+Oltux72 he/him Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 16 hours ago, Child of Hodor said: It's not clear to me that we've seen voidbinding yet. If the Fused don't do it and Renarin isn't doing it then I don't think anyone is. I do agree with the OP that the power of future sight that Renarin displays is a voidbinding power, but he isn't voidbinding to do it according to the first WoB . The Sanderson can be highly misleading. Technically a Voidbinder according to the chart would have two "Voids" and another resonance. Presumably he could not share his visions and stuff like that and, most importantly, would need to use Voidlight rather than Stormlight. 16 hours ago, Child of Hodor said: Perhaps the end of book 5 will see a change in the Shard makeup like Odium merges with a Shard or is split in half and both Honor and Cultivation each take half. I think Odium needs to be fully integrated in the KR / Surgebinding magic system to alter it to voidbinding. (Scadrial) Spoiler Merging two Shards did nothing to the power sets of the systems. 5 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Honorblades are in fact bonded (yes, WoBs conflict on this, but it was later clarified). Yes, but so are Aviar. Bonds are a common feature of the Cosmere. That a bond is involved tells you nothing about Honor. 5 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Awakening is all about giving away Breath, Endowing part of your life in an object, just as people give Breaths to other people or the Returned. No. (Nalthis) Spoiler That is the way it is mainly used in Hallandren. But that is not the only way. The major example being the girl whom Vasher leads to awakening herself more or less. Now you may argue that that was Endowment's goal as she designed Breaths and Awakening. But that does not mean that these features are inherent in the system itself. On a general note, we need to make sure that we do not mistake a common use of an ability for the most archetypical or a usage or users we have seen most of for the typical, let alone only, usage or users. For example, you can make a case that the majority of Surgebinders on Roshar are Fused. Hence the bond to a Spren tells you nothing about the Surges. The Fused are better Surgebinders. The best Surgebinder beyond comparison is the host of Yelig-nar. 5 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: The Heralds swore an oath to Honor, and received the Honorblades. The oath made them Heralds, if even that. It did not make them Surgebinders. Anybody can pick up an Honorblade becoming a Surgebinder. 4 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: This is a theory, but not confirmed. Arguably, but the Surges clearly predate the oaths. We know for sure that the Heralds are millenia older. We need to look at the traces, relics and odd cases if we want to get at the core of a thing. Just like you cannot reconstruct an ancestral mollusc from an octopus and a slug. You'd arrive at a creature without a shell. OK, that may be an odd example. The first Surgebinders were arguably either Windspren using Adhesion Humans on Ashyn Singers doing that rhythm thing the users of a Dawnshard They all predate the Heralds who were Surgebinders for sure. The Knights Radiant were later, surprising newcomers. You just cannot conflate Knight Radiant and Surgebinder. The Knights Radiant use bonds to spren together with oaths that let them inhale, heal and strengthen from Stormlight give them Shardblades give them Shardplate make them Surgebinders They are a specific kind of Surgebinders. Now, the Voidbinders known from the history of Roshar may be equivalents to Surgebinders of any kind or be the Knights Voidish. We do not know. Yes, there may even be a voidish counterpart of Yelig-nar (Dai-Gonarthis ?), and potentially its host could have thousands of squires. That is mere speculation. The only clues we really have is the chart and Renarin. And those point to an equivalence to the Knights Radiant, suggesting that "Voids" also come in a ring of overlapping pairs and can be gained by a bond with a spren. 1
LewsTherinTelescope Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Arguably, but the Surges clearly predate the oaths. We know for sure that the Heralds are millenia older. Access to the Surges in some capacity does predate the oaths, yes. Access via sapient spren bonding human beings in a fashion that possibly significantly merges the spiritwebs in order to grant vast levels of power, not necessarily. In my opinion, the oaths are mainly needed due to the depth of the bond, in order to align the souls properly so that they don't push each other out. [Mistborn, for some more explanation of the mechanics I'm thinking of] Spoiler Like how the power of Preservation couldn't be taken up by someone wearing a Hemalurgic spike, or like how even with the Connection hack Kelsier's spirit kept repelling the Shard. In my opinion, what the Ideals are is a shorthand way to describe aligning your Identity with that of the concept the spren represents, so that it can get in deeper and deeper, which is something I feel is inherently required for this type of bond but not necessarily for other methods of using the powers like the Honorblades. 7 hours ago, Oltux72 said: The only clues we really have is the chart and Renarin. And those point to an equivalence to the Knights Radiant, suggesting that "Voids" also come in a ring of overlapping pairs and can be gained by a bond with a spren. Agreed, I think this is decently likely. Though, I like the theory that Voidbinding is something that spren of Odium do after being pulled into the Physical by a bond rather than something the person does, like how Glys uses Stormlight to recreate the visions, as opposed to just being the exact same thing as Radiance but with different powers. Edited January 4, 2022 by LewsTherinTelescope used a quote rather than a spoiler, oops
+Oltux72 he/him Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Access to the Surges in some capacity does predate the oaths, yes. Access via sapient spren bonding human beings in a fashion that possibly significantly merges the spiritwebs in order to grant vast levels of power, not necessarily. In my opinion, the oaths are mainly needed due to the depth of the bond, in order to align the souls properly so that they don't push each other out. The problem with that view, and it seems to be a major problem to me, is that the Honor weakened, not strengthened his Surgebinders. Dalinar and Ishar are now Bondsmiths Unchained and are stronger than during Honor's life time. 2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Agreed, I think this is decently likely. Though, I like the theory that Voidbinding is something that spren of Odium do after being pulled into the Physical by a bond rather than something the person does, like how Glys uses Stormlight to recreate the visions, as opposed to just being the exact same thing as Radiance but with different powers. Why?
cometaryorbit Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 9 hours ago, Oltux72 said: For example, you can make a case that the majority of Surgebinders on Roshar are Fused. Hence the bond to a Spren tells you nothing about the Surges. The Fused are better Surgebinders. The best Surgebinder beyond comparison is the host of Yelig-nar. The oath made them Heralds, if even that. It did not make them Surgebinders. Anybody can pick up an Honorblade becoming a Surgebinder. I would argue* that "Surgebinding" as a magic system proper began with the Heralds & Honorblades. Rosharan natural magic does Surge-ish things but IMO is not really a magic system proper (Invested Art?) The Stormfather claims that the Honorblade is the mark of the oath, so I'd say the oath did make them Surgebinders via giving them Honorblades. Later Honorblade use by others is kind of a side effect IMO. IMO, Heralds and KR are using Surgebinding in the "normal" way (per WOB the Surge pairs "are natural to Roshar"), Fused are hacking the system kind of like (Mistborn Era 1) Spoiler Inquisitors getting a picked set of Allomantic powers via Hemalurgy, though normally the system is "one power or all of them". If they were using it naturally, they'd have two powers. Raboniel tells Venli the Fused are better Surgebinders, but she's clearly a biased source. I don't think actual performance bears that out at all. The real advantage the Fused have is holding Voidlight indefinitely & I think that's gemhearts not Surgebinding strength. *and have before - see "Roshar's Natural Magic" thread in my signature.
Frustration Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 10 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: I would argue* that "Surgebinding" as a magic system proper began with the Heralds & Honorblades. What do you call Ashyn then?
cometaryorbit Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 42 minutes ago, Frustration said: What do you call Ashyn then? I think this is a different but related magic system, likely still based on the Surges to some degree ... sort of like how the Metallic Arts are three different systems but share metals and some common powers. Possibly the same disease magic for Ashyn that's been mentioned in WoBs before (flying cities could be Gravitation based). 1
Frustration Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 2 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: I think this is a different but related magic system, likely still based on the Surges to some degree ... sort of like how the Metallic Arts are three different systems but share metals and some common powers. Possibly the same disease magic for Ashyn that's been mentioned in WoBs before (flying cities could be Gravitation based). It was surgebinding
cometaryorbit Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 (edited) Rosharans use Surgebinding more broadly than cosmere aware scholars like Khriss, or Brandon speaking in authorial/out-of-world voice, do. I don't think Ashyn magic is Surgebinding in the latter sense (though Fused Surgebinding *is*, per WoB). When I have more time I'll look for the WoBs on that. Edited January 4, 2022 by cometaryorbit of/or typo
Frustration Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 29 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: Rosharans use Surgebinding more broadly than cosmere aware scholars like Khriss, or Brandon speaking in authorial/out-of-world voice, do. I don't think Ashyn magic is Surgebinding in the latter sense (though Fused Surgebinding *is*, per WoB). When I have more time I'll look for the WoBs on that. WoB Spoiler Ryan Like how Bondsmiths have stronger versions of their Surges, is it possible to have stronger versions of the other Surges, as well? Brandon Sanderson Yes. This is what happened to Ashyn. You can have some very dangerous manipulation of Surges. Waterstones RoW Release Event (Nov. 18, 2020)
LewsTherinTelescope Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 3 hours ago, Oltux72 said: The problem with that view, and it seems to be a major problem to me, is that the Honor weakened, not strengthened his Surgebinders. Dalinar and Ishar are now Bondsmiths Unchained and are stronger than during Honor's life time. They still swear Ideals, though. (In fact, I think the fact that even the "unchained" Radiants like Dalinar go through the process provides further evidence that the concept is intrinsic, because even with Honor's restrictions falling away, it's still there.) 3 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Why? Because it doesn't make sense to me for two of the magic systems on Roshar to be their own thing (Surgebinding and fabrials) and yet the third to only be a variation of one of the first two, and because apparently Voidbinding is a "cousin" to the Nightwatcher's Old Magic, which is a spren who is in the Physical Realm using their powers. (More specifically, I think that traditionally, Voidbinding was mostly just what the Unmade can do when kept awake by their bond to Odium, hence being a "cousin" to the Nightwatcher's boon and curse because they're both just big spren in the PR doing what they do, but that Enlightened spren and perhaps ordinary Voidspren can do similar things when held in the Physical Realm by a bond.) 1
cometaryorbit Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 3 hours ago, Frustration said: WoB Hide contents Ryan Like how Bondsmiths have stronger versions of their Surges, is it possible to have stronger versions of the other Surges, as well? Brandon Sanderson Yes. This is what happened to Ashyn. You can have some very dangerous manipulation of Surges. Waterstones RoW Release Event (Nov. 18, 2020) I don't think that is contradictory. The event that destroyed Ashyn involved "manipulation of Surges", but not necessarily "Surgebinding" in the sense of the Herald/Honorblade system as we know it. This might just be a matter of terminology... but it might be critical. Feruchemy and Allomancy are different systems that use the same sixteen metals. Ashyn magic and Rosharan Surgebinding might be different systems that use the same ten Surges. A key question here is ... are the Fused just hacking the existing system & there are no Adhesion Fused just because Odium doesn't want to make any, or are the Fused using a 9-based one-power-at-a-time Braize native variant form of Surgebinding? I'm thinking the former since WoB says Khriss would consider it Surgebinding, and I'd think being a Braize native 9-based unpaired magic would be enough to count as a distinct system. 2
Infinity Sliver Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 On 12/20/2021 at 0:21 AM, Frustration said: All electromagnetism can be traced back to the photon, and photons move in waves, light wavelengths are a result of this and given RoW I see no reason to assume that lightning generation is outside the bounds of Illumination. explain this cause as far as i know,light is a side effect of electromagnetism,not the other way around. and its not only photons that are responsible for electromagnetism and they dont just move in waves. So im curious as to what you mean
Frustration Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 27 minutes ago, Infinity Sliver said: explain this cause as far as i know,light is a side effect of electromagnetism,not the other way around. Light IS electromagnetism, Photons traveling at specific wavelengths. 32 minutes ago, Infinity Sliver said: and its not only photons that are responsible for electromagnetism What else is? 32 minutes ago, Infinity Sliver said: they dont just move in waves. So im curious as to what you mean No they can move as individual particles as well, but they can and do move in waves, and that's enough.
Infinity Sliver Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 5 minutes ago, Frustration said: Light IS electromagnetism, Photons traveling at specific wavelengths. No,EM radiation(light) is a side effect of electromagnetism 9 minutes ago, Frustration said: What else is? Electrons 10 minutes ago, Frustration said: No they can move as individual particles as well, but they can and do move in waves, and that's enough. yes,they do,but either way,lightning isnt just that,its more potential difference and light or its manipulation of it(surgebinding wise) can't create lightning,or at least im pretty sure. We're all just guessing here
Frustration Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Infinity Sliver said: Electrons Electrons are leptons not Bosons. 1 minute ago, Infinity Sliver said: yes,they do,but either way,lightning isnt just that,its more potential difference and light or its manipulation of it(surgebinding wise) can't create lightning,or at least im pretty sure. We're all just guessing here It's not light but Waves. That's why Lightweavers can make sound.
Infinity Sliver Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 11 minutes ago, Frustration said: Electrons are leptons not Bosons. and? 13 minutes ago, Frustration said: It's not light but Waves. That's why Lightweavers can make sound. My point was that light doesnt just move in waves. And point taken,but my point is that manipulation of light doesnt mean you can manipulate lightning cause lightning is potential difference
+Oltux72 he/him Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 18 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: They still swear Ideals, though. (In fact, I think the fact that even the "unchained" Radiants like Dalinar go through the process provides further evidence that the concept is intrinsic, because even with Honor's restrictions falling away, it's still there.) No, they do not. Dalinar does. Ishar gets the same effect without oaths. Yes, the oaths are intrinsic to the Knights Radiant, who get things from being Knights Radiant, blades and plate, basically. Oaths are not related to Surgebinding as such. Yes, Knights Radiant become better Surgebinders with progression of their oaths. But that is likely historically wrong. They get less restrictions. Quote Because it doesn't make sense to me for two of the magic systems on Roshar to be their own thing (Surgebinding and fabrials) and yet the third to only be a variation of one of the first two, But they are not. Fabrials are an automation of something else. As far as we know anything you can do with a fabrial is taken from another Invested Art. Quote and because apparently Voidbinding is a "cousin" to the Nightwatcher's Old Magic, which is a spren who is in the Physical Realm using their powers. Which Khrissalla speculated not to be the true "Lifelightish" equivalent to Surgebinding. Quote (More specifically, I think that traditionally, Voidbinding was mostly just what the Unmade can do when kept awake by their bond to Odium, The problem is that at least one of them, Yelig-nar, does nothing of that. And they fear the Voidbinders as separate from the Unmade. 1 hour ago, Infinity Sliver said: explain this cause as far as i know,light is a side effect of electromagnetism,not the other way around. and its not only photons that are responsible for electromagnetism and they dont just move in waves. So im curious as to what you mean In quantum mechanics the means by which electromagnetic forces work are virtual photons. Things like the Casimir force suggest that they are more than a mathematical fiction.
Frustration Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 55 minutes ago, Infinity Sliver said: and? And as Leptons they aren't carriers, you can remove all electrons and the Electromagnetic force will still be the same, but if you remove Photons it will cease to function. 15 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: But they are not. Fabrials are an automation of something else. As far as we know anything you can do with a fabrial is taken from another Invested Art. Conjoined gems, water attractors, smoke removers, heat genertors etc.
Infinity Sliver Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 31 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: In quantum mechanics the means by which electromagnetic forces work are virtual photons. Things like the Casimir force suggest that they are more than a mathematical fiction. 18 minutes ago, Frustration said: And as Leptons they aren't carriers, you can remove all electrons and the Electromagnetic force will still be the same, but if you remove Photons it will cease to function. ahhh,we're going quantum mechanics route. that's outside my range,but still i dont see how the manipulation of light via surgebinding can give lightning
+Oltux72 he/him Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Conjoined gems, water attractors, smoke removers, heat genertors etc. Cojoined gems are a result of the property of spren. Nothing of them is an Invested Art of its own. The rest can likely be explained by spren powers. We know from Regals, greatshells and skyeels that there are powers beyond the 16 Surges.
Frustration Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 47 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Cojoined gems are a result of the property of spren. Nothing of them is an Invested Art of its own. The rest can likely be explained by spren powers. We know from Regals, greatshells and skyeels that there are powers beyond the 16 Surges. There aren't sixteen surges
cometaryorbit Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 On 1/3/2022 at 10:43 AM, Frustration said: The way I read it Brandon is saying that "Using Stormlight to power different abilities to Surgebinding" is not Voidbinding. Yep, I think the reason that was answered with "Close, but no" is that "using Stormlight" is not part of the definition of Voidbinding. I'd think you can power it with Lifelight or Voidlight just like Surgebinding can be. The Rosharan Investiture or systems seem to be flexible that way. I'd expect Voidbinding to be a system with ten powers, one relating to the theme of each Surge, but distinct from the ten classic Herald/KR Surgebinding powers. The Surges are rather broad concepts - "Pressure and Vacuum" could potentially do a lot more than we see Windrunners do, "Light, Sound, and Various Waveforms" doesn't have to be limited to illusions, etc.
cometaryorbit Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 50 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: The rest can likely be explained by spren powers. We know from Regals, greatshells and skyeels that there are powers beyond the 16 Surges. I don't think these things are Surgebinding (as a specific magic system) but that doesn't make them unrelated to the Surges (as broader concepts underlying Rosharan System magic). Greatshells and skyeels' weight lightening is almost certainly linked to Gravitation, and Regal powers may be tied to Surges too - the translation could be linked to Bondsmiths' Adhesion, lightning could be Division, the illusion and future sight powers hinted at in the WoR epigraphs could be Illumination linked.
LewsTherinTelescope Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Ishar gets the same effect without oaths. That's because the Honorblades are a special thing. 7 hours ago, Oltux72 said: But that is likely historically wrong. Source? 7 hours ago, Oltux72 said: As far as we know anything you can do with a fabrial is taken from another Invested Art. Heatrials? Painrials? Alerters? Attractors? Conjoiners? 7 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Which Khrissalla speculated not to be the true "Lifelightish" equivalent to Surgebinding. There isn't one, as far as we know. Fabrials, Surgebinding, and Voidbinding are the three systems. Quote Questioner How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen? Brandon Sanderson I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing. (Besides, Surgebinding is of both Honor and Cultivation.) 7 hours ago, Oltux72 said: The problem is that at least one of them, Yelig-nar, does nothing of that. We know very little of how Yelig-nar actually works, but burning up your soul to gain powers could quite possibly be a form of Voidbinding, though not necessarily Surges in particular with non-Yelig-nar things. We know that "all of [the Unmade] have some relevance to precognition", supposedly, so there's presumably a bit more than meets the eye there, since Yelig-nar's power does not have much obvious connection to futuresight. 7 hours ago, Oltux72 said: And they fear the Voidbinders as separate from the Unmade. There's exactly one mention of Voidbinding outside the Ars Arcanum, and basically the only thing we know about it from there is it involves seeing the future in some form. Though, we do know it usually (but not always) "originates with the Unmade": Quote dvoraen "To see the future originates with the Unmade..." "Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future." Is it therefore safe to say that Voidbinding, by extension, also originates with the Unmade? Brandon Sanderson Not always. But usually. And we know Renarin is the first of his kind, so "with the Unmade" can't just mean from Sja-anat's corrupted spren. Quote Wyndlerunner (paraphrased) So Renarin is not a normal Truthwatcher, whether you want to use the term Corrupted or Enlightened. Is he the first of his kind? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes he is. (Also, Sja-anat directly compares her Enlightenment to the Surge of Transformation, and guess what Raboniel was said to have used to corrupt the Sibling? And we know that while it's not quite one-to-one, the Unmade do correlate with the nine non-Bondsmith orders to an extent. So the Unmade having ties to Odious interpretations of the Surges, or "Voids" if you prefer that terminology, seems to be implied imo, and it would make sense if that was similar to the expressions in Voidbinding.) Edited January 5, 2022 by LewsTherinTelescope
Questioner How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen? Brandon Sanderson I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.
dvoraen "To see the future originates with the Unmade..." "Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future." Is it therefore safe to say that Voidbinding, by extension, also originates with the Unmade? Brandon Sanderson Not always. But usually.
Wyndlerunner (paraphrased) So Renarin is not a normal Truthwatcher, whether you want to use the term Corrupted or Enlightened. Is he the first of his kind? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes he is.
cometaryorbit Posted January 6, 2022 Posted January 6, 2022 (edited) Yeah. Given what the Fused say about Adhesion not being a real Surge, the correlation may be more directly to the nine non-Adhesion Surges / nine brands of Fused, thus why it's not quite one-to-one with the Radiant Orders. A few of them seem directly connected, like Sja-anat to Transformation and Moelach to Renarin's version of Illumination. Others are much more vague ... Chemoarish being called "the Dustmother" could suggest a connection to Division or Abrasion, the Dustbringer Surges. Nergaoul's Thrill might be a more Cognitive/Spiritual application of Division, like Dalinar's Connection stuff with Adhesion. Re-shephir's Midnight Essence might be warped Progression. I am not sure what Surge Ashertmarn's removed inhibitions effect would connect to. Cognitive/Spiritual Cohesion, "softening" the soul? But that one's a real stretch. I guess it could fit as the conceptual opposite to Stonewards though since they are all about endurance. Yelig-nar can grant all Surges, so that connection is unclear, but the name "Blightwind" might link him to Windrunners/Heavenly Ones/Gravitation -though IIRC it was suggested before that his amethyst appearance might link him to Willshapers. 1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: We know very little of how Yelig-nar actually works, but burning up your soul to gain powers could quite possibly be a form of Voidbinding, though not necessarily Surges in particular with non-Yelig-nar things. We know that "all of [the Unmade] have some relevance to precognition", supposedly, so there's presumably a bit more than meets the eye there, since Yelig-nar's power does not have much obvious connection to futuresight. Hmm. I wonder if all of them warp the soul / spiritual aspect in some way which can let stuff from the Spiritual Realm get in? The Thrill from Nergaoul, powers from Yelig-nar, etc.? 'Holes in the soul' vaguely analogous to (Mistborn) Spoiler Hemalurgy opening up the soul to control by Ruin, Harmony, or emotional Allomancy. Yelig-nar's devouring soul to give powers seems really Hemalurgy-esque. There is a WoB that Odium's spren have holes like that... I wonder if that means spren corrupted/enlightened by Sja-anat, or actual Splinters of Odium? Are, say, stormform or envoyform spren corrupted/enlightened "regular" spren or Splinters of Odium? Edited January 6, 2022 by cometaryorbit added new response 1
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