Vin(Diesel) Posted December 21, 2021 Posted December 21, 2021 You need a significant connection to a Shard to become a vessel of that Shard, right? Does that mean that you would need connection to all Shards to become a vessel of Adonalsium? Or would you need connection to Adonalsium somehow? Something else? This might limit who could ascend to Adonalsium quite severely, depending on the answer to my next question. In order to have a connection to a Shard, do you simply need to act in line with that Shards intent, or do you need to connect with it on some other level. For instance, could someone from Roshar be really devoted on Roshar, then travel to Sel and ascend to Devotion (assuming anyone can ascend to Devotion), or would you have to be really devoted on Sel and connect with Devotion's investiture there before you could ascend? If you need to be on the same planet as the Shard, which I think you would, then only worldhoppers could conceivably ascend to Adonalsium. And what worldhoppers have become solidly Invested from Shards on multiple worlds? As far as I recall, we only know of one: Hoid. Hoid has access to Surgebinding, Awakening, and Allomancy, and possibly other Invested arts. Does this have something to do with Hoid's goal? Is Hoid trying to ascend to Adonalsium? This seems out of character for Hoid, who has never shown interest in ruling others, but perhaps he has motivations we don't know about. Whether Hoid is trying to ascend to Adonalsium or not, he may end up being the only person who can, and I suspect that when it is both necessary and possible, he will do so. Hoid will become Adonalsium. What do you think? Do you need connection to all Shards to become Adonalsium? If so, what kind of connection? Does this suggest anything about Hoid?
Quantus he/him Posted December 21, 2021 Posted December 21, 2021 You need more than just a Strong Connection to the Shard to become the Vessel, you need the Strongest Connection to it, usually meaning you have to grab it when it has no Vessel. The Lord Ruler, for example, was able to Ascend by gaining enough Investiture from the Well but didnt actually become a Shardic Vessel and get control of the Shard itself, he just used up a cache of Investiture that had been trapped in the Physical Realm.
lukaash Posted December 21, 2021 Posted December 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Quantus said: You need more than just a Strong Connection to the Shard to become the Vessel, you need the Strongest Connection to it, usually meaning you have to grab it when it has no Vessel. The Lord Ruler, for example, was able to Ascend by gaining enough Investiture from the Well but didnt actually become a Shardic Vessel and get control of the Shard itself, he just used up a cache of Investiture that had been trapped in the Physical Realm. This brings up an interesting idea then for reforming Adonalsium. Someone would need to be so similar to Adonalsium that they could recreate Adonalsium and then assend to that power. On the other hand, they could also just have the strongest connection to all of the shards, but I don't think this is likely. There are a lot of shards with conflicting intent. Cultivation (things changing and growing) and preservation would not mix. Spoiler Mabye you could get a bunch of investiture like Kel did in Secret War, but I don't think that it would be very useful. You would have to kill the vessel first, and then have a connection bomb. Not to mention that you would have to do it around the same time for some of them to avoid conflicting intent. For example, perservation alone probably couldn't pick up cultivation or ruin (without a very special host). So you would need to have an order to the shards you were combining in order to make sure that an intent didn't stop you from taking a new shard.
Vin(Diesel) Posted December 22, 2021 Author Posted December 22, 2021 I thought Leras told Kelsier in Secret History that Spoiler Kelsier couldn't ascend to Preservation and replace Leras because Kelsier didn't have enough connection to Preservation. Kelsier did wield the Shard, but, like the Lord Ruler, he didn't ascend. Why didn't any of the people who wielded Preservation (except the last one) ascend to Preservation?
cometaryorbit Posted December 22, 2021 Posted December 22, 2021 The Lord Ruler is indeed said to have "Ascended". And at least according to kandra beliefs Rashek/TLR, Kelsier, Vin, and Harmony are all said to have "held the power of Ascension" (VenDell, in Ch 3 of Bands of Mourning). TLR held the bulk of Preservation's power briefly, becoming a Sliver afterwards, but was never exactly the Vessel. Kelsier's case is special. He couldn't take up Preservation without help due to lack of Connection - but the Ire's orb bypassed that limit. He was a poor Vessel due to his lack of Connection to the Physical Realm, but I think he really held the Shard, though only briefly. He willingly gave it up to Vin; I don't think it's clear she could have taken it otherwise. 1
Lunu’anaki he/him Posted December 22, 2021 Posted December 22, 2021 15 hours ago, lukaash said: There are a lot of shards with conflicting intent. Cultivation (things changing and growing) and preservation would not mix. If preservation and Ruin were able to mix, I don't see why Preservation and Cultivation could not. 1
cometaryorbit Posted December 23, 2021 Posted December 23, 2021 On 12/22/2021 at 8:30 AM, Lunu’anaki said: If preservation and Ruin were able to mix, I don't see why Preservation and Cultivation could not. They don't strike me as a natural pair - they're neither directly opposed like Ruin/Preservation nor clearly similar. But I think they *could* merge. Kelsier didn't have the right Connection to Preservation, but that orb let him make it work anyway. And the way its worded in Secret History, I think it might be more about the Vessel than the actual Shard(s). So if you could find a person with sufficient Connection to both, or something like that orb, I think you *could* combine any two Shards. But it might not be a very functional combination; Harmony is having trouble acting. Cultivation+Preservation could become a concept like causing change to achieve an original state or perhaps an ideal state, after which change is no longer needed. The first could be Restoration, not sure about the second ... Progress? But that doesn't have the implication of an end state where change stops the way Restoration does. Or that combination could become unable to act (need to change/cause growth vs need to maintain stasis). It might go either way depending on the Vessel. I actually think adding Cultivation to Harmony would work better, balancing out the negative aspects of Ruin and perhaps producing a form of change less directly opposite to Preservation- something where the future grows out of and preserves aspects of the past. 1
Lunu’anaki he/him Posted December 23, 2021 Posted December 23, 2021 1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said: I actually think adding Cultivation to Harmony would work better, balancing out the negative aspects of Ruin and perhaps producing a form of change less directly opposite to Preservation- something where the future grows out of and preserves aspects of the past. I do think this combination would serve well as a "Progression" Shard, Though Cultivation and Preservation alone might be enough to make progress.... hmmmm
cometaryorbit Posted December 23, 2021 Posted December 23, 2021 8 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said: I do think this combination would serve well as a "Progression" Shard, Though Cultivation and Preservation alone might be enough to make progress.... hmmmm Maybe Cultivation + Preservation would be something like Restoration or (lacking a single word for it) Progress toward an Ideal, whereas Cultivation + Preservation + Ruin would be more like Evolution (new things appear, old things die out, but always directly connected to what they were in the past). I think Progression is too much just the change aspect. 2
apepi Posted December 24, 2021 Posted December 24, 2021 I'm not sure that you can recreate Adolalsium again. Like, multiple shards have been splintered, even if you could put them back together, could you put them back to their original intent? I am not sure. And with Harmony existing, could that mess up things? And Cultivation+Preservation is Sustainability. You can have a sustained growth, it would just make sure things are sustainable.
cometaryorbit Posted December 25, 2021 Posted December 25, 2021 10 hours ago, apepi said: I'm not sure that you can recreate Adolalsium again. Like, multiple shards have been splintered, even if you could put them back together, could you put them back to their original intent? I am not sure. And with Harmony existing, could that mess up things? Combining all Shards might not recreate Adonalsium exactly, no. For one thing, we don't know that Adonalsium had a Vessel - merging all Shards in one Vessel would possibly create something distinct from the original Adonalsium. Splintering is reversible per WoB, so I think you could return a splintered Shard to its original Intent, though that might not be the only option (likely depending on the new Vessel, just as how Preservation+Ruin could have become Discord instead of Harmony). Harmony would either have to get the other 14 Shards, or die, or willingly give up his Shard(s).
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