vin to be the recipient of the power, just as Preservation had chosen Alendi previously (thus, this was why Ruin had manipulated the Prophecies). Was Alendi also chosen precisely sixteen years before the Well of Ascension's power returned?

ANSWER: Yes. He was chosen exactly sixteen years before, but he was a bit older then Vin when he was chosen.

There's a lot more going on behindthe scenes than even the author of these epigraphs knows. Reasons why Vin waschosen, and why the power of Preservation needed a new mind to control it.

The author is right in thatPreservation did need someone to control its power, and it did seek fora host in which to invest itself. It began this search with what mind it hadleft about sixteen years before the return of the power to the Well ofAscension, just as it began a search for a new host before the return of thepower the previous time.

Unfortunately, just as Ruin tookcontrol and manipulated Alendi, he took control and manipulated Vin.

Why? Vin, as was Alendi, were both chosen to be Champions 16 years before they went to the Well. That seems to be an awfully long time of grooming and getting ready. Maybe Leras was just really careful, or maybe he really wanted to emphasize the number 16 to them, but maybe not. Maybe it's one of the things that binds the shards.

I just think that there's more to being a Champion then being a Prime Pawn.

EDIT- I accidentally wrote Alethi instead of Alendi. Thanks Ari!

[Ari]

I'm trying to decide. Why was Vin able to take the mists? Is it because she was chosen as Preservation's champion?

So that raises a question for me- would Marsh be able to draw upon the "black mists" that Vin sees near the Well? Or is he not a True Champion? I don't think that Marsh could've drawn upon those mists, and so I don't think that Marsh was a True Champion. I think he was more of a Prime Pawn.

If being a champion is a thing shards intrinsically know about, I don't think Vin being a champion could explain why she could burn the mists before she was attuned. Sazed's epigraphs in Hero of Ages are written after he takes up the shards, so unless this is something all shards learn about when they "get older", I don't think it can explain that particular mystery.

Why? Vin, as was Alethi, were both chosen to be Champions 16 years before they went to the Well. That seems to be an awfully long time of grooming and getting ready. Maybe Leras was just really careful, or maybe he really wanted to emphasize the number 16 to them, but maybe not. Maybe it's one of the things that binds the shards.

I just think that there's more to being a Champion then being a Prime Pawn.

I think you're confusing Alendi, the "Hero of Ages" from Rashek's birth era on Scadrial with Alethi, which is a nationality in Way of Kings.

[lordofsoup]

I am confused, If what you say is the case Zas then the only time that a Shard could choose a champion was when its owner was dead, and the Champion could burn the Shard's power. I think that a champion has to be a person that the Shard chooses to invest its power into. It doesnt make sense if the champion has to be able to use the power without the Shardholder present.

A little off topic, but how do you think that Kelsier factors into the discussion of champions. He took up Preservation for a short time, and though he was not being groomed to take up Preservation's power like Vin, it could be argued that he was the Champion of Ruin during the rebellion, fighting to change the Lord Ruler's Final Empire.

[Dakhor Savant]

K wow I should have gotten back to this awhile ago.

First: of all I think one of the main reason to get Odium to choose a Champion is to stop Odium from making a giant storm that just kills everyone. I think Honors plan is more to force Odium to take more stake invest more of himself thus he can't just leave without losing anything. Having a champion would probably take some of his power. It might leave him open to have so some one else can take over the shard buying Honor more time. Last The champion doesn't seem to have to follow his/her shards will. Vin though wanting to preserve acted against Preservation and released Ruin from his prison. Marsh resisted Ruin almighty grasp with allowing brief moments of him acting against ruin. The Heralds turned there back on there brother and abandoned there oath.

Second: I think that the Shards of Adonalsium don't have much to do with the oath pact. I believe that is only with Honor and his Heralds. Which brings up an interesting point. Is it possible that all of the Heralds are Honors Champions. Is it possible to have more then one.

Third: Hitting on Mistborn ideas... I think all the spikes given to Marsh are his empowerment from Ruin. I have yet to really form a concrete Idea but I think Ruin focuses on blood not actually metal. Metal is Preservation's power that ruin is using on this world to take power.

Fourth: I believe that Roaden could be the Champion of Aona's shard. and He might bea ble to peace it back together. I think that a champion will be chosen to take the place of a Shard who has lost it holder. Like how Preservation had to sit an watch the world while it slowly gained back its power. I think the other shards like Dominion and Devotion will be able to work again after they gain a new holder.

Anyone agree or disagree. think somethings off or obscured I like to see any opinion on this.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Dakhor Savant

[callumke]

I think, for Odium, his Champion has not yet been born. One of the epigraphs from tWoK struck me.

“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.”

- Chapter 57 Epigraph

This sounds like Odium's champion to me, and one of the characters will have a chance to kill him/her, but won't because at that point the child is innocent. "Life before death" etc.

ANYWAY it sounds like a shard doesn't need a champion. I agree on Preservation (x2) and Ruin at the end of HoA, but I don't think we have enough evidence to say that anyone else we have seen is a Champion. If that's even a concept off of Roshar and away from the oathpact.

[name_here]

I don't think Vin and Elend were Champions in the same manner as Honor is talking about. Getting Odium to pick a Champion in the same style would be counter-productive, because Vin, Elend, and Marsh allowed their respective Shards to effect the world without being subject to a straight power-block by the other.

For Honor and Odium, I figure that they made some sort of deal, and while they both have Champions they're restricted to only using their Champions, their creatures, and whoever their Champions can get to sign up. This would be a good thing because Honor is in no shape to be countering Odium, but Dalinar is capable of stabbing The Blightwind right in the face if need be yet incapable of doing anything if Odium declares every day to be Earthquake Day.

I don't think Szeth is Odium's Champion, because he's bound to his Oathstone, a binding restriction on what he does and not at all the sort of thing that agrees with being the Champion of anyone but Honor, Shard of doing things because you promised to.

Edited December 2, 2011 by name_here

[Arachiel]

I think Adolin is going to be Odium's champion. Just look at the end of WoR. You can see the seed of jealousy starting up now that his father, his younger brother, his fiancee, and his bodyguard are all Radiants (and now he'll be completely overshadowed). And then he goes and kills Sadeas out of complete rage and hatred (and no honor, I might add). Also, as a side note, I feel like Sanderson is going to make Kaladin and Shallan a couple eventually, and that can only happen if Adolin falls. Adolin was Dalinar's heir, was the golden boy of the Kholins, but now that he's being overshadowed, how do you think he'll feel? Bad, very bad. And that's when Odium will pounce. It won't happen immediately, but you can see it start with the end of WoR.

[lordofsoup]

Zas I think that Champion is the proper term for what Elend was to Preservation and Marsh to Ruin.  They were being directly fed the Shard's powers as they battled because the Shards could not come into close contact with each other.  I think Vin would be better described as an heir.  It seems to me like Vin's situation is unique, where as a new champion can be chosen regularly.

[Left]

I think I like you're theory although I'm still not convinced that Hono'rs talk of champions is something we've seen in other places before. One thing is that we know that Skai is Dominion. I personally think that when Dominion was shattered by Odium it might have been corrupted somehow making it more evil.

[Lord Tavash Shar]

I think I like you're theory although I'm still not convinced that Hono'rs talk of champions is something we've seen in other places before. One thing is that we know that Skai is Dominion. I personally think that when Dominion was shattered by Odium it might have been corrupted somehow making it more evil.

 

This would be interesting as it could mean Odium could corrupt other shards intent without taking them on. That would certainly make sense for things like what we saw of the skybreakers in WoR. Invest himself a little in a shattered shard and Viola, Nobody can pick it back up. He becomes the only god once he does it 15 times so loosing a little power is not a big deal.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

This would be interesting as it could mean Odium could corrupt other shards intent without taking them on. That would certainly make sense for things like what we saw of the skybreakers in WoR. Invest himself a little in a shattered shard and Viola, Nobody can pick it back up. He becomes the only god once he does it 15 times so loosing a little power is not a big deal.

Why would Odium investing himself in a Shard stop others from picking it up?

Can a Shard invest in another Shard?

[Lord Tavash Shar]

Why would Odium investing himself in a Shard stop others from picking it up?

Can a Shard invest in another Shard?

 

I don't know if its Possible.

 

As for why: If you could corrupt the Intent of a few pieces of a shard just enough then some one having the personality/willpower to force it back together seems like it would go from Astronomically hard to Incalculably hard. Insuring that no one can pick the whole thing up and rise to god status to challenge you.

 

Edit: As I was. I do think its Possible for one shard to invest and or mess with the Investiture of another.

As Examples I'm going to Site Hemalugy: "The spike, now containing a fragment of stolen Spiritweb, is then ripped out and embedded in the recipient, stapling the ability directly into their sDNA."

No where does it imply that the stolen fragment is now end negative, Just the Donor/Grafting process 

Example 2: Spren: Most spren consist of the essences of Honor and Cultivation, or a mixture of both that leans towards either one Shard or the other.

This strongly imply's to me that Investiture can be combine/spliced with other investiture. While that may be difficult on a Mortal level on a Shard level its probably a lot Less so.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Lord Tavash Shar